What does God think?

What Does God Think About the Existence
of Many "Christian" Denominations?

The gospel of Jesus records that He built one church and that all saved people were in that church. He prayed for unity and rebuked division. Denominations as we know them did not exist till centuries later. Yet today hundreds of denominations exist in the name of Christianity, claiming to be Christian. They are divided and contradict one another. This study examines the teaching of the Scriptures about the existence of denominationalism.
Introduction:
To the average person, "Christianity" includes hundreds of different denominations that disagree with one another in name, organization, doctrine, worship, and plan of salvation. Such a situation clearly constitutes division, not unity. Yet all the denominations claim to be Christian and to follow Jesus Christ.

If we really want to please God, however, we must forsake what we want and practice what He wants.

Ecclesiastes 12:13 - Man's whole duty is to fear God and keep His commands. We should be determined to do God's will, not our own.

Matthew 16:24 - To follow Jesus one must deny himself. True religion does not consist of what pleases us. It is entirely a question of what pleases God.

In this study we want to consider whether or not God is pleased by the existence of denominations. What does He really think about the religious division that exists today? Does He want unity instead? The only way to know what God thinks is to study His revelation, the Bible. So, what does the Bible say about denominationalism.


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I. The Bible Concept of the Church

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Ephesians 3:10,11 says the church is part of God's eternal wisdom. This shows that the church is important to God, so we should respect His will regarding it. What does He say should be our concept of the church, and does denominationalism fit that concept?

A. Bible Meanings of the Word "Church"
The word "church" is used two ways in the Bible:

The church in the "universal" sense
The "universal" church refers to the body or group of all saved people everywhere. It includes all who have been redeemed by Jesus' blood, have been forgiven of their sins, and have been born into His spiritual family. Bible examples of this usage are:

Matthew 16:18 - Jesus promised to build His church. The church is built on Jesus and belongs to Him ("my church"). [Cf. 1 Cor. 3:11]

Ephesians 5:23,25 - Jesus is Head of the church, and He is Savior of His body. He gave Himself for the church. So the church is the body of all people who have been saved by Christ.

Acts 2:47 - The Lord added to the church those who were saved. The "universal" church consists of all saved people everywhere because, when God saves people, He puts them in the church. In this sense, the church is always singular.

[See also Eph. 1:22,23; Col. 1:18,24; 1 Tim. 3:15; cf. 1 Cor. 12:12-14 to Acts 2:38; 22:16; Mk 16:16.]

The church in the "local" sense
The "local" church refers to a congregation of Christians in a region who have united themselves to work and worship together. According to the Bible, they have a pattern of organization, work that they are to do, and funds they use to do this work.

In the Bible, Christians were not just members of the universal body of all

saved people, but they also associated themselves into local churches. Here are some examples:

Acts 8:1 - The church which was in Jerusalem.

1 Corinthians 1:2 - The church of God which was at Corinth.

1 Thessalonians 2:14 - Churches of God which were in Judea.

Revelation 1:4,11 - The seven churches of Asia.

Galatians 1:2 - The churches of Galatia.

Note that, in this local sense, the word "church" can be used in the plural - "churches of Christ" (Rom. 16:16). Congregations existed in different localities, but they were not religiously divided. All had the same pattern of organization, doctrine, worship, salvation, etc.

[See also Acts 11:22; 2 Cor. 1:1; 8:1; Gal. 1:22; 1 Cor. 16:1; Rom. 16:1,4; 1 Cor. 14:33.]

B. The Denominational Concept of the Church
Modern denominations include many local congregations, and they claim there is one universal church composed of all "saved" people. But they add something new - the denominations. All these "saved" people in all these local churches are now divided into denominations.

The concept of a denomination, as commonly believed today, involves all the following elements:

* Each denomination is an affiliation or confederation consisting of a number of local churches.

* Each denomination has its own peculiar name, doctrine, organization, plan of worship, etc., which distinguishes it from other denominations.

* Each denomination claims it is composed of Christians, but it does not claim to contain all faithful Christians. Each denomination believes there are faithful children of God in other denominations. "There are saved people in all the denominations." "We're all going to heaven, just by different routes." "One church is as good as another." It's just a matter of personal preference, like different kinds of cars, colors of clothes, etc. So "join the church of your choice."

Ask any informed denominationalist, and he will confirm what we have said. Ask: "Are there saved Christians in your denomination?" He will say, "Yes." Ask: "Are there Christians in other denominations, who will go to heaven?" He will say, "Yes." Ask: "Does one have to be a member of your denomination to go to heaven?" He will say, "No." So each denomination claims to consist of some Christians, but not all Christians.

A denominational preacher once said the following in a letter to me:

"There is only one 'holy Christian Church,' of which Christ is the Head, but it is now made up of many denominations ... But faith in Christ is the first criterion of membership in the holy Christian Church, and we feel that such believers can be found in all Christian denominations."

C. Denominationalism Differs from God's Plan.
God's plan involves all saved people in one universal body, yet associated together in local churches. Denominationalism changes God's plan by adding the concept of denominational affiliations - associations of local churches that contain some of the saved but not all of the

saved - organizations that are more than just local churches, but less than the universal church. Denominations were unknown in the Bible. They constitute an addition, a change in God's plan. Most people can easily read their Bibles and see that this is so.

What does God think about unauthorized changes in His pattern?
What difference does it make? Will God be pleased with people who defend the denominational concept?

Galatians 1:6-9 - Any man is accursed if he preaches a gospel different from what is revealed in the New Testament. But denominationalism is different from the gospel. It is nowhere authorized in the gospel.

2 John 9 - Whoever does not abide in Jesus' doctrine does not have God. Is denominationalism part of Jesus' teaching? No! It is not revealed in His word. Therefore, those who practice this unauthorized change have not God! [See also Rev. 22:18,19.]

Is God pleased when people follow man's wisdom instead of His?
The church is part of God's eternal wisdom in the Bible (Eph. 3:10,11). Denominations are not in the Bible, so they must have come from men. If we participate in them, we are following man's wisdom, not God's. What does God think about this?

Proverbs 3:5,6 - We must not lean on our human wisdom, but must trust in God to guide us.

Proverbs 14:12 - There are ways that seem right to men, but their end is death.

Matthew 15:9,13,14 - Human traditions and commands make our service to God vain or empty. Everything religiously which God did not plant will be

rooted up. By whose command do denominations exist? Who planted them? Not God, but man. Hence, they make people's worship and service to God vain and they will be rooted up.

[See also Isa. 55:8,9; Jer. 10:23; Col.3:17; 1 Cor. 1:18-25; 2:1-5.]


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II. The Bible Teaching About Unity

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Each denomination has practices that contradict and disagree with the practices of other denominations. One says only immersion is true baptism; another says sprinkling is acceptable too. One says a child of God can fall from grace; another says this is impossible, etc. Surely this constitutes religious division and confusion.

Yet the denominational concept says God will accept all this - people in all the groups please Him and will receive eternal life. "It doesn't matter what you believe as long as you worship God sincerely," etc. Is this really what the Bible teaches?

A. Jesus' Prayer
John 17:20-23 - Jesus prayed for all who believe on Him to be one as He and His Father are one. Jesus, the Head of the church, prayed for unity. Denominations claim that He is their head, yet they practice division!

Someone may claim the denominations are all part of one universal church, though they contradict one another. But is this how Jesus and His Father were one? When did the Father and Son ever disagree about what church people should be members of? or about how to worship God? or about the plan of salvation? or about the organization of the church?

When did the Father say to the Son: "I disagree with your practices, but it doesn't matter what you believe as long as you're sincere. We're all going to the same place anyway, so just join the church of your choice"??

In what sense were the Father and the Son "one"? John 12:49,50 says they both taught the same commandments! True Bible unity consists of everybody doing the will of the Father! Those who promote other forms of "unity," while excusing the existence of denominational division, are actually rejecting and rebelling against Jesus' prayer for unity.

[Cf. John 14:31; 15:10; 17:17.]

B. Division at Corinth
1 Corinthians 1:10-13 - Paul pled with the Corinthians that there be no divisions among them (verse 10). Do denominations obey this plea? Are there "no divisions among them"? Surely they are divided, so how can anyone excuse their existence and say God will accept them?

Is Christ divided (verse 13)? Does He contradict Himself or teach contradictory things to His followers? Surely not. Such actions would make Him a hypocrite! How then can all the denominations be truly following Him and truly accepting His headship when they contradict one another? It must be true that some people are really not following Him and that is why the division exists.

If Paul rebuked the division at Corinth, should we not rebuke the far greater division in denominationalism? Did Paul tell the Corinthians to just overlook their differences because they were all pleasing to God anyway? Not at all! He told them to cease their divisive practices and seek unity by practicing

the true teachings of God (read chapters 5,12-14,15, etc.)

C. Unity of the Spirit
Ephesians 4:3-6 - We must keep the unity of the Spirit. This means that, for the seven things listed, there is only one of each in God's true plan.

Specifically, there is one true God and Father. Can a person be a true Christian and believe in many gods? "It doesn't matter what god you worship as long as you are sincere. Worshipers of all gods are going to the same place, so just worship the god of your choice"?! No. There are many false gods, but only one true God.

Likewise there is only one true body and only one true faith, and the body is Jesus' church (Eph. 1:22,23; 5:23-25; Col. 1:18,24). It is just as essential to believe in only one true body and only one true faith as it is to believe in only one true God. But denominationalism takes the one true body and chops it up into many disagreeing bodies having different and contradictory faiths.

Just as there are many false gods but only one true God, so there are many false churches and many false faiths, but there is only one true church and only one true faith.

[See also 1 Cor. 14:33; 3:3; 12:12,13,20; Phil. 1:27; Eph. 2:16; Gal. 5:19-21; Rom. 12:4,5.]


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III. The Bible Concept of Truth

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A. An Imaginary Church
Despite the contradictory practices in denominationalism, we are told that it does not matter what church we attend, so just "join the church of our choice." Let us make up a church and

see if it "does not matter" if we attend this church.

Suppose we had a church that taught all the following things:

* We follow the Bible as our sole guide in religion, but we also follow the Book of Mormon, the Catholic catechism, and Jehovah's Witness Watchtower publications as authority.

* We believe that a child of God can so sin as to be eternally lost, but we also believe that it is impossible for a child of God to so sin as to be eternally lost.

* We believe that immersion is the only true form of baptism, but we also practice sprinkling and pouring as valid forms of baptism.

* We believe that man is justified by faith alone, but we also teach that obedience is essential to justification.

* We believe that the seventh day of the week is the Christian sabbath and the first day of the week is a perversion, but we also believe that the first day of the week is the Christian sabbath for worshipping God.

* We worship the God of the Bible as our only God and Jesus as our only Savior, but we also worship the sun, moon, stars, and Satan.

What would you think of a church that believed and practiced all these contradictory doctrines? "Ridiculous! Hypocritical!" Yes, but when different churches teach these contradictory doctrines, some people tell us it "does not matter" which we join. Isn't that also ridiculous and hypocritical?

Consider what denominationalism says about Jesus. We are told that "you can find Jesus in any of the churches." And "there are people in all the denominations that are following Jesus." But if Jesus is found in all the churches, though they teach all these contradic-

tory doctrines, doesn't that make Him a hypocrite? And if all the churches are following Jesus, yet they are going in opposite directions, doesn't that mean Jesus is leading people in opposite directions? When people try to justify denominations, they make Jesus ridiculous and hypocritical!

What is the real problem with our imaginary church? The problem is that no one could believe all these contradictory doctrines because truth does not contradict itself! This is the real issue. Jesus teaches truth, and truth does not contradict itself. Denominations contradict one another. Therefore, they cannot all be teaching truth, and they cannot all be following Jesus!

B. The Importance of Truth
The Bible emphasizes the importance of truth.

John 17:17 - God's word is truth.

John 8:32 - We must know the truth to be made free from sin (v34).

1 Peter 1:22,23 - Obeying the truth is what makes us free from sin.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 - Believing error and lies will condemn us. There is one true faith, just as there is only one true God (Eph. 4:3-6).

The fundamental consequence of denominationalism is that error is just as good as truth! If the denominational concept is true, then all denominations are acceptable to God even though they flatly contradict one another regarding worship, salvation, etc. This means error is just as good as truth and unrighteousness is just as good as righteousness. Denominationalism must be wrong because it says that error does not condemn.

The whole purpose of the Pauline letters was to straighten out some errors in the early churches. While some were living close to an ideal walk, still others were holding onto pagan practices, particularly the predominantly Gentile congregations. Other more Jewish-dominant denominations were trying to hold onto their own Jewish ceremonies and practices that were essentially negated by the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
For churches that lived so closely to our Master's time on earth to be in such disarray at times, doesn't it follow that our modern day churches would have some of the same problems?
Here is the earmark for a true Christian church:
If a church teaches/preaches Jesus Christ as virgin-born, as one who walked the earth while being both fully God and fully man, as one who became our Savior through His death, burial, and resurrection, as One who sits at the right hand of God, and as the sole Source of Salvation, then that church is a legitimate Christian church.
Take out any one of these criteria, then that church cannot hold the claim as a true Christian church....per God's words through Peter, Paul, John, and James.

I agree with your post.... but they are errors in some teachings would you not agree? Some believe in sprinkling for Baptism and others believe in going under... Baptism has nothing to do with Salvation.. but one of those is wrong according to scripture... I am talking about things like this... I do not think all denominations set out to be wrong or lead people in the wrong direction but sometimes unknowingly this happens.Doesn'y actually mean that Christ has not saved you , but at the same time we must teach what the Bible teaches... that is all I am trying to say.Some churches do teach what you said - The Death, the burial, and the resurrection ect; but at the ame time the teach false things... that can lead to bigger things.

Baptism is not essential for Salvation, but is an outward and visible sign to the world of your decision and commitment. Although the baptismal technique is not defined in the Bible, there are plenty of reasons to deduce that immersion was the method they used then. Just my opinion.

You a Baptist?

Yes. I currently am a member of a Southern Baptist church, but my background is very diversified, mostly from Baptist, Methodist, and Pentacostal influences. "The Baptist Faith and Message", available at most book stores, pretty clearly defines exactly what I believe.

The Definition of Baptism

The word "baptizo"? is used nearly every time we see the word baptize, baptism, or Baptist. The word "baptizo"? in the Greek means "to make whelmed; fully wet"? according to the Strong's Exhaustive Greek Dictionary. The same root word "bapto"? is translated "dipped"? or "dip"? three times in the New Testament. Notice Luke 16:24, John 13:26 and Rev. 19:13. These are all items that have been submerged in a liquid. In Luke, it was the finger being dipped in water. In John, it was the bread being dipped in the sop. In Revelation, it was the vesture of the Lord that had been dipped in blood. There is no denying that the word baptize very strongly implies a total, complete immersion. Let us look at this even further.

In the New Testament, there are different Greek words for "?sprinkle' One is "?rhaino' and the other is "rhantismos'. The words "?sprinkle', and "?sprinkling' are all the same basic word. In all of the uses of the word, it is clear that the action being performed is indeed a sprinkling of a substance, usually blood. I said all that to say this. If sprinkling was an allowable mode of baptism, why is only the word "?baptizo' used to describe the action?

There is at least 4 different Greek words for the English word "pour"?. We see the word pour mentioned in Matt. 26:7, John 13:5 and many times in Revelation 16, just to mention a few. So if pouring was a proper administration of baptism, why is that word never mentioned during a baptism? Again, the only word to describe the word baptism is the Greek word, "?baptizo'.

Biblically, unless one has been immersed, they can not claim to have even been baptized! The very definition of the word states that!

B. The Details of Baptism

There are plenty of additional proofs as to the Biblical mode of baptism. Let us look first at Matthew 3:6. The very first time baptism is described in Scripture, we see those that are being baptized in the river. "And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins."? Matt. 3:6 There is no possible way to misunderstand this verse. It didn't say they were at the river or near the river; it says they were "in Jordan"?.

Why don't we look at the Lord Jesus Christ's baptism? Surely his example should shed some light on the proper way of doing things. In Matthew 3:13-17, we see the account of Jesus being baptized of John the Baptist.

Matthew 3:13-17 "Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."?

He asked John to baptize him and John didn't want to. John wanted Jesus to baptize him, but Jesus insisted that he be baptized. In verse 16, the Bible says that Jesus came up straightway out of the water. Is there any doubt that Jesus recognized that baptism must be performed IN WATER?

The reason that Jesus was baptized was in his own words "for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness."? In all actuality, if Jesus had never been baptized, no one would have blamed him. I mean, why would someone that was going to experience the REAL death, burial and resurrection need to show a picture of it through baptism? He did it to illustrate to us the correct attitude to have concerning this ordinance.

Wow, glad you pulled that one off the top of your head.
Or you're reading someone or some Biblical study guide (online or other) and what a learned individual says. Of course, if you go look in any place that sells Biblical study guides, you'll see more than one. Wonder why? Could it be interpretation? Could it be that some research further? Could it be that some will go until they find something that goes to what they believe in and stop? Yes, yes, yes.

I'm going to put this in simple terms for you. Go take a Spanish class or any other foreign language class. Put a sentence and have it translated. You'll get different translations, words meaning slightly different but generally the same, etc.

Honestly, and I say this in the nicest possible manner I can. Christians such as yourself, cause more people to turn away from God than you will EVER bring.

Why is that? Because you worry to much about the little things instead of worrying about the most and only important thing. Slight differences in denominations beliefs are not going to be whats important to God, thats what important to men in churches.

Oh if you want to, you can find things that will translate that women shouldn't be involved in the church, study guides that will "prove" that women shouldn't wear anything but dresses or no makeup. Heck, you can find some who will prove that men shouldn't shave or get haircuts. Better not go to a doctor. I mean if you want to go literally by whats in the Bible, I am fairly confident that a lot of your very actions/deeds/activities are not in there. The Bible is a guide. Very few places does it say DO this or DO not do this. Yes there are some, we have commandments but there are churches who probably think even coming on a message board such as this means you are sinning against God. Interpretation. Ok you get saved tonight, you plan on being baptized this weekend but you die tomorrow. Did you not finish? Were you not fully Christian because you hadn't made a public display? Yes I know you don't have to be baptized to be saved, but some think otherwise, and if you watch/read what they have, they can prove things just as well and have their own study guides that will prove it just as much as the ones you find that prove otherwise. I don't expect you to agree with this.

AMEN! [img]/LDPforum/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/getsmile.tmp007816300.gif[/img]

"Slight differences in denominations beliefs are not going to be whats important to God, thats what important to men in churches."

Wise and insightful words, my friend.

I did not pull that off the top of my head.... it was in my heart.. so there you go. I agree that interpretation varies but scripture was meant to mean one thing and that is what was said. Just a suggestion: Study Hermanetics and you will find that truth... there are rules to interpretation.You do not even know me... is this not a discussion forum? This is only one topic of many... and you have the courage to say that I lead more away than to Jesus... that is your opinion and you are entitled to that I guess. I am not worrying about the little things... but it is the small foxes that destroy the vines.. have you ever read that. Teaching false things is not a small matter.Your statement: that is not what is important to God but it is important to man... well bullseye you finally got the point here.... that is the problem it is teachings of men and not of God. This is like I said one subject that we are talking about. Why do you not make a post and allow us to talk about it? Where can you find that women cannot minister in churches... you will not... women can preach and teach... the only thing the Bible prohibits is a women pastor.. hold on I didnt say God did... so I encourage you to find something.. I never have. I do not believe everything I read in study Guids do you? I believe everything that I read in the Bible. I do not claim to know everything about the Bible, as a matter of fact there is a lot that I do not know... but I can only share what I feel like the Lord is teaching me.. and the same with you. We need to allow what we have been taught for so long to fall under subjection to the teachings of God... there were some things that I was taught when I was growing up that later I found out was not true... get it. I challenge you to find anthing concerning getting haircuts or shaving... we are not governed by the law anymore!Actions and deeds should be lined up with the fruits of the spirit... love, peace, kindness, gentleness, meekness, and so on. How does this occur? Well through allowing God to be in control of your live through the help of the Holyspirit... to lead, guide, and direct our paths. Do I always display these fruits? well of course not, but I desire to. The statement you made about the do's and dont's.. that is not true There are conditions to Gods promises... it rains on the righteous and the unrighteous... we all reap what we sow.. everyone. Coming on here and discussing is not wrong unless we begin fighting about things such as this.. fo instance if you say it is wrong and I say it isn't wrong then you stop doing and I will stay.. ha ha. The Bible teaches that baptism is not a must to salvation.. UT 1 from the Cove is exactly right.. did you read that post? And no they cannot prove you have to be because the truth is already there. I do see where you are coming from and I respect that because in reality these things do happen. But we need to be able to tell truth from error and we cannot do it on our own wisdom but only from God showing us through his Bible.

What is a slight difference in God's eyes? That is like saying it is okay to tell a little lie but a big one will not be tolerated. A lie is a lie. I believe God means exactly what he says and that is it. We can not add to or take away because a founder of the church has instructed us to do so. That is a wise saying but there is a problem with it and it is that Men are not suppose to be in control of the church .. God is.

It was in your heart, you just quoted all the Greek translations, from in your heart....wow. What are you doing slumming here then?!

Small foxes destroy vines...how profound. You know what else can destroy vines. Weed killer, no sunshine, lack of water, etc. There are more than one thing.

Now then on to you what you said about believing everything you read in the Bible. Ok where did you find all those different translations of Greek, you got a Greek Bible? You got a Greek Bible that translates itself, or are you translating or are you USING A GUIDE. Who wrote the guide!!!! See the point. Of course you don't.

You want to know something, yes, I have looked at various guides. I had one of the Bibles that had I think 4 different 'translations' side by side. You would be amazed at how different 'relatively simple' text is/was translated and how simple words could change how someone interpreted things.

You may not find anything in the study guides or ones you use. Fine. Others use other guides and do have them. Ever been to an old regular baptist church? There are some who attend them that can you tell you what they get a verse to mean, you may get something else due to reading another supplemental that made you see it another way.

Just for example, where did you find that a woman couldn't be a pastor? Was that old testament, would that be law? Has it been done away with because we're not governed by the law now? What exactly was the law? Did God say the law doesn't apply? If so, do the commandments because they were viewed as part of the law?

I think the thing is, that you are missing what Rock was saying...he was merely stating that there are different translastions and interpretation of the bible. This was not to a specific post of yours, but most of them in general. Just because that you see one thing as being true doesn't mean that I have the same viewpoint.

I understand where you are coming from on a lot of things, yet I can also see the counterpart. I think that I remember seeing something about talking to people who are non-chiristian, we should talk to them as children, for they have no knowledge. I think that most of all we should come from a place of love, "For the greatest of all of these commands is that you love one another."

Just think about what the world would be like if christians loved as much as they complain, gripe, moan, and dissent other's opininons. It really makes me mad when I see people at christimas who complain because the stores say happy holidays or season's greetings instead of merry christmas. Why not do something about it? Just because the store employee can't tell you merry christmas, it doesn't mean that you can't wish them one.

It is no wonder that people outside of the faith don't want to enter into it because most of the people in it are so miserable and spiteful that they actually act worse than they did before their conversion experience.

Thank you alienist...thats what I meant...and I think that is what others have tried to get hokie_bird to see. Honestly, I don't mind them trying to explain things to people, but focus on the subject, not the details. Chris is God's son, sent here to save us. That's the subject. Did he shave? Did he have a pet? Did he have brothers and sisters? All of that is just things that change the focus. Believe your beliefs. Believe what you take something in the Bible to read. If you believe Tim Dockerys translation says that the Greek word used meant brothers but more in the 'dear friend' brother instead of Joe Ridrock's translation which says that since Paul was Syrian and he wrote it and the word translates there to a physical brother , then go for it, but things like that are the key.

Factors

Who wrote the original word, not who provided the inspiration for the writing, but who physically wrote it. What was their race? upbringing? was Luke (a Doctor) at a higher level and used words that maybe Peter (a fishermen) wouldn't have? A writing instrument, a quill, a pen, or a pencil may all be used to write something, and depending on the person, someone may or could interchange them. When translated, some may translate them completely, one may not really have a word that translates directly. Now then, outside of the original person writings, you have the person who translates. If their is no Greek word for quill, do you use feather in place of it, since its kind of what they mean? Now if someone does does it mean the same thing as a writing instrument? Of course not.

Realize there are a lot of variables and like I said, go to Anchor bookstore or any other place that sells Bibles, study guides, etc. There are hundreds of them. If everything was so cut/dry, why would there be. Heck, if it was so cut/dry, why is there so many different versions of the Bible itself. KJV, NIV, etc.

I have a King James Version Greek and Hebrew key note study Bible. No, I cannot read original Greek or Hebrew.. it is already translated.What do you mean slumming here... this is my day job. If you mean teaching it at Oxford or something.. it was offered but I was not interested.. ha ha... I studied these things and many more for years and I just remember them.. that is all.When you say weed killer and lack of water ect; destroy vines... that is off the subjuct because that is not spiritually speaking but wordly speaking.. but I do agree. Yes flesh and blood phsically wrote the Bible ect; but are we to look at it that way? If it is not true then some have nothing to worry about then... because we will not be judged by it.Did you look up hermanetics? I read the NIV, KJV, Amplified... they mean the same just different sentence structure. Women not being able to Pastor is not in the Old Testament but in the New... many scripture references... one being that a women must be submissive to the man and not rule over man... I have seen many women preachers that are anointed by God... and Deacons.. Gods law changes not.. from the old to the new... what is meant by that is when we break one law we have broken them all... so that is why we need forgiveness and guidance from God... should we still sacrifice sheep? No, because Jesus was the sacrifice... should we no kill.. no we shouldn't... should we covet our neighbor's wife? No.. see where their is a need for obedience we must be willing to do so. The Pharisees tried to live by the law without a Savior but from that we can saw that is not possible. We live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. We must read in context to what the scripture is telling us.Do we still have to use Prophets to talk to God like Saul did.. when he had to go through Samual? No because now Jesus has made a way for us to approach him ourselves, and that is through Jesus... are you getting it?

Yes there are different translations.. and? What is the truth? Let Gods word be true and every man a liar. The statement we should talk to unbelievers as children means that they have no knoweldge about God or his word and we are to.. well just like a little kid needs to be taught the basics of life when growing up... even the adult believer needs to be taught in the same manner... it is called discipleship.. which in the Greek means "learner". Or one who learns... the 12 Apostles learned under Jesus' leadership. They were his disciples. Love is the greatest and will always be... I do love but refuse to stand by when the Bible is used in the wrong way... I cannot do anything about it only God can... but I refuse to remain silent about it. So are you saying I need to just say oh okay I see it your way and not be genuine about? Jesus said you will know "my" disciples by the fruit they bear. Yopu are right just because someone says I am a Christian doesn't mean that they are.... Actions speak louder than words.. one example we say I love God right? God says if we love him we will keep his commandment's.

Christ is the main theme... but the actual subject is What does God think? Which I started... the conversation was about denominations and has lead into this... not by me either might I add.You are the one who brought up shaving and that stuff not me....That is what reading in context means... who wrote it ect: I have already stated that. You are right there are a lot of versions... remember this man could attempt to lead us astray but God would never do that... Even the elect will be decieved... so we better know what we believe. God helps us.

I think that you missed my point, so I will try to make it a little clearer and ENLIGHTEN you to what I was saying.
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The statement we should talk to unbelievers as children means that they have no knoweldge about God or his word and we are to.. well just like a little kid needs to be taught the basics of life when growing up... even the adult believer needs to be taught in the same manner... it is called discipleship.. which in the Greek means "learner".

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Think about the best teacher that you ever had, the most memorable. More than likely that teacher was genuine, honest, caring and thoughtful. They spoke from a place of respect, not only for their field, but for the learner as well. Most of the teachers that I have fond memories of and that I felt that I learned the most from came from a place of sincerity and love. That love may have been for their subject matter, or relating to their students, or their honest compassion toward their pupils, but it was a place of concern and empathy. Not from a place of making you fear them or from condemnation. That is what comes across when you post something and I don't know if that comes from my interpretation or impression, yet I feel that I am not alone in this feeling.

There is only one truth: Jesus was the son of God, the Christ, and through him is the only way to heaven and God our father. The rest is just details. This doesn't mean that we shouldn't be aware of the details and pay attention to them, but so many times we become lost in them and can't see the forest for the trees. There is a bigger picture here and I think that sometimes we all, myself included, loose sight that the most important thing is to allow people to choose, with the full knowledge of their options, consequences, and future, that we have done our best to allow the holy spirit to speak through us.

In what way have I spoken of condemnation? Go back to my post's and copy them and show me.... because I have not. Fear of waht? Every time hell is mentioned people are like oh no he is condemning me.... This is the way God uses me... would you like me to be more nice about it and tell people what their itching ears want to hear?So please copy my condemning statements and fearful statements and allow me to read them again. Thank you.Have I said anything about your opinions or anyone elses?

Your reply to my statement says it ALL. I didn't say a specific statement, I said in general your posts come across that way. There is more to reading than the acutal words, there are contexts in which everything appears. I gave this advice to someone else on this forum that a lot of people didn't care much for: Don't say anything on here that you wouldn't say in conversation in your living room or over dinner. you are still missing the point and I am tired of trying to explain it to you when you are not ready to hear it, but that's ok everyone comes from a different standpoint and I can respect that, maybe not agree or accept it, but respect it nonetheless.

What do you mean my reply says it all... I am confused here...i am still waiting for you to show me. Hurry....I am not concerned if you like me or anyone else.. don't take it the wrong way but are you the peace maker or something? And as a matter fact I am like this at the dinner table and in my home... you are reading but if you are in front of me having a conversation it would be recieved different. If I am missing the point... tell me what I am missing... ready to hear what... you are not explaining it correctly I guess.. try again.. be patient with me... What do you not agree with? Please pick out things in my posts and tell me why you do not agree with it... until you do that I do not know how to help you.

It's not a simple fact of copying and pasting something specific, I am refering to your whole demeanor.

No I'm not a peacmaker, but I do believe in making the best effor to understand someone else and make sure that I am understood. [ QUOTE ]
you are reading but if you are in front of me having a conversation it would be recieved different

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That is exactly what I am saying, I percieve things differently than you might have intended when I read them, but I am over this right now. I don't know how to explain things any clearer to you right now, maybe I'll think of something later, but I do not want to let my anger speak for me right now.

If I question then I have a bad attitude... why are you angry... If you do not agree with what I said is one thing and that is okay but if you do not agree with what was said that is another.. and if not I just wanted to know why.

Going to attempt to explain this one more time.

You're seeing things as one way, the way you see them or interpret them and no other.

Its the old glass full thing. You see the glass, in your mind, you see it as glass half full. You don't see it as half empty. You don't see it as maybe a chipped glass. Maybe you don't notice that there is a design on the side of it. All you see half full. Not even mentioning whats in it.

If someone calls you an idiot. Do they mean you're dumb? ignorant? unlearned? Heck they could mean you're mental. Could mean you're unable to guard yourself against common dangers. Shoot they could even mean you're a layman.


I didn't have to look up Hermanetics. I know what it means. Here is one for you. Where did you study it? If you studied it yourself or with a guidebook or 2, you're subject to what you interpret it to be, or what those guidebooks show. If you went to school, you're subject to books you read, or what a teacher implies or believes. You can have multiple very educated people who can make you see it one way or another. Neither is just trying to throw the bugaboo on the other just in their studies they may be guided by God to focus on one thing, the other may be guided to focus on another.

I'll give you an example, in Literature form. Canterbury Tales. I had multiple teachers who would teach you who was the 'good', who was the 'bad' in it. Years ago I read a book, and it made the Knight, who was always marked as one of the best and one of the good, into one of the worst and used examples, historical references and alternate meanings that certain things meant in context. Was they right? Was the others wrong? Who knows. Was every teacher who thought or had studied and came to one determanation wrong? Or was the other wrong? Or maybe at the end of the day, there was some right in both, some wrong in both.

Question ...what does the Bible say about women submissive to men? Is that law? or is it not?

Now does it say women submissive to men? or does it say wife submissive to her husband.

Now is that the same thing? What if a woman isn't married? Does she not have to be submissive, can she be a pastor then?

You said rule over men. Does that mean in the house, in government, in the church. Does it mean literally rule? If so, is anybody who has a Woman representative in the Government bound for hell, because they aren't following the law. What about if there is a woman judge? You going go to court and say your honor I dont listen to you because you're a woman?

Since you didnt answer this question in another post, what church do you attend? I would really like to know, and possibly hear you teach sometime if the Lord leads me there.

God is not the author of confusion. That title is reserved for Satan. The reason you will never find a perfect church on this side of eternity is because it has something in it that is imperfect: man, and man is by nature, sinful. Denominations are the result of confusion more than anything else to my notion. I am a member of a Southern Baptist church, not because I'm a Southern Baptist, but because I'm a Christian who has been led of the Lord to serve there. I DO NOT AGREE 100% with their doctrine, but because I am a member there, I do my best to honor that membership and keep my opinions to myself. The teachings of Southern Baptists and their understanding of the Scriptures is closer to what I believe than any other group or denomination I've ever encountered.

A question from Rocketeer: "Just for example, where did you find that a woman couldn't be a pastor? Was that old testament, would that be law? Has it been done away with because we're not governed by the law now? What exactly was the law? Did God say the law doesn't apply? If so, do the commandments because they were viewed as part of the law?"

The New Testament (per Apostle Paul) lays out guidelines for officers of the church, and women are not included in the offices of pastor or deacon. (1 Timothy 3)You'll find that most SB churches in our area stick to these guidelines quite stringently, as you'll not even see many previously divorced men serving as a deacon or a pastor.
Does that mean a woman can't serve, can't be a leader in the church?? NO!!! Women have been and continue to be the backbone of many churches in many areas of service. God has clearly defined the role of men and women in church leadership. It's hard to get past the "husband of one wife" criteria for the office of pastor or deacon, especially if you're a woman! [img]/LDPforum/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]


The Ten Commandments are no more, as they have been condensed: Jesus gave us only two, which He clearly demonstrated for us: Love God above all else, and our neighbor as ourself.

What am I seeing as one way? Hermanetics is hermenetics... what do you mean, where did I study it? I have listened to many men teach different things... I do not believe everything that I hear. If the Bible teaches it then I believe it. But one fact remains whether it be in the Canterbury tales or any other place.... You must read for yourself and come to a conclusion. Another is he was either good or bad... which one was he? Some say Jesus is bad... but when you read the Bible what would you say about him?

What does it matter whether it is the law or the new covenant? What is meant by law I have already explained... but when it says we are no longer under the law that is saying we no longer are under condemnation for our sins... we are covered by the grace of God... but we are not delivered from disobeying God's word... whether it is the New or Old Testament.We are supposed to be submissive to one another... and wives are supposed to be submissive to the husband.. Can a women be a Pastor... read for yourself and research... but through my own study I have came to the conclusion that they are not suppose to be.If a women rules you ask do they go to hell? I do not have the authority to decide that... that is up to God... in my opinion God loves them... and they would not go to hell if they were born again believers. I n the case with the women judge... no I would not say to her I will not listen to you because you are a women... then I would be preaching in jail.. ha ha

Going back to an old post...and something that was currently commented on, on here.

You made the post that this topic is about, I said "wow glad you pulled that off the top of your head"...
do you remember what your reply was? If not, read...you replied...."I did not pull that off the top of my head.... it was in my heart"

Yet it sure looks like it was here

http://www.gospelway.com/church/denominations.htm

This, and other things lately, are at least in my view (and maybe to a lesser extent Mik_Mo and others issue.

Discuss what you think, what you view, don't go to sites and get us bible lessons, everybody is capable of doing that (since to be posting here, they have to be on the internet and unless those sites are membership only, they have as much access to them as you do). If you want to post on a topic, then credit the site or link to the site and then mention what you think about it, not just cut/paste jobs.

Religious discussion should be that, discussion. If we wanted to put what someone else thinks, then thats fine and dandy, but acknowledge that.

The way you had written previous entries, I think I commented that you got the information off of a website ,and you at least tried to imply that nope, it was what you thought.

The fact that appears to not be the case, if nothing else, makes you appear very 'questionable' in your attempts.

I mean even on the sports forum, when someone comments about rumors or news, they either quote where they got it, if they quote things word for word, or discuss things in their own words.

Yes I agree I did read that article some time ago.. yes so what is the big deal? It was on my heart.... that is what people do.. they read something it sticks with them then they talk about.... you and another person continually test my crediability.. that is okay.. why do you not post a lot on here? Anaylize me if you wish... no big deal.

Maybe Mikmo needs to stop reading my posts or at least stop whinning about them..... I do discuss what I think... when I copy and paste articles it is put there for a response... just because they have access to them doesnt mean that I need to stop posting them in my view... I do not see the problem in it. I have recently added the url address to the articles..... what if I just signed underneath them and say not my original work.. what that be okay? By me posting is aying that I agree with it and now I am looking for a response to the article. I NEVER ATTEMPTED TO IMPLY ANYTHING!! See there you go assuming.... that is not true. If you think what I post is questionable or that I am that is up to you... you have the freedom to read or not to read as everyone else does also. I will try to specify everything in the future.

Look, you're missing the point. I'm tired of trying to explain this to you, but I will try once more, because I am a patient person.

The purpose of this board is to discuss views, religious views. It is not a pulpit.

It is fine to discuss what you think on a subject, but you are not posting what you think about a subject, you are posting what someone else thinks.

This is the reason I was kind of smart before when I said glad you pulled that all off the top of your head, and you said it was in your heart.

No, maybe the subject was in your heart, but read the things and analyze them to yourself if thats the case. If someone asks on this board "Do you think this church is right or wrong", give YOUR opinion, NOT A WEBSITE'S OPINION. If you tend to agree, use your own words, not someone else's.

You are right about the freedom to read, but there is a purpose that this board was created. You have the ability to follow the rules that the board was created for or you have the ability to not be on here, its really that simple.

When people post on this board, they are wanting to know what others think or feel. Great, quote a scripture if its relevant, but give your opinion, not whomever posts the view or sermon on another website.

On a similar discussion earlier, you reading what Billy Bob posts doesn't mean you studied anything, it means you are reading what someone else thinks, believes. It is therefore subject to their own beliefs, views, studies. If you can't understand what the difference is, then sorry, maybe this board isn't for you. I am fairly sure that I do not stand alone in this, but if you disagree, you more than have the right to disagree, but we have the right to run the board(s) as we see fit, not as you see fit.

By the way, your first quote, they read it and it sticks with them. Then by God, post on what sticks with you, not copy/paste. I dare say most of the people who read here and post here would have a lot more respect for what you say, what you post IF you posted what YOU think, not what a site tells you THEY think.