The Importance of Drum Heroes

Well said. I may have to quote you on this one.

Best,

Andy

nice post but I have to interject one thing about Vinnie, yes he and Steve Smith both idolized Tony Williams. But Tony was self taught and just pulling these things out left and right from an early age, Vinnie is totally into the math part of playing, he took both what Tony had and then what Gary Chaffee had to offer and made it into something that's just unreal.

Some drummers write the book; others just a chapter. Thanks for all the kind words, everybody. Where else could a punk kid like me quote the Bible, John Lennon and Pretty Purdie all in one post except here in the fantastic House of Drumming?

Randy, if I'm not mistaken Tony studied extensively with Alan Dawson in Boston.

Well said.

Yeah I might be mistaken.

Tony’s dad played horn in Boston bands with Alan Dawson and in Miles’ words: “He started Tony at nine.” I met Tony backstage at the Caravan of Dreams in Ft. Worth in March of ’87 during his three night stand there. He was a little chubby guy smoking this big cigar sitting on a couch. “Sit down, relax,” he said after I hammered on the dressing room door the first night after the first set. I was nervous as a cat but Tone was gracious as hell. I showed him my Tony Williams scrapbook and he asked me if he could have an article from a British magazine he’d never seen before. It was about the Tony Williams Lifetime and about how Tony’s asshole management and Jack Bruce’s equally anal management had precipitated the demise of the FIRST jazzrock fusion group EVER: the original Tony Williams Lifetime. (If you don’t own Emergency you need to be sent to bed without your paradiddles.) What do you think I said when Tony Williams asked ME for something? I said yes. I said hell fucking yes, Tone, what else can I do for you, sir? (If I met Vinnie I’d kneel on one knee and bow like he was a king.) During Tony’s stint in Ft. Worth I talked with him every night. He knew I was a drummer and was really righteous around me. So was Buddy Rich when I met him.

I agree, "There is nothing new under the sun"
Whether it is art, mechanics, or cooking...all have been influenced by those preceding before them.

One theory that deals with this states that there is intrinsic knowledge vs accumulated knowledge.
Intrinsic knowledge is found in the founder; the early fathers...Newton, Pascal, etc. Accumulated knowledge is seen in Einstein, Gates, etc.

If you believe in the 2nd law of thermodynamics and entropy--that everything is winding down-- then it might be suggested the ability of those from yesteryear had greater cognitive abilities. They were closer to the origin of beginnings or genesis.

If a guy found a pair of drum sticks at a White Elephant fair, went home and started hitting the couch until he was playing beats, rudiments, etc. he would not understand "what" he was playing, but he would indeed be actually playing some type of rudimental configuration. Yet, this person would still be influenced (unconsciously) by music, rhytyhm, drum sounds through many sources--radio, CD's, TV commercials, etc. The mind has picked up these organized sounds.
This person's gift or talent is to take these unconscious influences and bring them to fruition--seeing drum sticks, taking them home, and making noise with them.

Can one trully isolate themselves from influence and be a total original?

IMO, the genius is one who takes what is available in whatever form and absorbs it into a unique expression which then serves as an influence to others. What drummers have influenced an entire generation? Those are your guys.

Want to learn more... See Howard Gardner's Creating Mind's. Awesome book looking at six key figures from different genres, finding common strands that make them genius. The six figures are;
Freud, Einstein, Picasso, Stravinsky, T.S. Elliot, Martha Graham, Gandhi

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 17, 2003 06:07 PM: Message edited by: PocketPlayer ]</font>

There’s nothing new under the sun.

I see Cobham in Chambers, Bozzio in Minneman, Gadd in Weckl and Williams in Vinnie. These guys’ influences are showing and it’s not a bad thing. Drumming is a tradition and as drummers we must respect that (much the way a noir writer respects constricted genre conventions) and it’s up to new drummers to enlarge the traditions by moving them forward.

I wouldn’t want to live in a world that had Vinnie, but didn’t have Tony. It’s been speculated before that Williams had his own voice and that Vinnie copped Tone’s offbeat sticking patterns and bizarre licks. What Vinnie (and Weckl, et al) have done is picked up the torch and blazed the trail anew. That’s why it’s okay to steal licks from your drum hero. That’s why it’s okay to have a hero! It's okay to grow a mustache like Bonzo, wear a medallion like Ed Shauhnessy or have a badge with your initials on your bass drumhead. Whatever gets you to the light. We all know better than to (if I may use Bernard Purdie's exquisite verb) 'appropriate' the Walk This Way beat and then ask everybody how they like our new moves.

Heroes, to me, are drummers whom I admire and whose high standards are a constant motivation and inspiration. Maybe they’re more an example than a hero, but call them what you will their commitment to the excellence of the craft is stimulating as well as challenging. Heroes/examples/mentors/influences make us want to play better. Their rhythmic styles are often beacons pointing the way for us in the darkness, or at least illuminating the possibilities, the roads less traveled. Years ago I saw a remote beach in the Philippines that looked like it had never seen a footprint or litter or pollution. Words can't describe what an open canvas that represented to me. I felt exhalted and the blood roared in my ears.

You and I may be able to absolutely shut down the best drummers of Lone Ranger, Wyoming or Greasespot, North Dakota but the only yardstick we need to measure ourselves by is The Greats. We should strive for greatness and nothing less every time we get behind the traps, forever pushing our own particular envelope, honoring the tradition. Yeah, I can play a fiery single stroke roll, alas not as fiery as Buddy’s or Max’s or Vinnie's, but that ain’t gonna stop me from trying. Quite the opposite, I'll just try harder. In fact we might have those cats in Greasespot scared to death!

GREAT post.

Cool post. Is there really a place called Greasespot?

Interesting story about Tony Williams. Chubby guy on a couch. Pretty wild.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 19, 2003 01:34 AM: Message edited by: jonthibault ]</font>

AWESOME POST MAN!!!!
This stuff should be in MD or something. For me , it has made me realize that Drum Heroes are indeed quite a healthy thing..I mean everything we play today, everything that we EVER copped,and anything we have ever seen has been handed down from generation to generation. 5/8 was ON about the direct lineage of drumming influences concerning the drummers that he mentioned...
I once read an interview with Jeff Ballard (Chick Corea's current drummer.)and he said something like this . "If you listen to music from different cultures; you will find reasons to play things."
Obviously, we all have to realize that Warren "Baby" Dodds was practically the first drumset player in history....But if you look at how things have turned out now..The evolution of the drumset has gone leaps and bounds...Musically and in most other ways as well. It's breath taking!!
Me personally I love alot of different and contrasting styles of music...But you know, Great music and great drumming seem to exist everywhere regardless of the style...But the best drummers have something special...that sets them apart from us clones and imitators...They have thier own sound , own style, GREAT FEEL, and in alot of cases insane chops...And when I hear that stuff... I WANNA TRY TO PLAY IT!!
Regardless if I can't do it as good as the drummer I took the lick or groove from...It's just that feeling..that rush...most importantly for me the educational value of trying to do something insane like that...Which usually pays off in a big way later on down the road..

Just my $0.05

This board is great!!!

When I think of Baby Dodds or Chick Webb (especially the reverence Buddy had for the little guy) I feel very humble, yet proud to be part of that dizzying (pun intended) exciting heritage. It's like what Randy said here about Vinnie applying the math to Tony's playing: we're all dipping from the same well, using the same influences, ADDING to the language and it is a language to use as sure as I'm assembling these words. As contributers we define ourselves; tomorrow any one of us could play something that would put us on the map. Even if we die without having ever made a recording, we're still part of the whole. If all you do is play covers in a crummy bar, you're STILL CONTRIBUTING and can be justifiably proud. Hell, if all you do is sit at home practicing triplets or pata fla flas, you belong!

Man, Five Eight, you should be on the motivational lecture circuit! Makes me feel like practicing!

Coming to a dive near you!

You're the chap that made the remark about the fluorescent cocksock in that other thread, right? That's the funniest thing I've ever read, my sides STILL hurt.

yes, right on the money. i figure that Tony was influenced by Alan Dawson, Elvin, Roy Hanes & Max...but in another way, i kind of feel like he was just a musical genius where his ideas just exploded out of him...all he needed was some direction. kind of like Bonham...who influenced this british son of a bricklayer ?

The avant garde heavily influenced Tony too. When he joined Miles in 1963, Elvin had already been with Trane almost three years. In 1960 'free jazz' began making waves and dividing the jazz community. Modern Drummer won't tell you this (not unlike the way they whitewash a lot of drummers's drug habits) but if you're interested in where Tony nicked a massive chunk of his style check out the albums Ornette Coleman recorded in 1960 and '61 with Ed Blackwell on drums. I recommend This Is Our Music, Ornette, and Ornette On Tenor. You'll say to yourself: "Damn, that's Tony, without the technique." I've never seen this theory advanced in any magazine or heard it discussed anywhere. I listened to some Ornette and it was like finding a missing page of history. The cornerstones and lynchpins of Tony's free concept are all there: the seemingly random playing, the shifting pulse, broken rhythms cast aside like gum wrappers. No doubt Tony was the better player. He brought precision and chops to Blackwell's ideas. And made them his own.

Making statements like that is bound to get me in trouble with many readers here. Please put my theory to the test. If you've never listened to Ornette, you're gonna love Ed Blackwell.

cool 5/8...i will check it out. on the drug habits, the Miles autobiography sez it all (great read). and thanks for the PM on the Bonham book:

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/boo...79306580&itm=1

Geoff

What happens when you come back after vacation away from the NET?

Spending hours catching up reading two weeks worth of HOD Posts!!! LOL!! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Five Eight,

I couldn't have said it better. My heroes have always been a major motivating factor too. I must say that some positive angles of my playing came through by listening to the way some of them approached those specific dimensions of drumming. I.E: Feel, pocket, technic, musicianship, etc...

Nothing new under the sun indeed...

[img]biggrin.gif[/img]

EXCELLENT POSTS, GENTLEMEN!

Answer me this: from where did Elvin get his drumming style? (This question was put to me by Chick Corea one day when we were talking about various drummers, including Tony ... Chick had a fairly comprehensive knowledge of the chain of influences, confluences, etc., apparent or otherwise, of most drummers' vocabularies/lexicons, but challenged me to name a source for Elvin's revolutionary playing style ... he and I were both stumped by that one.)

Greetings from Birmingham. Oh yes ... Steve Houghton presented an excellent performance and short clinic hit; his shirt was indeed colorful.

As promised: I wore black.

Cheers,
Peter Erskine

Good question Peter.....Not sure of the answer but can see where Chick was coming from being a drummer himself.

The Miles Davis documentary on DVD is awesome.

I remeber reading somewhere that Elvin's style of swing was influenced by his drum corps experience......It makes alot of sense.... Listening to Elvin's swing during my long walks has reinforced what he said regarding swing. Elvin's grooves are march - like in a strong way. The 2 feel is very prevalant..Especially when he swings ballads with the sticks as opposed to the brushes....
I remeber he said something about JP Sousa being an influence of his in the his drum corp days....


That's my hypothesis....
Please feel free to elaborate..

This is a most appropriate category to write this: Drum Heroes. One was certainly witnessed today at the Birmingham PAS Day of Percussion. His name: Peter Erskine. What a clinic...very informative with all of the right information you'd like to hear. Afterward I had the pleasure of meeting him and having a chuckle concerning the shirt comments made on the 'Peter Erskine' thread. I can attest to the fact that Peter wore a very elegant, form fitting black shirt purchased in Bangkok if I'm not mistaken. Houghton's shirt was...well, he may post on here sometime so I'll leave the comments to myself. [img]biggrin.gif[/img] Once again Peter, thanks for the fantastic clinic and the pleasure of meeting you.

Clint Hopkins

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor=""><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not sure of the answer but can see where Chick was coming from being a drummer himself. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Randy, am right in thinking that it was Chick playing drums with Michael Brecker on 'Confirmation' at the end of The Three Quartets album?

Elvin's influences, that is a tough one. I can only guess. Perhaps the music of Duke Ellington, Chick Webb. Roy Haynes comes to mind. I imagine he listened to many international records, African drum masters etc... He is very polyrythmic, reminds me of the way time is broken up in a Ghana style. His style seems very African, so that would be my major guess. [img]eek.gif[/img]

Speaking of Elvin, he played at the Jazz Bakery tonight and will be playing there on Sunday. If you are in the Los Angeles area and have some free time tomorrow, I recommend you see him play. I went to both of his shows tonight and he was in fine form. After the two shows, I had the chance to meet him for a few minutes. He was a gentleman in the truest sense of the word. My music teacher was a student of his 30 years ago. My music teacher always told me that along with being an amazing drummer, Elvin Jones is one of the best/kindest people he has ever met. After meeting Elvin tonight, I can see why my music teacher has so much admiration, love, and respect for Elvin.

Concerning Elvin’s influences I suggest exploring the obvious. The Jones family had more than it’s share of musical talent and unleashed three great jazzmen into the world. Elvin’s brothers were Hank Jones (piano) and Thad (trumpet). No doubt the jam sessions in that household were loose and uninhibited, in some small way accounting for Elvin’s approach to post-bop drumming. Elvin says the band instructor at his school, Fred Weist, was quite good, but most kids in Pontiac were too impoverished to afford private drum lessons. This makes me think that Elvin probably didn’t have access to a lot of world music as a youngster either (or anything.) Before he joined Trane at age 33 he worked with Billy Mitchell, Mingus, Donald Byrd, and Bud Powell. The Village Vanguard record with Sonny Rollins in 1957 sounds tame compared to early Trane recordings like My Favorite Things (’60) and Coltrane’s own Village Vanguard dates (’61). By late ’62 Jones was really coming into his own on the European Tour. About this time the Quartet exchewed 45 minute sets and began playing continuously in clubs. One eyewitness clocked a Trane and Elvin duet at an hour and forty five minutes. An insider of the band says the saxophonist would often do that to sober up his drummer but those free-flights into the unknown had to unfetter the imagination and possibly channel the music of the spheres. Imagine duking it out with a genius non-stop for two hours a night for years on end. Coltrane had to be the forge that tempered the fire and steel in Elvin’s playing. And the group worked! Unlike Miles’s men of leisure, the Coltrane quartet was always on the road. As the years went by Jones’s drumming developed into something indistinguishable from the long-gone Sonny Rollins days. And Elvin was still nowhere close to the wildman he was on Sun Ship (’65) during the height of Trane’s LSD experimentation.

Billy Ward tells the great story of being in Manny’s and forced to choose between a lesson with Tony or one with Elvin. Billy chose Elvin because he understood where Tony was coming from. He had no idea where Jones was from. My best guess is the Planet Coltrane. Rarified air indeed, gentlemen. Has anyone ever seen a picture of Elvin when he wasn’t smiling?

I don't have that cd but it's very possible. In the Time Warp video he talks abit about being a drummer and the way he writes music and loves to see how the drummer is going move around his percussive playing on the piano. Or words to that idea.

I forgot about his family. I guess I'll wait to see what Peter says.

Read if u dare!! 5/8 suggested i post this.

YEAH!.Drum heros.Nice subject.When i first started,and w. the influence of my first predominant teacher,my tastes in music widened in a big way.My household was always full of music.My dad had a sweeping range of tastes in music.

I listened to alot of different drummers at the time.Because of my youthful enthusiasm and lack of knowledge in history,i never really had one major hero at the time.I did have many drummers that i listened to alot(like a rotation).In fact i can tell u who they were:Stewart Copeland,Manu Katche,Gadd(but only certain recordings),all the Bowie sidemen,John Wright(NomensNo),Ted Simms/Jon Card(Canadian punk rock innovaters),Vinnie w. Zappa,Earl Hudson(Bad Brains),Billy Cobham(Manivishnu era),Fish(Fishbone),The James Brown Drummers,certain configurations of Parliament,Mark Brezicki,Phil Gould,Phil Collins,Simon Phillips,and a slew of punk/thrash drummers, and Hip-Hop.At the same time my teacher made me a jazz drummer sampler,which was very incomplete but featured:Tony(80's solo albums),Jack(SomeK.Jarret stuff),Philly Jo,Max,Art Blakey,Elvin,Buddy(who i was already familiar with),Joe Morello,and Jeff Watts.At the time i was involved in high school big band,so i lifted(and learned) stuff from all of them,even though most of the afformentioned were not big band drummers,it gave me some ideas to go by.At night,i played punk rock shows.I had zero reverence for the history,or even why i was playing the things that i did.

As it happened i was in a long term band for most of my 20's.Very busy with touring and carving out a name for my self.At the time my resoursces for practicing(like i obsessively did when i was a teen) was limited by difficult access to my space,and at the time was living in a smaller city,not enuff good teachers.I still read my MD,worked out of "The New Breed" book,but never really understood or was cognizant of what it means to be a complete drummer.On one of the last tours i did with said band,we did a show in Edmonton,Alberta.A good drummer friend of mine,Marek, was the house engineer.It so happened that i played drums well that night(one of the few times i recall actually being happy with a live show).After the show Marek and i talked drums.He told me i sounded like if Tony Williams was playing in the Police on speed.I was flattered,but i didnt know exactly why he mentioned Tony,all i knew of Tone at the time was a few solo songs,and that he was a legend,but had absoloutely NO IDEA how important he was.

A few years later i moved to Vancouver.Got a lesson in how far i had to go when the band i joined out here played a show that featured one of(in my opinion) Canada's best drummers Ray Garroway.He works alot out here,and i kind of followed his carreer a bit.At the time he was playing in a Emo-alternarock band signed to Warner Bros.The thing that impressed me about him was that he exclusively used Traditional grip in his technique,and just plays beautifully.We talked and he said some very kind things about my playing,and of course i couldnt stop raving about his.I had fooled around with trad. grip. over the years,but could never get the hang of it,but i liked how i played differently when i would attempt to use it.He gave me his number to call him for anything.

I met my future wife around this time.She gave me a tape she made at a friends place of Trane's'A Love Supreme'.And a Blue Note box set that featured all the greats(selections featuring Tone,Roy,Elvin,Motian,and many more).Around the same time my band did a demo at this studio with an engineer who i disliked.He said i was a weak link in the band.Now by this time i was very able to accept criticism from anyone-it can only help you.But he really pushed a button,because i want to be liked,a part of my drummer ego that hadnt been appealed to,was greatly affected by his insensitivity.After a few days of thinking about my instrument and a 8 hr pratice session,in which i smoked a bit of the herb,and listened to "A Love Supreme" and the box set in its entirety,i had one of many rapid moments of clarity.I needed lessons.And the first lesson i learned on my own was that i needed to research the drummers that came b4 me.Listening to Elvin freaked me out,i hadnt really ever been exposed to that way of playing jazz.I dismissed jazz previous to all this because i didnt(and still dont) care for the jazz police vibe that is attached to the music.And i felt that no great strides had been taken presently with the genre(i still feel that way,except for the exsisting masters and FEW bands that take shit to a new level).But as i listened to the Blue Note recordings and read the liner notes,the history of what i was doing most of my life was unfolding right b4 me.I decided(another moment of clarity!) that i wanted to revamp my technique based on seeing Ray,Vinnie Colaiuta,and Weckl use Trad. grip with excellant resultsTony passed around this time and my buddy Shane gave me the MD T.W. tribute issue.Oddly enuff i ran into Ray moments later.He was distressed about the loss of Tony .He spied my MD and he flipped thru it.I let him know that i had been thinking of taking lessons,and i felt that he could really help me.We hooked up at my space the next day.I hadnt even had a chance to begin reading the MD because of obligations that day.Also my wife bought a brand new computer.I was playing an intense game of drumset history with the internet,i went nuts listening to all the greats,and realizing how much i owed to myself to understand the history.

Ray showed up.He brought some video of Vinnie and ALL of the 2nd great Miles Quintet recordings.I had originally thought(bear in mind these events all happened in a 2 day span,so at that moment i was to be everchanged) that Elvin and Roy Haynes,and moments of Max were the cornerstones of Jazz Drumming.I had no idea about how Tony came up in his carreer,and his contribution to the music and the instrument.Ray and i smoked a joint,and we talked,for a very long time about what i wanted to do,his back ground(Ray is a Berkely graduate and studied under Efrain Toro,it was Efrain that introduced Ray to Tony!)and he vented his grief over HIS drum hero Tony Williams.He really built up much excitement about talking about Tony,and how Ray was forever changed by listening to him.Now i do realize that doing research doesnt begin or end with just focusing on Tony or Elvin,or even Buddy,but because of my punk rock background,i was always lookin for something different in my drummers.When i understood the context in the time period of these Miles recordings,it appealed to the punk rock side.Those artists in the 60's were the antithesis of punk rock against the near redundent forms of swing and bop.

Ray set up my transformation by prefacing Tony's age at the time of the recording he was about to play me.Ray said,"Tony was 17 at the time man!!Remember that as u listen to this one track.This will change you man!!!!".

Ray put on Mile's"Gingerbread Boy".

I dont know really how to put into words how hearing Tony this way,in that point in jazz history,how much it hit me.

I felt like i was punched.I never ever had heard drums played that way.Had never heard a jazz ride played that way.

I was moved in so many ways in a span of 7 minutes.I never have been so blown away about a drummer before.I actually felt so much:joy, reverence,understanding,discovery,happiness,and a bit of sadness as i FULLY understood what Tony had done for us.He changed drums forever.I absolutely could not believe he was 17 at the time.And much to my regret, i lambasted my self for not discovering him earlier on in my life.

After the track was finished,Ray and i just laughed.We laughed in total joy over that performance.Ray was laughing at me,"Dude,u hafta see your face!!!".I honestly sat for a good 10 minutes trying to take it all in.Ray said he did the same when Efrain unleashed Tony to his ears,and i think Ray really enjoyed the moment of passing along Tony's magic into the fabric of my physche.

After some more chatting he schooled my hands.Showed me how to use trad. grip properly.What was to be a 1 hour lesson,ended up being nearly 9 hours.That particular day ,everything about my drumming changed.That was my turning point a a drummer.I cant ever possibly express the gratitude to Ray for ushering in a revolution in how i approached drums,and as i found out later as i got home,there was more Tony revelations to be had.Ray lent me his Miles recordings to study.

I went home and blabbed incessantly to my wife about my experience.She listened patiently,and suprised me with a gift.She gave me Tony's first Blue Note recording as a leader-the very first version of Lifetime,titled Lifetime.Then she gave me"The Tony Williams Lifetime-Spectrum:the Anthology.3 eras in Tonys playing all given to me in one day.That same night,i stayed up with my unread T.W. MD and the Tony recordings.

After a first thourough read of the issue i finally settled down.Daryl,it was so amazing to have it all soaked in.The MD was so vital to bookend my incredible day.I reread it again and followed John Riley's Style and analysis about Tony.And followed the 'Nefertiti' transcript.I refer to that issue still to this day.Such a good read.And my search for expression on the drumset was quantified by Tony.

I had found my hero....................Tony if u can see me typing this...Thank You for your gift.........I love everything you were............and am indebted to you.

Im still building my Tony collection.

There u have it.I seriously could write more,but i think u have a clear understanding of how much i love the man!!

"We can be heroes,just for one day.."-Bowie

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 01, 2003 03:37 PM: Message edited by: beats ]</font>

Did you smoke before this post? Or just when you listen to Tony? [img]biggrin.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/cat.gif[/img]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor=""><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Dazzler:


am right in thinking that it was Chick playing drums with Michael Brecker on 'Confirmation' at the end of The Three Quartets album?</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>
It was indeed dazzler...i can Confirm that.

Fantastic playing by Gadd brecker ect on that album. Recommended by Neil robinson in RHYTHM.