Current state of the church in America

Very interesting article at the following link concerning the state of the traditional church in America. I've posted a few quotes to give you it's flavor so you can determine if you want to read the entire article or not. My thought: I know numerous believers who have left the traditional church, myself included. Most of us, I beleive, are looking for a more pure form for the expression of our faith.

http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?P...naUpdateID=201

"Barna estimates that the local church is presently the primary form of faith experience and expression for about two-thirds of the nation's adults. He projects that by 2025 the local church will lose roughly half of its current "market share" and that alternative forms of faith experience and expression will pick up the slack."

"That growth is fueling alternative forms of organized spirituality, as well as individualized faith experience and expression. Examples of these new approaches include involvement in a house church, participation in marketplace ministries, use of the Internet to satisfy various faith-related needs or interests, and the development of unique and intense connections with other people who are deeply committed to their pursuit of God."

"Having been personally frustrated by the local church, I initiated several research projects to better understand what other frustrated followers of Christ were doing to maintain their spiritual edge. What emerged was a realization that there is a large and rapidly-growing population of Christ-followers who are truly want to be like the church we read about in the book of Acts. We began tracking their spiritual activity and found that it is much more robust and significant than we ever imagined - and, frankly, more defensible than what emerges from the average Christian church. But, because the Revolution is neither organized nor designed to create an institutional presence, it typically goes undetected."

Such a radical transformation changing of the American church, and no one has any comment? I don't get it.

Revelation gives you the different stages of church status, from Ephesus which had left "its first love" to Laodecea, which was lukewarm (neither hot nor cold). Its hard to find a church that is on fire for God, because we as human beings are weak and have not followed His Great Commission to the letter. Its not enough just to win the lost to Jesus. The church must also be busy about teaching the new Christian to be an effective tool of the Holy Spirit. What I have found in my Christian walk of over 30 years is that if I feel "distant" from God, then it's my fault. God doesn't move away from us, we move away from Him. The same is true for the church. What I have also found is that a lot of churches play to the world, that is, things that are worldly are now accepted by the church, whereas 50 years ago they were not. A lot of churches have surrendered to liberal or moderate pressure to allow women and homosexuals as pastors or deacons. God, through Paul, outlined both the man's and the woman's role in the church. My church will not even allow a man that has been divorced to serve as a deacon. Conservative thinking? You better believe it!
I would estimate that over 50% of churches in America are more liberal than moderate, with the remaining percentage to be moderate and conservative churches. The conservative churches are probably a minority now.
I would also say that in our area the percentage of conservative churches far outweigh the moderate or liberal churches. There are many in my immediate area that I would feel comfortable worshipping in, because they are Bible-believing, Bible-teaching churches, with good leadership - leadership that recognizes that their growth comes from God.

Do you think the typical, traditional southwest VA church more closely resembles the Biblical model or the Constantinian model? In my understanding and thought, the 2 are diametrically opposed models.

There are really NO churches typical of the early Biblical church. Why? The church of that day was filled mostly with converted Jews, (remember, Peter had to have a special vision from God to convince him to take the Gospel to the gentiles)whose background was all about Biblical principles and laws that had filled their lives since infancy. You won't find people now selling all that they own to help other members of the church either.
The church today has no resemblance to the Constantinian church in my estimation, as it was more closely tied to the state than to true religion. Although Constantine may have elevated Christianity to legal status in Rome, he also tried to force it down some throats. I think it was more about ritualistic traditions than anything else.
In essence though, I suppose you would have to associate our local churches to the early church, in that Jesus Christ and the leadership of the Holy Spirit was/is the focus, or at least that's what we're supposed to be about.

I agree that there are no churches that are typical of the early church - but there should be. Why should the original mission of the church change? It shouldn't, but most (and maybe all) of the churches today masquerade behind some veil of religiosity - put your best face on when tou come in here, as I once was told by a pstor. My bottom line is this: ALL people, including Christians and church-goers - have problems, Yet they are content to pretend that all is well, they have no problems. At the sme time, the "heathen" are exercising better discernment that the church-goers - they realize that most (nay, all) of the church goers have problems, won't admit it, pretend all things are well, and perceive the churchians as hypocrites. And I must agree with them.

The perception of many is that Christians go to church to show they are "religious". A true Christian goes because that was the Lord's edict, that we should congregate together. Church, as such, is supposed to be many things: worship, reverence, obedience; receiving healing, encouragement, and direction. Our downfall is that we have let church become more about man and less about God. Are there perfect churches out there? No! But there are some who are really trying to get it right.

Have we determined how we "assemble ourselves together" by looking through the glasses of the conventional church, or have we missed something: Possibly, our assembling can be done without the confines of tradition? A living room? That's how the first century church met. But down through history, especially beginning with Constantine and continuing with catholicism, church as we know it today has adpoted and adapted to so many pagan customs and rituals (clergy, choirs, elevated altars, ecclesiastical garments, etc).

In II Timothy, chapter 2 verse 4, The Bible tells us to Preach the Word, to be instant in season and out of season. This is meant for all believers. The Apostle Paul, in his many letters and visits, did just that. The church building has become a traditional symbol of the church, but church is in the heart of the believer.

According to the words of Christ, all you need to acquire salvation is to confess and acknowledge God and his Son as saviour...Not dress up nice and put on a show on Sunday mornings...

Agreed. But, if you are a christian, wouldn't you want to look your best to show your love for Christ? It is my belief that Christ teaches us to sort of "clean up our act".

As far as confessing our sins and acknowledging Christ as our salvation, you are again correct. And, might I add, that Christ also said That where at least 2 or 3 were gathered in His Name, there he would be also. To me, that is the earliest and most simple definitions of a church. After all, aren't we going to church to worship Him?

What does dressing up have to do with anything? I dare say that Christ Himself would have to wear a tie to get into most American churches today. And ol' Peter trying to get in, smelling like a big fish...nah, can't see it happening.

Sadly your right, but luckily not all churches are like that. I could care less about ones appearance. Its more important that they are there to hear about Christ and worship Christ than how they are dressed, or look, or whatever.

My pastors son is pastors a church in the Chattanooga area and he was telling us a story when he was up for Christmas.

"A pastor was in his office preparing for a service early one Sunday morning. A couple of the deacons came and informed the pastor he needed to remove someone from the church. The pastor asked why. They said a fella had came in with long hair, piercings, and tattoos, and wasn't dressed to suit. The pastor told them he didn't feel it was right to ask someone to leave because of how they looked, but the deacons said that type was not permitted in this church and if he wanted to keep his job the pastor would have to ask them to leave.

Deciding to go speak to the person in the pew that pastor was stunned at what he found. It was his son who he had not seen or spoken to in over a year.

What happened, I do not know. But sadly, too many are looking at the outward appearance and not at the heart, nor do some try to help those seek the Lord. Its a sad state of affairs that the church is in across the world, but there still are some solid churches around if you seek one. No church is perfect because man attends them. I do think worshipping the Lord is integral in reaching Heaven. I also do not believe in the once in grace always in grace doctorin either.

The problem with the state of church in America today is that they are trying to bring the message that if you dont go to church you will go to hell. Ive pretty much heard that message at several churches.


As long as you accept God, acknowledge him as your saviour, live your live for him...then Im sure he doesnt care if you congregate with others on a Sunday morning. Not saying that going to church is a bad thing, but dont act like you're going to heaven just because you go to church. Thats what I dont like about our society.

Burton, you are right on a number of things. Just going to church will not get you into heaven. Going to church will; however, give you a more firm foundation of your belief, if you are in the spirit of the Lord when you go.

Stripes, if you are saved by the grace of God, then why would he take it back? Once truly saved, then you are saved. We still sin and God knows the affairs of your heart. Being saved by the grace of God only takes one time, for that is enough. It is up to us to consider the enormity of his grace and to abide by it. I do not believe that God would take such a great gift away from us once he has given it to us.

I agree with you burton. I think it is good to go to church, but not necessary to attain heaven.

CD, he can take it back at any time if you disobey. Was the devil not an angel of God at one time yet had to be cast out? Everyone sins that is true, but without repenting and continually repeating said sins, you can backslide lose your salvation IMO. If you are saved, and then become a devil worshipper 10 years later, do you still believe that person will reach heaven if they do not repent of their sins?

Good point stripes, but what I was trying to say is that my belief is that once you are truly saved, you would continually try to shed your old ways. Let's face it, many people claimed to be saved and you hear of nothing else from them. You make an excellent point, but I don't believe you can "lose" your salvation and you believe you can. I look at it this way, once you have been truly washed in the blood of the lamb, nothing at all can wash that off because it is everlasting. People can and do backslide all the time. I don't think that you lose your salvation, though. The Lord does say he chastizes his children for doing wrong and not doing His will. Remember the parable of the prodigal son? He was always his father's son, no matter what. Just like christians are all God's children The holy father never forget we are His children.

Oh, BTW, if one is truly saved, they would never become a devil worshipper.

I was putting that out there as an extreme, but your beliefs are more from the Calvinist perspective, and mine are more Arminian I guess. I feel like you can lose your salvation. The Jews did in a way if you think about it. They lost their way of attaining it at least and that provided Gentiles with the ability.

A lot of the Apostle Paul's teachings are where Calvinist and Arminians differ in this believe. Corinthians offers many texts about this, but I do like this one from Romans 11 21-24:

21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

"I feel like you can lose your salvation."

Stripes, what would it take for your daughter to cease being your daughter? Nothing can ever change that fact! God is the Father of man generally speaking, and once you are saved He becomes your literal Father. He can no more deny you than you can deny your daughter...because of His promise:
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one."
John 10:27-30 (KJV)

Now, if you've been saved, who can take that away from you? No one, not even yourself!
I don't buy into the person who has been "saved" then goes back into a life of sin - they were never saved to begin with. A person who has met Jesus face to face through the Holy Spirit becomes a different person, because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Sure, they can and will sin, but its totally a different affair than returning to a life of sin.
The best example of the backsliding Christian is found in Luke 15. Notice the father's reaction to the return of the prodigal son.

A friend once told me "I'd rather believe the way I do (that one can lose their salvation) and be wrong than to believe the way you do (eternal salvation)and be wrong."
My response to him was "If I believed that I could lose my salvation, then I'd thumb my nose up at every church I passed. Who wants to serve a God who is just waiting for you to mess up?!?!?"
Trust me, I am His, He is mine. I can never change that equation.

" For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry. "

See, I feel as though when they say dead, it implies cut off, because why would it say alive again? You are still alive if that is not the case.

I have a family member that was saved. He was a preacher that was given that gift by God and done a great job for many numbers of years. I believe he would tell you right now that he is not going to heaven. He feels as though he failed God because of things that happened in his household a number of years ago, and quit preaching, quit reading, and quit going to church.

I believe you can change the equation because you have your own freewill. Adam and Eve had the freewill to disobey God and listen to Satan. God is the father to everyone, saved or unsaved. We as individuals have the freewill to turn our backs on God, just as any child can turn their backs on their parents and leave them.

God isn't waiting for us to mess. He knows we will mess up, where flesh. Its what we do after we mess up that makes the difference.

When King David sinned against God, he HAD to repent of his sins. God had sent a prophet to King David to tell him a story about a man who had turned away from God. King David was that man and he knew that he had walked away from God because of the worldly sins he was committing. Why if King David had already accepted God once, why did he even repent again. If once in grace always in grace is true, then why did David even repent?
I believe, if King David ignored the warning from the prophet and just sent him on his way then King David would have died lost. Solomon was another man who walked away from Christ at one time.
Then there were 12 disciples that walked with Jesus. When Jesus accended to heaven he prayed to the Father saying I have kept all those you gave me, save one, who fell into perdition. Which was Judas.

Proverbs 14:14 Talks about backsliding
"The backslider in heart shall be filled with his own ways: and a good man shall be satisfied from himself."

One can fall from Grace, that is what Satan is trying to get even the very elect to do through trials we face everyday.

Ah, but you no longer have freewill if you have surrendered your life to Christ. He now owns you, and justifiably so. That's why Paul taught so much about "denying self", and reminding us of our human weakness: [For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.] Romans 7:14-21 (KJV) Paul's words should be proof enough that no matter how good a Christian you become, sin is still going to be ever present. How much sin does it take for a Christian to lose their salvation?



Have you ever seen anything deader than a backsliding Christian? They're miserable and don't know why. They find themselves wallowing with the pigs. They have "lost" their way, but the fact remains they are still Christians. When they realize and acknowledge their folly, as this young man did, then reconciliation has already begun. A backsliding Christian is also "dead" as far as Kingdom work goes, and can only be useful when they are "alive".


I've known quite a few folks who believed you could lose your salvation, only to suddenly have a light come on and see this deep truth. Some of them preachers, others preachers' kids who had grown up on that doctrine. I believed that myself when I was first saved, but many years of study and devotion led me to believe that Salvation is Eternal. If I believed that I could lose my salvation, then I don't think I could ever set foot in a church again. What would be the point?

The bottom line is, He owns me, therefore I serve.

"No man is able to pluck them out of my hand."

King David and Solomon were both pre-Christ, so they technically could not be called "Christians". Jesus forever changed the relationship between God and man. The people of Old Testament times didn't have the Holy Spirit inside of them to guide them. While they needed a priest as intercessor with God, we need no one. Jesus restored us so that we can talk to God just as Adam and Eve did before their fall, because He walks with us daily as the Holy Spirit.

We just have two different interpretations. Unfortunately to many, they feel as though they have been saved, and because of that they do not have to set foot in church again or accept his teachings, and commandments.

I respect you a ton, and you know that, but this is an area where I guess we will always differ.

"Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils".

Agreed. Many of my friends hold the same belief as you. That doesn't diminish my love or respect for them. That is why we are instructed to "work out our salvation" in Philipians. That is, to stand on what we believe, knowing that God stands with us.
I hope we don't always differ on this, as I think a Christian misses the full joy of Salvation by thinking it is something that can be lost. Just my opinion. [img]/LDPforum/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif[/img]

I hope we don't either, but alas I feel like the same as you just the other way around. [img]/LDPforum/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img]

Hey, we agree on the main thing and that is salvation comes through the Lord, Jesus Christ.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ut1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Agreed. Many of my friends hold the same belief as you. That doesn't diminish my love or respect for them. That is why we are instructed to "work out our salvation" in Philipians. That is, to stand on what we believe, knowing that God stands with us.
I hope we don't always differ on this, as I think a Christian misses the full joy of Salvation by thinking it is something that can be lost. Just my opinion. [img]/LDPforum/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif[/img] </div></div>

I understand what you're saying concerning the joy of salvation. However, I am concerned that, via your opinion, an individual can think he is saved once and for all, and can continue to live a life that is unscriptural - Bonhoeffer called this cheap grace. So, a question: If once saved/always saved, what limits the individual from continuing in his transgressions? Not to be argumentative, but I would genuinely like to know. Thanks.

Going to church is not what provides your salvation, but is an integral part of the life of a born again Christian. The church is supposed to be a pillar of support for you and help develop you as a Christian. That doesn't mean that you rely on the church for everything, you must grow and develop on your own as well with daily prayer and bible studying.

I believe that "churchianity" has replaced Christianity throughout the U.S and in the minds of most believers. Go to "church", particapte in their activities, contribute to their causes, etc. Church isn't a building...it's an organic, dynamic concept that requires no building, no paid clergy, etc. It isn't a spectator sport, as most in America believe. Anyway...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boney</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ut1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Agreed. Many of my friends hold the same belief as you. That doesn't diminish my love or respect for them. That is why we are instructed to "work out our salvation" in Philipians. That is, to stand on what we believe, knowing that God stands with us.
I hope we don't always differ on this, as I think a Christian misses the full joy of Salvation by thinking it is something that can be lost. Just my opinion. [img]/LDPforum/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif[/img] </div></div>

I understand what you're saying concerning the joy of salvation. However, I am concerned that, via your opinion, an individual can think he is saved once and for all, and can continue to live a life that is unscriptural - Bonhoeffer called this cheap grace. So, a question: If once saved/always saved, what limits the individual from continuing in his transgressions? Not to be argumentative, but I would genuinely like to know. Thanks. </div></div>
I don't see how anyone can think that he/she can continue in sin after they've been saved.
Here is the Apostle Paul's answer to your question:
Romans 6:11-18
11 Even so reckon ye also yourselves to be dead unto sin, but alive unto God in Christ Jesus. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey the lusts thereof: 13 neither present your members unto sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves unto God, as alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye present yourselves as servants unto obedience, his servants ye are whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that, whereas ye were servants of sin, ye became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching whereunto ye were delivered; 18 and being made free from sin, ye became servants of righteousness.

A truly saved person will turn to the Bible, not away from it, when they are first converted. It is of the utmost importance that a new convert be instructed in the Word, specifically in the area we are talking about. If they go right back to living the same old sinful lifestyle, they were never saved to start with, and "his servants ye are whom ye obey".
Other scripture regarding the saved Christian that makes poor decisions after conversion:

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Would love to have you guys in my Sunday School class!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: luvhoops</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Going to church is not what provides your salvation, but is an integral part of the life of a born again Christian. The church is supposed to be a pillar of support for you and help develop you as a Christian. That doesn't mean that you rely on the church for everything, you must grow and develop on your own as well with daily prayer and bible studying. </div></div>
Agreed.
Additionally, going to church (not a building, but an assembly of believers)helps to mature the Christian in knowing the goal of the church - growth, not just numerically, but also spiritually. It also means being involved in God's work through the church in the areas of evangelism, discipleship, fellowship, ministry, and worship. Fellowship will be a natural biproduct of the other four areas. That's why God commanded us to assemble - it's not an option.

Are you So. Bap.?

I attend a Southern Baptist church, but my background includes Primitive Baptist, Methodist, Freewill Baptist, and Independent Baptist. Some of my most formative years were spent in a non-denominational community church. "The Baptist Faith and Message", which was adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention in 2000, pretty much sums up what I believe doctrinally. I am as disgusted as a lot of other folks with "church" when man lets man dictate doctrine. I would not attend a church that didn't prove by their actions that Jesus Christ was their head, heart, mind, body and soul.

What is grace in your opinion?

Grace is God's free gift of salvation to man, freely giving something we don't deserve. The difference between grace and mercy being that we receive mercy in place of what we do deserve - punishment. Grace, on the other hand, is something we don't deserve and really have no right to. Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection makes that Grace possible. Paul covers that subject pretty well. Some would think that he and James butted heads on the subject, and that James held to the performance of works for salvation, but that is not the case at all. Their teachings compliment each other, helping all Christians realize that a natural biproduct of their grace (through faith) is works.

Thanks for responding.

Jesus only died once on the cross. Not each time I sin.

Not to mix semantics or etymology, but I could arguably disagree with your statement.

Are you saying that Jesus died more than once, or that He didn't die at all?