[ame="http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3510042"]Braves deal Teixeira to Angels for Kotchman, minor leaguer - MLB - ESPN[/ame]
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[ame="http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3510042"]Braves deal Teixeira to Angels for Kotchman, minor leaguer - MLB - ESPN[/ame]
dumb move imo
It's a good move....Jones on the DL...Atlanta not going to get close to the wild card..and they get a pretty good 1st baseman and a pitching prospect...not bad.
They needed to get something back for him, because they probably won't be able to resign him. Injuries have just decimated the Braves this year.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: raider13</div><div class="ubbcode-body">dumb move imo</div></div>
Dumb post, IMO.
Casey Kotchman isn't exactly peanuts. Guy's a good ballplayer and only has 4 years of MLB time under his belt, most of that as a reserve, and he was one of the best prospects in the Angels' system before this season, when he's finally gotten consistent PT.
So, your dumb move got the Braves:
1) younger at a key corner IF position,
2) better defensively than Teixeira,
3) got the above two w/o losing much offensive pop at all,
4) a better chance to sign a young 1B for the long-term than they would have had they kept Teixeira.
Also, Steven Marek, the Minor League pitcher Atlanta got from Anaheim is highly regarded as one of their top low-minor pitching prospects they had in their system. So he wasn't any slouch.
So yeah...dumb move...where's that "roll eyes" icon when you need it.
And I don't even like the Braves. [img]/LDPforum/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif[/img]
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoeburnCane</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: raider13</div><div class="ubbcode-body">dumb move imo</div></div>
Dumb post, IMO.
Casey Kotchman isn't exactly peanuts. Guy's a good ballplayer and only has 4 years of MLB time under his belt, most of that as a reserve, and he was one of the best prospects in the Angels' system before this season, when he's finally gotten consistent PT.
So, your dumb move got the Braves:
1) younger at a key corner IF position,
2) better defensively than Teixeira,
3) got the above two w/o losing much offensive pop at all,
4) a better chance to sign a young 1B for the long-term than they would have had they kept Teixeira.
Also, Steven Marek, the Minor League pitcher Atlanta got from Anaheim is highly regarded as one of their top low-minor pitching prospects they had in their system. So he wasn't any slouch.
So yeah...dumb move...where's that "roll eyes" icon when you need it.
And I don't even like the Braves. [img]/LDPforum/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif[/img]</div></div>
Check and mate. [img]/LDPforum/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img]
Although I do see some of the logic in the Braves trade, lets use some common sense here and not talk down Big Tex, for example, "Braves didn't loose much pop in the trade"...Seriously???Tex has 20 Hrs already this year, Kotchman has 12, that puts Tex on target for his normal high 30-low 40 in Hr's, and Kotchman on target fot a low 20 season....Thats a lot of Pop...Kotchan didn't miss any more normal playing time last year than any other player, and he could only muster 11 hr's, Tex was up in the 30's as ussual....Tex is also only 2 1/2 years older than Kotchman, so there is no huge age difference or anything...The trade tells me the Braves don't plan to be a contender for the next few years...Nothing wrong with that, thats just what kind of trade it was....But the braves did loose alot of pop, and the biggest feared power hitter in their lineup...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: neutral88</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Although I do see some of the logic in the Braves trade, lets use some common sense here and not talk down Big Tex, for example, "Braves didn't loose much pop in the trade"...Seriously???Tex has 20 Hrs already this year, Kotchman has 12, that puts Tex on target for his normal high 30-low 40 in Hr's, and Kotchman on target fot a low 20 season....Thats a lot of Pop...Kotchan didn't miss any more normal playing time last year than any other player, and he could only muster 11 hr's, Tex was up in the 30's as ussual....Tex is also only 2 1/2 years older than Kotchman, so there is no huge age difference or anything...The trade tells me the Braves don't plan to be a contender for the next few years...Nothing wrong with that, thats just what kind of trade it was....But the braves did loose alot of pop, and the biggest feared power hitter in their lineup...</div></div>
So, you want Tex's 30-40 HR's this year when the Braves are likely out of contention, as opposed to the 25-30 that Kotchman can give them for 5-6 years from here on out if/when they sign him long term (which was almost certain they couldn't do with Tex). Trade 40 HR's to a contender in return for more youth, just as good or better defense, and the possibility of getting 125-180 HR's over the span of 5-6 years in return? Plus a pitcher? That's a great deal if you're the Braves and you knew for an almost certainty you wouldn't be able to sign Tex long term in his walk season.
And for the record:
Tex's #'s this season:
BA - .283
HR - 20
RBI - 78
OBP - .390
SLG - .512
SB - 0
Kotchman's #'s:
BA - .287
HR - 12
RBI - 54
OBP - .327
SLG - .448
SB - 2
Kotchman's #'s don't pale in comparison by no means--both guys have solid #'s. A little less power, but the guy has potential to have just as much power as Tex. And this season--both Tex & Kotchman have .998 fielding percentages--so you don't lose anything on that end, and Kotchman has more time in his career to just get better.
The Braves are entering rebuilding mode. They don't need a bunch of stars like Tex, they need solid centerpieces like Kotchman/Marek.
alot of time??? Tex is 2 years older???
Like I said, i see the point in the trade, i said that above as well but evidently it was overlooked...
but as you numbers show, the Braves lost alot of pop...And gained nothing in return...So my statement stands on your stats...the braves lost alot of pop....I never said they were gonna be able to keep Tex...But to say they didn't loose much pop is crazy, they lost the most feared hitter in their lineup, for what now will probably be the 4th most feared, if even that high...
Like I said above, i see the point in the trade, but lets not act the Braves didn't loose anything...If the pitcher doesn't make it to the big stage, they basically got jack, cause Kotchman played all of last year and hit 11 hr, no sign this year isn't just some kind of fluke.....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">cause Kotchman played all of last year and hit 11 hr, no sign this year isn't just some kind of fluke..... </div></div>
Kotchman didn't "play" all of last year, he platooned. He played in 137 games, had 443 AB's, which is only about 70 more AB's than he has so far this season, and we're just past midway. He just this season became the Angels' starting 1B full-time.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the Braves lost some pop the 2nd half of this season...And gained alot of future potential in return...</div></div>
Fixed...though I didn't fix that, John Schuerholz came in my office and typed that for me.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">alot of time??? Tex is 2 years older???</div></div>
In baseball time, that's a lot of time. Fall Leagues, offseason training w/your coaching staff, etc...that's a lot of developmental time that you weren't going to get with Tex because he was walking to greener pastures.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">they lost the most feared hitter in their lineup, for what now will probably be the 4th most feared, if even that high...</div></div>
Granted...Tex/Chipper/McCann/Francoeur is more intimidating to face than Chipper/McCann/Francoeur/Kotchman, but for the long run (and that's what matters here, not now) the latter foursome isn't a bad lineup to have as your top 4 hitters. Kotchman can only get better working with those 3 guys and hitting in that lineup. Also note that in the Braves lineup, you'll likely see Kotchman moving down to about the 5th spot in the lineup, not hitting 2nd like he was with the Angels. More opportunity to hit homers, more opportunity for RBI's. His K's may go up as a side effect, but then again--Tex has 70 K's so far this season, Kotchman only 23.
So even if they lost "pop", they got more consistent with the pretty good possibility of getting that "pop" back over the course of the next 5 years or so. That's a good solid trade. You're freaking out over them losing "pop" in the 2nd half of a season where they've fallen out of contention for the playoffs, when you should be looking towards what they did to build for the future to get back into contention.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoeburnCane</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> That's a good solid trade. You're freaking out over them losing "pop" in the 2nd half of a season where they've fallen out of contention for the playoffs, when you should be looking towards what they did to build for the future to get back into contention. </div></div>
Man, are you unaware that this whole conversation has been because,you are the one who originally said the braves didn't loose alot of pop, when in fact they did loose garaunteed pop, if they could afford it, for several years, there as absolutely no gaurantee to Kotchmans power, which so far, he has had none of...
How did they gain consistancy??? I can't wait to hear this explination....
I will repeat this for the third time, I undersstand the logic to the trade, but lets not act like it is a great deal in the bag...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: neutral88</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Man, are you unaware that this whole conversation has been because,you are the one who originally said the braves didn't loose alot of pop, when in fact they did loose garaunteed pop, if they could afford it, for several years, there as absolutely no gaurantee to Kotchmans power, which so far, he has had none of...</div></div>
Are you unaware of the fact that the Braves are OUT OF CONTENTION THIS SEASON??? It doesn't matter what kind of pop they got or lost, guaranteed or not, because they're out of the race for all intents & purposes. Also--them trading Teixeira is a sign that they KNEW that they couldn't resign him, so unloading him while there was still a market for him (instead of two late-round compensatory picks in the draft), was the best option for them. You're acting like they could have afforded Teixeira, when reality says they couldn't.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How did they gain consistancy??? I can't wait to hear this explination....</div></div>
Less K's, not too awful much less power, comparable fielding--and all for an extended period of time if/when they sign Kotchman long-term. That's more consistent than if they had kept Teixeira and he had hit 50 HR's in the 2nd half and hit .450...because it wouldn't have mattered because they're not going to the playoffs anyways--too many key guys injured, too far out of the race at this point in the season.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will repeat this for the third time, I undersstand the logic to the trade, but lets not act like it is a great deal in the bag...</div></div>
I hear you on understanding the trade. We can definitely agree to disagree that this is a good or a bad trade. I just think all real-world signs point to this being a positive for the Braves and their future, more than it would have been had they attempted to keep Teixeira and missed on him. Given those circumstances, I think it was a great deal by Schuerholz--you can think it was a lateral move or just a good move if you wish, but no way that the Braves actually "lost" on this one given all the circumstances.
The Braves lost a lot of pop for 2 months. Really thats all. There was a 95% chance the Braves wouldn't get Tex to resign because they couldn't afford him in the offseason. They gave up 4 players for him and relief pitcher last year. They needed to get something back for him this season since they will not be making the playoffs. Is Kotchman as good as Tex? No. Is it better to get him for Tex than to get nothing for Tex? Yes.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1inStripes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is it better to get him for Tex than to get nothing for Tex? Yes. </div></div>
That is exactly what I've been trying to say Stripes....This was not a gain, heck no where near a lateral...It was not a good trade, simply the best they could do with the situation...
The actuall truth is, they have lost their A$$es on the whole deal, but it was the best they could do givin their circumstances...
Compairing Tex to Kotchman and trying to make it look likt Kotch isn't much different is a different story all together...
I won't say they have lost their asses. If Saltalamacchia was playing better for Texas then I would agree. The way I look at it, is what they gave up for Tex versus what they got for him. Right now, as a whole as a Braves fan we can call it a win. You would like to get more for Tex than you did, but the market isn't there this year. They wanted Connor Jackson from the Dbacks for Tex who is a solid young player. Kotchmann isn't terrible. Not as much power, but a decent average who now lets them forget about 1b to go get a quality starting pitcher next year and a corner outfield. Possibly trade Franceour if he doesn't show improvement before the end of the year as well.
As much as I would hate to lost Ohman, he will be traded by tomorrow and will probably draw a better player/players than Tex did to be honest.
I won't call the Tex deal a loss though because what we sent Texas for Tex hasn't panned out.
One intersting stat when comparing Kotchman to Tex is that even though they have similar AB's for the season, Tex has hit with 126 extra men on base on the season. You put Kotchman in there in Tex's spot with his opportunities and I don't think the stats would vary too much. Keep in mind Chipper was hitting over .400 for most of the year and that has elevated Tex's numbers all season long.
a man can mix the numbers around anyway he wished...
Kotch has no where near the power, and nowhere near the OBP...
As far as man for man Kotch vs Tex, there is really no comparison, or no extra shelf life on Kotch, if anything, he is scarier because of his history if illness and injury, which is one of the worst in the last 3 years of the MLB....The numbers are gauranteed from Tex, who knows about Kotch, Not saying it won't happen, but Kotch could very easily, and very likely hit less than 20 homers next year...Tex will hit over 30, and the year after that, and the year after that....
I fully understand that this is what the Bravos had to do, and all in all Kotch is probably a better player than what they lost for Tex...But he's not a Tex, in no way shape form or fashion, and that's all I've been trying to say all day, the player vs player coulda shoulda woulda comparisons are crazy... At this point, or in three years for that matter (Tex is young too), Tex is the gauranteed producer...You could very very easily never hear the name Kotch again after next year...
I never said the Braves haven't done the right thing, all I've said is the player production comparisons are not needed, there is no comparison...
IMO, Texiera isn't a great player...he's good but nothing to lose sleep over trading.
I don't care what you say. You give player A more AB's with runners on base vs player B and player A will drive in more runs than player B 99% of the time especially when player A & B have the almost identical averages. That is just the way it is.
As far as the trade, I think it is a good move. You are getting a chance at a good corner infielder that could be a cornerstone player and a possible relief prospect vs. keeping Tex and then letting him go scott free at the end of the year and not getting anything in return. That is a no brainer IMO. The season is already lost so great move.
Nobody still understands what I'm saying...
I KNOW THE BRAVES HAD TO DO THIS....IT WAS AS GOOD OF A MOVE AS THEY COULD MAKE AT THE TIME....
Twist the numbers anyway you like, Tex has a magnitude more power, is feared more, and has a huge OB% advantage over this guy... Kotch is only 2 years younger than Tex and has never hit more than 12 hrs in his life...Tex has never hit less than that before the all-star break..Period....
I just don't understand the "Ah we didn't loose much" mentality...Or the "Ah Kotch is just as good, and could be better"
Again I undertand Tex was gonna have to leave after this year anyway, I just don't understand the "Oh Kotch is just as good" attitude...
No, he's not, he's not even close....
Will he ever be, maybe
Is he way behind where Tex was at his age??? I think Tex hit 43 homers at 1 year younger than Kotch...
Who exactly fears Texiera? I can name a ton of hitters in the majors I'd rather not pitch to than him....he's good..but that's it.
A ton in the National League???
Only 17 or 18 guys in the NL have more homers than him...
You can fear whoever you want, but the numbers say you better fear him, thats not an opinion, thats the numbers on it...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: neutral88</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A ton in the National League???
Only 17 or 18 guys in the NL have more homers than him...
You can fear whoever you want, but the numbers say you better fear him, thats not an opinion, thats the numbers on it...
</div></div>
That's two full lineups' worth of guys in one league.
Can I get a judges ruling?
They're nodding, they're nodding....yes, we'll accept that. That's a ton.
I don't know if Tex is one of those feared guys but he's also still in his prime, he's a gold glover, and he's gonna break the bank. I don't care who has more homers than him or not, he's a dynamite player, and I think the Braves gave him up for too little (even though I know they weren't going to approach getting back what they gave up for him).
He'll probably go sign with the Yankees in the offseason for 60 zillion dollars.
ok so there are 17 players more feared than him in the NL, and approx. 250-300 who aren't????
wow, he is scraping the bottom of the barrel ain't he???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: neutral88</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ok so there are 17 players more feared than him in the NL, and approx. 250-300 who aren't????
wow, he is scraping the bottom of the barrel ain't he???</div></div>
No one's saying Tex is overrated or garbage, we're just saying he's not in nearly as high of an esteem as you obviously hold him. Chill out.
I'm chilled, and personally I don't even like the braves...
I just called some hands on you all saying..."they braves didn't loose much pop", and "Kotch could be just as good in time"...I show you all that when Tex was 1 year younger than Kotch he hit 43 homers, so when is Kotch gonna get so strong, what kinda time would that take???
I don't even hold Tex that high, but if you all keep trying to convince me he is anywhere near the level of Kotchman, or what Kotchman could be, I have to continually ask on what grounds????
I don't like the Braves either.
As for Tex vs. Kotch...yes, right now, Kotchman is not an offensive powerhouse like Tex. Is he garbage? No.
Kotchman was one of the jewels of the Angels minor league system on his way up 3 years ago. I first read his name in an article on fantasy keeper leagues back in 2005. The guy projects to be a solid defensive 1B, with potential for .320/30 HR/110 RBI when he gets full seasons and good experience under his belt. Not bad for a position in the lineup where you need production on offense. It's not superstar #'s really, but if he can do that for 10 years in his career, he's made someone a pretty good consistent offensive force. He was the #13 overall choice by the Angels in the 2001 draft, straight out of HS. He's not terrible, he just has less experience and seasoning than Teixeira.
This year's the first season he's had a chance to start full-time at 1B (see where I said he played in 137 games last year but platooned/pinch hit a lot of those games). In Tex's situation coming up thru the ranks--in 2001, he was drafted out of Georgia Tech 5th overall by the Rangers (after his Jr. year--he was voted Nat'l College Player of the Year). He rocketed thru their system as a power bat, and only spent 1 year in the minors. He was a blue-chipper that played at a position of need for Texas...so they moved him up through the system quicker than what the Angels did Kotchman. The only season that he's had less than 500 AB's in a season was last year when he went from Texas to Atlanta.
By comparison, due to health complications (mononucleosis mainly), Kotchman had 443 AB's in platoon time in 2007, most in his career. He's on pace this year to get approx. 600 AB's. If you look at those extra AB's and the fact that he'll hit lower in the lineup, it's no stretch to say he could make it to 20-25 HR's this season, and only improve upon those power numbers hitting 3rd/4th/5th in that Atlanta lineup when everyone's healthy.
Also note that in 2006, the Angels moved Darin Erstad back to CF from 1B to make room for Kotchman before he got a bad case of mononucleosis and had to step away to get healthy again--only got 29 AB's before getting sick. Darin Erstad's been an all-star--he's not chopped liver. The fact that they moved a guy like Erstad to make room to get Kotchman in the lineup tells you what the Angels thought about him.
Kotchman may not ever hit 43 HR's in a season. But if he hits more than 43 the whole time he's in Atlanta, that's more than what they most certainly would have gotten out of Teixeira this season, since he would have walked out via free agency after this 2nd half anyways...and that makes the trade worthwhile, and a good one, for Atlanta. Both of them are what they are...Kotchman's a consistency guy across the board (when healthy), and Tex is a power guy. Both play solid defense. They're comparable because they play the same position...but they are different.
I've said enough...I've enjoyed the conversation man.
I want to say I never said it was a bad trade...I never even wanted to discuss the trade part, Only that Kotch wasn't on the same level as Tex, as many were pointing to...
I've said enough too, I've enjoyed it as well...
I don't think anybody can say he's on the level as Tex, but Tex is doing to be a free agent, while Kotchman is cheaper and not going to be. Since Ted doesn't own the Braves, their payroll is limited, they have to take chances, and sometimes they work, sometimes they don't.