How can a Christian

How can a Christian profess to be a Christian, yet vote for candidates who are openly for abortion and gay rights? Are we not to be circumspect in choosing our leaders? And when should our wallet take precedence over our morals? Never! As I've stated on here before, God will not allow this country to continue in it's moral decadence. If He does, Sodom and Gomorrah will cry against us for the same judgment that was poured out on them.

Jeremiah 18 gives us a good idea of what God desires of His people.

Exactly why I can never vote for a democrat. I just can't get past the moral issues. Especially with Obama who thinks its ok to abort a child at 9 months.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Exactly why I can never vote for a democrat. I just can't get past the moral issues. Especially with Obama who thinks its ok to abort a child at 9 months. </div></div>

But you can vote for a Republican who votes to fund Planned Parenthood which does nothing more than promote abortion in America, but also sends millions in US taxpayer money overseas to murder babies in foreign countries as well? John McCain and the Republican party is no moral superior to the Democrats. But as long as short sighted christians believe it they will continue to glady have their support.

It's funny how Democrats are routinely credited for homoseaxual sympathy yet a blind eye is turned to the Log Cabin Rebublicans who are wholeheartily supporting McCain!

It's also funny how christians are always lamenting the fact that there are no dedicated christians running for office (and don't try the "Bush is a christian" line) when God has had a strong christian running for the Presidency in the last 5-6 elections in the US Taxpayer/Constitution Party yet they are ignored.

Notice I didn't attach a political party to the original post, but listed candidates who openly support abortion and gay rights.

Stuff like this pisses me off to no end, you question my morals when your party has killed over 4,000 Americans for nothing? Look in the mirror before you question others moral values. One of the few things on here that will still set me off is this.

I empathise that 4000 soldiers have lost their lives in Irag, which is a war supported by both sides. But it's incomprehensible to compare that to 40,000,000 helpless babies who have lost their lives to some abortionist. Abortion is an atrocious, barbaric act.

Really, get serious if it wasn't legal women would just turn up turpentine and do the same thing. Sorry to be so graphic but everybody knows it's the truth.

Sounds a bit hypocritical to me.

Brother, you marry and father a child then your view will change. No doubt women will always find a way to abort, but for the government to stamp it with their approval is another. Out of 40 million aborted kids, how many MLKs, Einsteins, Mozarts, athletes, scientists, etc. have we lost? Consequently, have we possibly lost the cure for cancer, an individual who could develop new energy technology, etc? Peeps can't play God.

I hate to enter into this thread for the simple reason that PVFAN brought up 4,000 soldiers' lives and boney brought up 40,000,000 helpless babies, but I feel it lies upon our shoulders to right the wrongs of this country. Are there any other countries who have laws against abortion? What about the atrocities that Hussein himself did against his own countrymen? I'm not talking about the WMD, everyone knows that was a bust, but I am talking about the "gassing" of kurdish shepards and anyone who even had a thought of going against Hussein. Yes, abortion is wrong morally, but right now, it is legal in our country.

There is no way I would want a woman I was with to abort a child but you can't keep people from doing it. To me, it's much safer for a woman to get proper medical care than do it in some back alley.

Which is exactly what happened before abortion was made illegal. The abortion rate was probably just as high then as it is now. The only difference is that it is legal.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PVFAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is no way I would want a woman I was with to abort a child but you can't keep people from doing it. TO me, it's much safer for a woman to get proper medical care than do it in some back alley. </div></div>

Maybe, however, we can prevent the government from approving it. And the issue isn't about safety, it's about moral responsibility, right and wrong, give and take, good and evil.

Which is an individual thing. Whats moral for me isn't moral for you and vice versa. Government shouldn't decide morality issues imo.

IMO we should have never been in Iraq to begin with. Al Quaida sp attacked us and we should take the war to them. Their leaders were in Afghanistan and that is where the front should have been. And any nation that had their members should have been put on alert that there was a military strike coming if they continued to allow them to remain in their country. And yes, Saddam was a wicked man, but worse was/is happening in the Sudan as we speak as christians are being murdered, raped, and sold to Muslim slave traders while their pleas for US help falls on deaf ears. Where are we in other countries where dictators are ruling and murdering their people?

And abortion is murder, plain and simple, and to be legalized AND funded by the government is unbelievable. And God states that the shedding of innocent blood is an abomination and will not go unpunished. Hence IMO one reason this nation is in the state it is.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PVFAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Which is an individual thing. Whats moral for me isn't moral for you and vice versa. Government shouldn't decide morality issues imo. </div></div>

So government shoudn't have laws? Because almost every issue is a morality issue at it's base. Murder, robbery, embezzlement, prostitution. When laws are passed it is the imposing of what someone thinks is right upon everyone else.

Personally, I think prostitution should be legal. Only purpose for government imo is to protect the people. Murder, robbery, and other things you mentioned can hurt me. What some woman does with her child is none of my business. Same can be said about prostitution and most drugs. If your an adult I think the government should leave you alone when it comes to your personal life as long as your not bothering other people with it.

See I am in line with GC1 in that abortion is murder. Its not a moral thing, its a murder thing. We just found out that my wife is pregnant again. She is six weeks along and the heartbeat was 114 bpm Friday. Heartrate = life IMO.

When you talk about the government having to do something "moral", it's too easy to cross that line into religion. Some people would love a religion to be stamped as the official US Government religion. There's a little thing called separation of church & state that keeps that from happening, thank God.

Only through blind faith can corruption manifest itself, because then, the wool is easier to pull down over all eyes so deceit can take root.

I've said this on here before, and I'll say it again--look through all of the great nations and countries in our world's history--the great downfalls of a lot of these societies came via either religious government or a religious figurehead having control over the ruling body of that government. Rasputin & Richelieu come to mind first & foremost--the used the guise of religion to control the government and shape it so they could corrupt it to their favor.

That's my biggest fear with leaving moral issues up to the government, and also for religious bodies lobbying to do certain things in our government. Moral choices, much like conviction of the heart/spirit, should be personal decisions. You should seek God and decide for yourself. If you feel you've chosen against God's will, seek forgiveness. This should NOT be a political question at all. Those who use religion in their politics to get elected and then effect no change in those issues are the ones that should sicken you, not those who take a stance to the contrary.

Religion causes as many problems if not more than it helps. To me, this thread is a fine example of that. I thank God that my religious beliefs aren't forced on everyone else through the United States Government, it's a shame others try to get their views forced upon me. Really, this thread just burns me. I think some people are to blinded by their own religion to realize some of the harm it has done. You can make a very valid and serious point that Christianity held back women in this country forever seemingly. A country that is Christian also enslaved people for a good time as well. As I said earlier before you go questioning others and the morals they have maybe some on here need to examine their own religion. Comments like the one that started this thread are why I have a difficult time going to church. I pretty much felt like if you didn't vote republican you were going to Hell at my last church so I left. I personally now just pray to God and try to seek guidance on my own.

Faith & ideas stemming from that faith as to how to live your life according to faith in a higher power are great things. Religion is too easily corruptible to be effective in helping the world to change.

This isn't a referendum on smaller churches (though there's corruption and power-playing at that level too), it's moreso my reaction to how the big religious establishments have sought to control things, to censor things they don't understand (nor have they tried to understand it), and to seek their own personal gain "for the glory of God". Call me weird--but that's just wrong on any level of organized religion, and it's not what I think God would want.

Faith, beliefs, and ideas of how to live a good life on this earth and to get to a good place in the hereafter is all great. Seek guidance from God and live your life accordingly. But to quote a friend of mine from a different message board: Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers.

Before you get offended, think about what that means.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ut1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How can a Christian profess to be a Christian, yet vote for candidates who are openly for abortion and gay rights? Are we not to be circumspect in choosing our leaders? And when should our wallet take precedence over our morals? Never! As I've stated on here before, God will not allow this country to continue in it's moral decadence. If He does, Sodom and Gomorrah will cry against us for the same judgment that was poured out on them.

Jeremiah 18 gives us a good idea of what God desires of His people. </div></div>
Nowhere in the Bible does it make the breaking of one commandment and greater than the breaking of another. Thall shalt not kill may apply to abortion...but Thall shalt not steal, Thall shalt not bear false witness, and Thall shalt not covet are commandments as well...all broken by your morally upstanding GOP...heck, even some GOP members of congress are trying to get laid in the men's room and chasing pages of the same sex....so how really do you justify that? Religion has no place in politics.

Let me ask everyone here a hypothetical question. Let's say one of your wife/girlfriend was raped and was to become pregnant. Would you then be up for an abortion, or would you raise that child as your own?

I'm all for abortion rights..not as a "regular" means of birth control tho.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PVFAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Which is an individual thing. Whats moral for me isn't moral for you and vice versa. Government shouldn't decide morality issues imo. </div></div>

Murder is not an "indiviadual thing". Abortion is murder, case closed. If you dont want a baby, dont be sleeping around or have it adopted. There are plenty of people out there that would take a child.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sup-rbeast</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Nowhere in the Bible does it make the breaking of one commandment and greater than the breaking of another. Thall shalt not kill may apply to abortion...but Thall shalt not steal, Thall shalt not bear false witness, and Thall shalt not covet are commandments as well...all broken by your morally upstanding GOP...heck, even some GOP members of congress are trying to get laid in the men's room and chasing pages of the same sex....so how really do you justify that? Religion has no place in politics. </div></div>

All those thigns are still illegal.

Yep, if I were a woman and I was raped or knew there was something going to be VERY wrong with my child, I'm sure I'd want to have it....

It's illegal to covet? That is the root of all evil, and it's not illegal. Being gay isn't illegal...the only thing I mentioned that is illegal is killing. That's how moral this country is.... stop trying to sugar coat it or insist that morals make a difference..cuz when it come to politics they don't..

Ok let me point it out again...you said "thou shalt not steal" Im pretty sure thats illegal. "Thou shalt not bear flase witness" Im pretty sure perjury is a crime as well.

My point is, even though some may have done it, its still against the law. We dont just say, "ok thats alright"

And as for covet, it would be kind of hard to police a persons feelings

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PVFAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Which is an individual thing. Whats moral for me isn't moral for you and vice versa. Government shouldn't decide morality issues imo. </div></div>

Ok, so I guess those guys on "To Catch a Predator" are ok with you too? I mean they are just going out and preying on 13 year old girls. But if they are both ok with it...fine huh?

You all don't read, period. I'm not a moron, your going to have to come up with something better than that. Actually read what I said before you go and try to make me out to be some pediphile. ADULTS, can you read that? A-D-U-L-T-S! When you start putting religion into politics you have situations like what is going on in Pakistan and other places of the world, do we really want that?

LOL...college kids.

LOL... adults who can't read.

I can read that you think murdering a child is ok with you.

So, you are telling me that someone looking at you and lying is a crime??..that's news to me unless you are under oath. If that's the case everyone is a criminal. Your argument holds no water concerning morality if all sin is the same in the eyes of god...and sin is what you are basing your morals on.

I said perjury is a crime not lying in general.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can read that you think murdering a child is ok with you. </div></div>
That is the most overused and misled argument conservatives can come up with. I don't consider an embryo the size of a bean a "child"...it does conjure up the scene from "Private Parts" where Howard is talking about miscarriage tho...which makes me laugh.

Well when I looked at my daughters on a ultrasound when they were the size of a bean, I sure considered them my child.

So, I take it you interpret the Bible as saying "You shall not commit perjury"??...nope..a sin is a sin...and not all sins are illegal. Therefore, as I said, before, religion has no place in politics. Once you let that happen, then you have the Christian equilavent of Sharia, which would be just as evil.