Evolution of Homosexuality (not sure where to post this)

Gender Bending Oct 23rd 2008
From The Economist print edition
Genes that make some people gay make their brothers and sisters fecund

THE evidence suggests that homosexual behaviour is partly genetic. Studies of identical twins, for example, show that if one of a pair (regardless of sex) is homosexual, the other has a 50% chance of being so, too. That observation, though, raises a worrying evolutionary question: how could a trait so at odds with reproductive success survive the ruthless imperatives of natural selection?

Various answers have been suggested. However, they all boil down to the idea that the relatives of those who are gay gain some advantage that allows genes predisposing people to homosexual behaviour to be passed on collaterally.

One proposal is that the help provided by maiden aunts and bachelor uncles in caring and providing for the children of their brothers and sisters might suffice. That seems unlikely to be the whole story (the amount of help needed to compensate would be huge), though it might be a contributory factor. The other idea, since there is evidence that male homosexuals, at least, are more likely than average to come from large families, is that the genes for gayness bring reproductive advantage to those who have them but are not actually gay themselves. Originally, the thought was that whichever genes make men gay might make women more fecund, and possibly vice versa.

Brendan Zietsch of the Queensland Institute of Medical Research in Brisbane, Australia, and his colleagues have, however, come up with a twist on this idea. In a paper to be published soon in Evolution and Human Behavior, they suggest the advantage accrues not to relatives of the opposite sex, but to those of the same one. They think that genes which cause men to be more feminine in appearance, outlook and behaviour and those that make women more masculine in those attributes, confer reproductive advantages as long as they do not push the individual possessing them all the way to homosexuality.
The straight truth

Other evidence does indeed show that homosexuals tend to be "gender atypical"? in areas beside their choice of sexual partner. Gay men often see themselves as being more feminine than straight men do, and, mutatis mutandis, the same is true for lesbians. To a lesser extent, homosexuals tend to have gender-atypical careers, hobbies and other interests.

Personality tests also show differences, with gay men ranking higher than straight men in standardised tests for agreeableness, expressiveness, conscientiousness, openness to experience and neuroticism. Lesbians tend to be more assertive and less neurotic than straight women.

There are also data which suggest that having a more feminine personality might indeed give a heterosexual male an advantage. Though women prefer traditionally macho men at the time in their menstrual cycles when they are most fertile, at other times they are more attracted to those with feminine traits such as tenderness, considerateness and kindness, as well as those with feminised faces. The explanation usually advanced for this is that macho men will provide the sperm needed to make sexy sons, but the more feminised phenotype makes a better carer and provider"?in other words an ideal husband. And, despite all the adultery and cuckoldry that goes on in the world, it is the husband who fathers most of the children.

As far as masculinised women are concerned, less research has been done on the advantages that their appearance and behaviour might bring. What data there are, however, suggest they tend to have more sexual partners than highly feminised women do. That may, Dr Zietsch speculates, reflect increased competitiveness or a willingness to engage in unrestrained sexual relations (ie, to behave in a male-like way) that other women do not share.

Dr Zietsch and his colleagues tested their idea by doing a twin study of their own. They asked 4,904 individual twins, not all of them identical, to fill out anonymous questionnaires about their sexual orientation, their gender self-identification and the number of opposite-sex partners they had had during the course of their lives. (They used this figure as a proxy for reproductive fitness, since modern birth-control techniques mask actual reproductive fitness.)
The rules of attraction

Their first observation was that the number of sexual partners an individual claimed did correlate with that individual's "gender identity"?. The more feminine a man, the more masculine a woman, the higher the hit rate with the opposite sex"?though women of all gender identities reported fewer partners than men did. (This paradox is normal in such studies. It probably reflects either male boasting or female bashfulness, but though it affects totals it does not seem to affect trends.)

When the relationships between twins were included in the statistical analysis (all genes in common for identical twins; a 50% overlap for the non-identical) the team was able to show that both atypical gender identity and its influence on the number of people of the opposite sex an individual claimed to have seduced were under a significant amount of genetic control. More directly, the study showed that heterosexuals with a homosexual twin tend to have more sexual partners than heterosexuals with a heterosexual twin.

According to the final crunching of the numbers, genes explain 27% of an individual's gender identity and 59% of the variation in the number of sexual partners that people have. The team also measured the genetic component of sexual orientation and came up with a figure of 47%"?more or less the same, therefore, as that from previous studies. The idea that it is having fecund relatives that sustains homosexuality thus looks quite plausible.

Thought this was going to be another R13 joke

I think this is an interesting topic especially if this comes to become as accepted knowledge, some type of genetic problem.

It's a choice you're not born gay. If that's the excuse that gets those people and their parents through the day then they can believe it all they want but I do not and never will

Yeah I don't believe that [censored] either....NO WAY are people born gay. That is strictly their decision and theirs only. I don't claim to be a Christian bc I know I sin and I sin everyday but I was raised in church, had to go 3 times a week until I was about 13yrs old and I know a lil bit about the bible as I was raised from very religous parents. Homosexuality will send you straight to hell and there is no way God is gon make somebody born gay. I myself do not understand homos, for the life of me cannot understand why any guy wouldn't LOVE women. I can understand lesbians alot more bc women are very beautiful and sexy. Well, not all of em. But the womans body is a wonderful thing and I know several girls that find other chicks very attractive or think they are sexy so I can understand 2 women being with eachother as long as its not the butch lesbos.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PVFAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think this is an interesting topic especially if this comes to become as accepted knowledge, some type of genetic problem. </div></div>

If so, do they think this genetic issue can mutate itself during the life of an individual? Considering some people become gay after being straight and vice versa? Maybe it like vision and can be laser corrected then. [img]/LDPforum/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif[/img]

I believe some people do choose homosexuality, while others (perhaps a smaller number) are born that way (like with XXY syndrome, undiagnosed/unnoticed hermaphroditism, or other issues concerning hormone washes in untero).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 722</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PVFAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think this is an interesting topic especially if this comes to become as accepted knowledge, some type of genetic problem. </div></div>

If so, do they think this genetic issue can mutate itself during the life of an individual? Considering some people become gay after being straight and vice versa? Maybe it like vision and can be laser corrected then. [img]/LDPforum/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif[/img] </div></div>
I'm REALLY struggling with the interesting part. [img]/LDPforum/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif[/img]

Same here....I mean how could a guy look at another guy's hairy arse??

No stereotypes there. A very fair, balanced analysis.

I personally think its a choice. I think people get it in their head that they're gay and start believing it so much that the norm becomes a turn-off for them.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MOX</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah I don't believe that [censored] either....NO WAY are people born gay. That is strictly their decision and theirs only. I don't claim to be a Christian bc I know I sin and I sin everyday but I was raised in church, had to go 3 times a week until I was about 13yrs old and I know a lil bit about the bible as I was raised from very religous parents. Homosexuality will send you straight to hell and there is no way God is gon make somebody born gay. I myself do not understand homos, for the life of me cannot understand why any guy wouldn't LOVE women. I can understand lesbians alot more bc women are very beautiful and sexy. Well, not all of em. But the womans body is a wonderful thing and I know several girls that find other chicks very attractive or think they are sexy so I can understand 2 women being with eachother as long as its not the butch lesbos. </div></div>


hahaha oh where to begin with this one...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R13</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I personally think its a choice. I think people get it in their head that they're gay and start believing it so much that the norm becomes a turn-off for them. </div></div>

Is that how it happened for you? [img]/LDPforum/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif[/img] HAHA j/k

This is one of those rare occasions I agree with you r13. Exactly how you said it. Most of the time, its one of those things to get attention.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MOX</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah I don't believe that [censored] either....NO WAY are people born gay. That is strictly their decision and theirs only. I don't claim to be a Christian bc I know I sin and I sin everyday but I was raised in church, had to go 3 times a week until I was about 13yrs old and I know a lil bit about the bible as I was raised from very religous parents. Homosexuality will send you straight to hell and there is no way God is gon make somebody born gay. I myself do not understand homos, for the life of me cannot understand why any guy wouldn't LOVE women. I can understand lesbians alot more bc women are very beautiful and sexy. Well, not all of em. But the womans body is a wonderful thing and I know several girls that find other chicks very attractive or think they are sexy so I can understand 2 women being with eachother as long as its not the butch lesbos.</div></div>

Hahahahahaha. Please tell me you're not serious.

what MOX said might not be politically correct but with a bit more tact in his wording, that is what the bible teaches (for the most part, then he got off on some other stuff)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: starbuck</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what is wrong with what MOX said?</div></div>

Its one of the most idiotic things ever said on here. That's what.

Lol, Sounded like it came from that song... Whats that one called "Body is a Wonderland" or something. A song that explains all lesbian behavior. lol

What the hell is fecund?

man, i think you gotta be born that way.


i see no way a man can make a conscious choice to [censored] other men.

im not religious at all, i mean NOT AT ALL, so that holds no bearings on my views.

its not like i think we should go exterminate all gay people

but i honestly believe, that with all the pressures surronding gays today, i cant make my self think that people choose to take it in the ass

I think elp6n has the right idea some choose it, but most are born that way.

Actually Diets she said a smaller number are born that way, come on now lol. Though I believe it is a choice for the most part, but I do think that what elpn said very well may be true. Or maybe they are all born like that, I dont think anyone knows for sure or anyone is completely right when it comes to this.

Well lots of the ones that I think "choose" that sort of lifestyle are actually bi-sexual. I would think that if your born with the "gayness" that you would only want people of your own sex and not be able to choose both.

But yeah, I read her post wrong. My mistake.

-------> and this <--------- dont go together

Who knows? I dont think any discovery will sway many from the choice position though. Us christians want to think they choose, due to a religious standpoint. But then again if it is accepted by a lot of christians that people can be born with a mental defect that causes them to do some pretty sick things/sins, then why cant they be born with a defect that causes them to be more attracted to their own sex? I do think what I said in my first post could be true, but hell they all could be born with something like that or maybe most. Its hard to make an opinion on something like this when one part of your mind is pulling one way because of a vertain belief and another is pulling you the other way.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Yeah I don't believe that [censored] either....NO WAY are people born gay. That is strictly their decision and theirs only. I don't claim to be a Christian bc I know I sin and I sin everyday but I was raised in church, had to go 3 times a week until I was about 13yrs old and I know a lil bit about the bible as I was raised from very religous parents. Homosexuality will send you straight to hell and there is no way God is gon make somebody born gay. I myself do not understand homos, for the life of me cannot understand why any guy wouldn't LOVE women. I can understand lesbians alot more bc women are very beautiful and sexy. Well, not all of em. But the womans body is a wonderful thing and I know several girls that find other chicks very attractive or think they are sexy so I can understand 2 women being with eachother as long as its not the butch lesbos.</div></div>

Post of the year!

I guess gay dogs are only gay because they want more attention, more kibbles and bits.

Please, you gotta be born that way. Never ever in the history of ever do I think you could psyche yourself up to puff on a peter or go turd tapping and hemmorhoid pushing for attention. It doesn't happen that way.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: duckmeat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess gay dogs are only gay because they want more attention, more kibbles and bits.

Please, you gotta be born that way. Never ever in the history of ever do I think you could psyche yourself up to puff on a peter or go turd tapping and hemmorhoid pushing for attention. It doesn't happen that way. </div></div>

I think it's a product of family breakdown - absence of a dad, an abusive dad, etc. To be born a homosexual, IMO, would reguire a recessive gene to cause it. And since gays don't reproduce, the recessive gene should ultimately be eradicated from the human genome. Bottom line, IMO - homosexuality is a relational problem, as it has become more prevalent with the breakdown of the family unit.

and what would you say to those homosexuals who come from a normal family background whose families actually still support them after they come out?

no study has shown that an absence of a father or any stability problems in the family has been linked to homosexuality

Exactly, havent a lot of studies shown almost the opposite of that theory?

You don't turn gay for attention, you turn emo. It's a lot easier on the throat and bootyhole.

And no legitimate study has refuted it either.

And I would question what you mean by "normal". That can be appearance - just because a woman and man stay married forever doesn't mean that the home life is legit. The operative word I used is relational - proper, wholesome, healthy relationships. As I'm sure you know ANY relationship worth it's salt demands alot of time, selflessness, etc. I've known several homosexuals in my life, and all have sem to have evolved from a strained parental relationship. I don't think we can place too much emphasis on the value of parenting. All of life is relational - good or bad. And in this current day and time, we've placed way too much emphasis on acquiring goods, keeping up with the joneses, etc. Consequently, relationships are sacrificed. Just speaking from my own experiences. MHO.

my resident adviser my freshman year was homosexual...i asked him the same questions..."was it a choice" "how was your home life" "when did you know"...things like that

his response was that he had never been attracted to girls and since he was only surrounded by heterosexuals that he felt he would someday be attracted to women when he grew up...he said his childhood and his family were your normal run-of-the-mill middle class family, no poverty, no divorce, great relationships (he said he talked to his father every day by phone once he was old enough to move out) but that when he was 11 years old he had a friend who was a boy and that he thought was attractive, but couldnt figure out why he thought that, then he kept feeling his entire life that he was only attracted to males so he came out of the closet

and some might say that you can't be born and just know you like males...well, by the same token you don't come out of the womb (as many of you would like to think you do) with a strong attraction to the females either...as a matter of fact most kids, both boys and girls, think other little boys and girls have cooties and stay away from them

and the argument that "no legitimate study has refuted your theory" doesn't make it true...no one has taken the time to refute an 80ft tall abominal snowman but that doesn't mean that exists either

knew a gay guy once. said he knew he was gay when he got happy in his pants when he was in first grade while wrestling with a friend.

also, he always said he would steal his sister's ken barbie dolls.

You made the statement that no study has shown, I made the statement that no study has refuted. I merely refuted that your claim was invliad - neither have scientific proof. I also stated "IMO" - in reference to your example, I respect your assessment of your advisor. However, I still hold to the fact that relationships are critical and absolute. My dad served in WWII, born in 1920, and he told me that during his military days, an encounter with a homosexual was very rare, and he traveled extensively during those days. Maybe because of the closet mentality, maybe becuase families were more tightly knit then. Again, I'm offering opinion. I'm unaware of any critical scientific proof either way. I will say that I'm not biased against gays - I've lost 2 brothers to AIDS due to IV drug use, and the gay community, due to their common plight with fellow AIDS sufferers durin the 90's, were deeply sympathetic and supportive. Many attended their funerals, and stayed in touch with my family til they too passed. I simply can't rationalize how it could be genetic.

i am also of the opinion that relationships and stability in the home are VERY important...i'm just not of the opinion that relationships can do much to change traits that are inherent to one's genes

Agree in part - just disagree as to the genetic component. And I hold that relationships are the ultimate goal and purpose for we humans - in fact, I believe the redemption of relationship is why Christ came and died, that relationship is what God created us for, and that His purpose for the church was to establish and encourage relationship among humans. IMO, relationship is basic and fundamental to all of life. Anyway, thanks for making me think - as unpleasant as it is, I try to always welcome a challenge to my thoughts and opinions. Sometimes I'm in a better frame of mind to receive it than others! lol

haha absolutely, a little debate, as long as it is well-thought out is good for people to see both sides...you can't get to an absolute solution without having first fully viewed every side of the equation

Best of the best right here

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MOX</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah I don't believe that [censored] either....NO WAY are people born gay. That is strictly their decision and theirs only. I don't claim to be a Christian bc I know I sin and I sin everyday but I was raised in church, had to go 3 times a week until I was about 13yrs old and I know a lil bit about the bible as I was raised from very religous parents. Homosexuality will send you straight to hell and there is no way God is gon make somebody born gay. I myself do not understand homos, for the life of me cannot understand why any guy wouldn't LOVE women. I can understand lesbians alot more bc women are very beautiful and sexy. Well, not all of em. But the womans body is a wonderful thing and I know several girls that find other chicks very attractive or think they are sexy so I can understand 2 women being with eachother as long as its not the butch lesbos. </div></div>


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slobber Knocker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Same here....I mean how could a guy look at another guy's hairy arse?? </div></div>


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: duckmeat</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Never ever in the history of ever do I think you could psyche yourself up to puff on a peter or go turd tapping and hemmorhoid pushing for attention. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: duckmeat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You don't turn gay for attention, you turn emo. It's a lot easier on the throat and bootyhole. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: duckmeat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">knew a gay guy once. said he knew he was gay when he got happy in his pants when he was in first grade while wrestling with a friend.

also, he always said he would steal his sister's ken barbie dolls.

</div></div>


LMAO

(singing the old Different Strokes song-what may be right for you may not be right for some). I have heard some pretty crazy stuff on this thread no doubt (does it make it any more right if the 2 lesbians are hot? I mean, c'mon really-wrong is wrong-period). You could argue it forever about being born gay vs choosing it. When I was 8,I had zero doubt that my cousin was a little different (he was 5). The rest of us kids would run around roughousing,and he played with his sister's My Little Pony toys,and was infatuated with her purse. My uncle is the epitome of what you'd call a man's man. He tried his damndest to drag my cousin out into the woods to bowhunt,the creeks to trout fish,and him and my aunt took their family religiously to church every Wednesday night and Sunday morning. I tend to believe that my cousin was "born gay". I went to school with another gay man that in school was the epitome of a "poontang-hound"-aways had the girls around him,and when he came out,it floored me (come to find out it was all a front). I guess he was born gay as well. The 3rd gay man that I know married and raised a family with no one knowing until much later-very well may have been born that way. The other side to that coin for example would be a released inmate who became gay by neccessity. He hits the street,and has access to plenty of wiggletail,but chooses to turn it down for another man. He's made his choice. What about the masses of "straight" black men who choose to go on "the downlow" these days (something that many black women are totally acceptant of)? Society not only makes it "ok to be gay",they glorify it. Turn on your TV set and you see what it is. The same # of folks were gay in the 1950's,but they were terrified to reveal themseves.

I can understand someone that don't believe in God to say, well we or they are just born that way. But for those that love the Lord with all their heart and confess him as their personal Lord and Savior I can't accept that explanation from them. You cannot be a child of God and say that. God says it is an abomination, and he calls it a spirit of "perversion". I hope I spelled that right, anyway, if God says something is wrong then I believe with all my heart that he did not make you that way or choose for you to be damned from the minute you were born. We all have to die one day, we will all find out in the end if God is for real or not. If he accepts homosexuality or not.