ACLU after Gate City High School

GATE CITY ? A prayer delivered prior to a high school football game last week resulted in Gate City High School receiving a letter Tuesday from the Virginia chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union.

In the letter, the ACLU informed the school that it believed a prayer said during a student-led memorial service prior to Gate City?s Sept. 11 home game against Sullivan South High School was unconstitutional.

It also asked for the practice to cease immediately.

?We heard from someone who attends these football games ... that the game last Friday was opened with a prayer and that they had seen this happen last season as well,? said Rebecca K. Glenberg, legal director for the Virginia ACLU. ?The Supreme Court has made it quite clear that public high school football games cannot be opened with an official prayer.?

That holds true even if the opening prayer is done by students, she said.

The prayer was delivered by a student member of the school?s Fellowship of Christian Athletes during a ceremony that included a moment of silence for a Sullivan South football player who died earlier this season and a remembrance of the 9/11 terrorist attacks.

Both high school and school system officials acknowledged that the prayer occurred but disputed the claim that they took place before every football game.

?It was (the ACLU?s) understanding that a similar prayer was delivered at many of the home games last year,? Scott County School Superintendent Jim Scott said. ?Of course, (Gate City Principal Greg) Ervin said not, and he?s been in contact with them. Naturally, though, we?ll abide by the law.?

The prayer Friday night was completely student-led, Scott said, and was not sanctioned by the school.

The point of the service, officials said, was to simply pay respect to victims of the terrorist attacks and to the loss Sullivan South experienced.

?We were just trying to reach out and honor (Sullivan South),? Ervin said. ?This was a special case ? we wanted to honor our neighboring community and the memory of 9/11, and I was proud of my students for doing so.?

Glenberg said the ACLU was satisfied with the response it received from Gate City?s principal and the steps the school plans to take in the future.

?He did indeed call and said we did not have prayers at games last year, and it is not their policy and the students had acted alone,? Glenberg said.

There are no plans to file a lawsuit on the matter, she said.

?We try to contact the officials and try to determine exactly what the facts are and if there?s some other way to resolve it,? Glenberg said. ?Obviously, in this case, it was very simply resolved.?

The ACLU and the person who filed the complaint did not object in any way to the memorial services themselves, she said, just the prayer.

The letter cited the U.S. Supreme Court?s 2000 ruling in Sante Fe Independent School District v. Doe.

In that case, the court found that prayers at public high school football games were, in certain instances, unconstitutional and could amount to a ?school-sponsored religious message.?

But according to the U.S. Department of Education?s Web site on constitutionally protected prayer in public schools, prayer is not attributable to a school and cannot be restricted when a student has ?primary control over the content of their expression.?

?Of course individuals are free to pray before, during and after a game,? Glenberg said. ?But when it becomes part of the official opening of the game and carries those (signs) of school sponsorship, that?s when it becomes impermissible.?

Scott said the school system might seek an opinion from Virginia?s attorney general in order to get a clear interpretation on what exactly can and can?t be done in regard to prayer and school events.

This is completley ridiculous on numerous levels. I really question as to how something that is student lead is illegal. These people go on and out about offending somebody, and while I think we all should respect each other I really fail to see how a prayer could offend anyone. Furthermore, the wording of the Constitution states for the general welfare, it would be impossibe for someone to convince me that the general welfare was not served at Gate City High School last Friday. A young man had just lost his life, two communites with strong roots in Christianity prayed, each side showed their respects and the game was played. If there someone in the stadium that didn't chose to worship God, Jesus, or anything for that matter they were not forced to do so. This is just staggering to me that our country has gotten to this, the groups who try to protect freedom of speech will try to prohibit it. For all the degrees, studies, and scholary awards some of the members of the ACLU have received I really have to question just how smart this group is. More so than ever, this country needs areas like these for more reasons than one.

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Originally Posted by pvfan

This is completley ridiculous on numerous levels. I really question as to how something that is student lead is illegal. These people go on and out about offending somebody, and while I think we all should respect each other I really fail to see how a prayer could offend anyone. Furthermore, the wording of the Constitution states for the general welfare, it would be impossibe for someone to convince me that the general welfare was not served at Gate City High School last Friday. A young man had just lost his life, two communites with strong roots in Christianity prayed, each side showed their respects and the game was played. If there someone in the stadium that didn't chose to worship God, Jesus, or anything for that matter they were not forced to do so. This is just staggering to me that our country has gotten to this, the groups who try to protect freedom of speech will try to prohibit it. For all the degrees, studies, and scholary awards some of the members of the ACLU have received I really have to question just how smart this group is. More so than ever, this country needs areas like these for more reasons than one.

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I agree completely. The way I see it the young lady was using her freedom of speech. I feel the person slapped not only that young girl in the face but Sullivan South and their loss also. It was very inconsiderate of this person and group to bring this up on that night. Not only was South morning their loss but the country was remebering their loss(9-11-01) as well. That was just heartless and gutless to bring it up about that night.

Nothing like the AMERICAN CLASSLESS LOWLIFES for our countrys UNDOING to come up with something like this. Oh... and this is my 1st Amendment right by the way... its called FREEDOM OF SPEECH .... and it comes from a PRIVATE opinion that does not REPRESENT any school or organization that will infringe on your beliefs or on anyone elses.

Here is the thing that started it all: (and oh by the way... the people believed in THEIR CAUSE SO MUCH... they asked not to use their names for fear of HARASSMENT... by WHO? By the MAJORITY who pretty much BELIEVE)............
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Santa Fe Independent School Dist. v. Doe

Supreme Court of the United States
Argued March 29, 2000
Decided June 19, 2000
Full case name Santa Fe Independent School District, Petitioner v. Jane Doe, individually and as next friend for her minor children, Jane and John Doe, et al.
Citations 530 U.S. 290 (more)
Holding
Student-led, student-initiated prayer at football games violates the Establishment Clause.
Court membership
Chief Justice
William Rehnquist

Associate Justices
John P. Stevens ? Sandra Day O'Connor
Antonin Scalia ? Anthony Kennedy
David Souter ? Clarence Thomas
Ruth Bader Ginsburg ? Stephen Breyer

Case opinions
Majority Stevens, joined by O'Connor, Kennedy, Souter, Ginsburg, Breyer (IN FAVOR OF)
Dissent Rehnquist, joined by Scalia, Thomas (AGAINST THE RULING)
Santa Fe Independent School Dist. v. Doe, 530 U.S. 290 (2000), was a case heard before the United States Supreme Court. It ruled that a policy permitting student-led, student-initiated prayer at football games violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. Oral arguments were heard March 29, 2000. The court announced its decision on June 19, holding the policy unconstitutional in a 6-3 decision. School prayer is a controversial topic in American jurisprudence.





Background of the case
The Santa Fe Independent School District (SFISD), a school district in Texas between Houston and Galveston, allowed students to offer Christian prayers over the public address system at home football games. These prayers were given by an elected student chaplain.

Two sets of current or former students and their respective mothers?one Mormon, the other Catholic?objected to this practice and filed a suit on the basis of a violation of the Establishment Clause. Judge Samuel B. Kent of the United States District Court for the Southern District of Texas allowed the plaintiffs to remain anonymous to protect them from harassment. They are referred to as the Does.

During the litigation, the school changed its policy: they would hold two elections under students, the first deciding if "invocations" should be held during football games and the second to elect the student to deliver them. The students elected in favor of prayer; therefore, they were given this right.

The district court allowed this policy, though it required that they be nonsectarian and non-proselytizing. The judge's main authority was Jones v. Clear Creek ISD (Clear Creek ISD being another Houston-area school district), which allows certain school prayers. The district court's final judgment was in December 1996.

Both the SFISD and the Does appealed to the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit. The SFISD appealed because it claimed the words 'nonsectarian and non-proselytizing' should not be necessary. The Does wanted the football prayers found unconstitutional altogether.

In a 2-1 decision, Jacques L. Wiener, Jr., and Carl E. Stewart, ruling for the court, decided that "the words 'nonsectarian, nonproselytizing' are constitutionally necessary components" of a policy governing prayer. Moreover it also decided that these student-led prayers were only acceptable at graduation, not during football games. The majority opinion was written by Wiener.

E. Grady Jolly dissented, objecting that now "the majority expressly exerts control over the content of its citizens' prayers."

The Supreme Court granted certiorari, limited to the following question: "Whether petitioner's policy permitting student-led, student-initiated prayer at football games violates the Establishment Clause."


The Court's decision
The Court held that the policy allowing the student led prayer at the football games was unconstitutional. The majority opinion, written by Justice Stevens depended on Lee v. Weisman, 505 U.S. 577. It held that these pre-game prayers delivered "on school property, at school-sponsored events, over the school's public address system, by a speaker representing the student body, under the supervision of school faculty, and pursuant to a school policy that explicitly and implicitly encourages public prayer" are not private, but public speech. "Regardless of the listener's support for, or objection to, the message, an objective Santa Fe High School student will unquestionably perceive the inevitable pregame prayer as stamped with her school's seal of approval."

A dissenting opinion was written by Chief Justice Rehnquist, joined by Justices Scalia and Thomas. His dissent asserted that the majority opinion "bristles with hostility to all things religious in public life". His material objections were, first that the policy on which the Court has now ruled had not yet put in to practice. "[T]he question is not whether the district's policy may be applied in violation of the Establishment Clause, but whether it inevitably will be." Second, Rehnquist also stated that the speech in question would be private, chosen and delivered by the speaker, rather than public, school-sponsored speech.

I agree, rediculous. The American Legal system is totally messed up. The problem lies in and of the interpretation. America is a country of religious freedom. Christian prayer at this event is not unconstitutional. Although the prayer was probably Christian by nature, which I'm sure not a single one of the 10 K fans at this event were offended by, it also was not a mandatory event. If by that nature, prayer is unconstitutional, so is the National Anthem. Isn't prayer held at every single NASCAR race? Perhaps this involves the seperation of church and state in public schools vs. NASCAR, but apparently common logic and sense is unconstitutional also.

All we can do I suppose is fight for what we believe. After all, this is OUR country, and we have the responsibility to stand up for our beliefs.

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America is a country of religious freedom.

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Interesting take. Most people around here would tell you that America is a country of Christianity, not religious freedom. Well...freedom for Christianity anyways.

The ACLU's in the wrong here for even speaking up, but people (esp. around here) need to remember that it's just as right for someone to practice Bhuddism, Islam, Confucianism, or any other religion as it is for Christianity to be practiced.

NASCAR is a corporation, in no way similiar to an educational institution.

This is one of those times I am just gonna peace out, if I post, everyone will hate me.

If it was student led then there should be no problems.

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Originally Posted by collegetrumpet2010

If it was student led then there should be no problems.

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That's not true.

The article plainly said that student led prayers have been found unconstitutional. Did you not read the original post?

I don't have a problem with the prayer and it happened at more places than just Gate City. I am glad they did it and hope all schools continue to do it each and every week. JMO

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Originally Posted by Biggin

NASCAR is a corporation, in no way similiar to an educational institution.

This is one of those times I am just gonna peace out, if I post, everyone will hate me.

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Everyone already hates you!:p

OK, I can't resist.

Do you guys not see a conflict of interest here? What if a team had a Buddhist? Muslim? Atheist?

You shouldn't force people of other religions to have to sit thru a prayer like that. Imagine if a Muslim student tried this, you guys would go bat****.

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Originally Posted by Biggin

That's not true.

The article plainly said that student led prayers have been found unconstitutional. Did you not read the original post?

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Yes, I did. Did you not read this part from the article?

I still fail to see how this was unconstitutional.

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The letter cited the U.S. Supreme Court?s 2000 ruling in Sante Fe Independent School District v. Doe.

In that case, the court found that prayers at public high school football games were, in certain instances, unconstitutional and could amount to a ?school-sponsored religious message.?

But according to the U.S. Department of Education?s Web site on constitutionally protected prayer in public schools, prayer is not attributable to a school and cannot be restricted when a student has ?primary control over the content of their expression.

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Originally Posted by Biggin

OK, I can't resist.

Do you guys not see a conflict of interest here? What if a team had a Buddhist? Muslim? Atheist?

You shouldn't force people of other religions to have to sit thru a prayer like that. Imagine if a Muslim student tried this, you guys would go bat****.

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But the prayer was not for them it was mostly for the Sullivan South fans that are suffering and for the Logue familly who are Christians. This whole thing would not have bothered me as bad had it been on any other night but that one. As for hating I do not hate you for speaking your mind and I do not hate the person that brought this up. I just thought it was inconsiderate because of the night in question. The main thing she supposedly did wrong was saying in Jesus name at the end. That was her prefference and did not force anyone to say it. She has the right to say her prayer in her own way just like any buddist or other Religion does. If it had been a Buddist or other Religion leading the prayer I would have prayed along with them but not to their God. The person could have done the same or just not prayed at all. That would be their prefference. Sometimes people dont like what we have to say but we have the right to say it anyway.

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Originally Posted by pvfan

?Of course individuals are free to pray before, during and after a game,? Glenberg said. ?But when it becomes part of the official opening of the game and carries those (signs) of school sponsorship, that?s when it becomes impermissible.?

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THAT is the part you are missing.

Even if it is student led, when its an official part of opening a game, that means the school knew about it, and knew what was going to happen, which sounds a lot like the school said its okay.

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Originally Posted by Jason

But the prayer was not for them it was mostly for the Sullivan South fans that are suffering and for the Logue familly who are Christians. This whole thing would not have bothered me as bad had it been on any other night but that one. As for hating I do not hate you for speaking your mind and I do not hate the person that brought this up. I just thought it was inconsiderate because of the night in question. The main thing she supposedly did wrong was saying in Jesus name at the end. That was her prefference and did not force anyone to say it. She has the right to say her prayer in her own way just like any buddist or other Religion does. If it had been a Buddist or other Religion leading the prayer I would have prayed along with them but not to their God. The person could have done the same or just not prayed at all. That would be their prefference. Sometimes people dont like what we have to say but we have the right to say it anyway.

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If a group of Christians get together and pray its completely fine.

Its not the fact the people prayed, if the whole stadium wanted to meet outside in the parking lot for an organized, Christian prayer that would have been fine.

But when they do it as an official part of a HS game, it gives the impression that the
schools are sanctioned Christian prayers and beliefs, which is not okay at all.

I wonder what the constitutionality would be if prior to each football game they open the mic to anyone who would like to say a prayer before a game. What if the only religion that stepped forward each night was christianity? Would this be legal?

I firmly believe that the law was not intentionally broken and the prayer had the best of intentions of trying to comfort two grieving communities. Mr. Logue should not be remembered in this way, by this I mean that he should not be remembered for causing controversy at a game, but he should be remembered as a friend, son, and athlete whose life touched more people than anyone could ever imagine.

Kinda makes me wonder, how many Christians would want to come forward and say to a person of another religion who is holding "noon-time" prayer on school grounds that they are interfering with our beliefs? Which of us would go to the ACLU and ask them to defend your beliefs?

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Originally Posted by Biggin

If a group of Christians get together and pray its completely fine.

Its not the fact the people prayed, if the whole stadium wanted to meet outside in the parking lot for an organized, Christian prayer that would have been fine.

But when they do it as an official part of a HS game, it gives the impression that the
schools are sanctioned Christian prayers and beliefs, which is not okay at all.

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The only part to me that makes it a Christian prayer was when she said in Jesus name at the end. Myself I wouldnt care if it was another Religion leading the prayer. Would not bother me at all because that is their right as an American citizen. I also beleive Gate City would allow another Religion to lead prayer if they asked. But there would be some get mad and want to crucify the school over it but other Religions should have that right along with the rest no matter who it offends. I am not against the person bringing this up soley because I am of the Christian Religion. I am against it because it should be the right of any person regaurdless of their Religion to lead in prayer like that at school or anywhere. I know what you are getting to but to me it shouldnt matter. Maybe if the school could say we as Gate City High School do not sanction the following prayer it could be ok. I think Freedom of Speech or Religion should be practiced anywhere and anytime. To me its a double standerd. Why teach these kids they have Freedom of Religion and Freedom of Speech and then tell them they cant do it on the PA system at a football game?

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Originally Posted by Biggin

OK, I can't resist.

Do you guys not see a conflict of interest here? What if a team had a Buddhist? Muslim? Atheist?

You shouldn't force people of other religions to have to sit thru a prayer like that. Imagine if a Muslim student tried this, you guys would go bat****.

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Your opening a huge can of worms with this. As long as the school lets anybody that wants pray, then they can pray. Muslim students throughout this country are already getting special breaks and the ACLU has not once opened their mouth. Certain religions require garments to be worn at all times on all parts of the body, leagues governing these rules are making exceptions daily to allow those who practice Islam exceptions on wear. This doesn't sound like a big deal and I for one think everybody should be allowed to participate. However, with the advancements of modern technology what you wear can significantly help your performance. What I think many fail to forget is that is a country of varying beliefs, do you really think that there is no where in this country where a coach does not lead prayer based upon Islam? I think they should be allowed to do so, at the same time I think those in this area should be allowed to practice their Christian Faith.

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Originally Posted by imported_centennialdawg

I firmly believe that the law was not intentionally broken and the prayer had the best of intentions of trying to comfort two grieving communities. Mr. Logue should not be remembered in this way, by this I mean that he should not be remembered for causing controversy at a game, but he should be remembered as a friend, son, and athlete whose life touched more people than anyone could ever imagine.

Kinda makes me wonder, how many Christians would want to come forward and say to a person of another religion who is holding "noon-time" prayer on school grounds that they are interfering with our beliefs? Which of us would go to the ACLU and ask them to defend your beliefs?

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You are right. Mr. Logue should not be and will not be remebered like that. I just hate it was brought up on that night and not some other night.

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Originally Posted by pvfan

Your opening a huge can of worms with this. As long as the school lets anybody that wants pray, then they can pray. Muslim students throughout this country are already getting special breaks and the ACLU has not once opened their mouth. Certain religions require garments to be worn at all times on all parts of the body, leagues governing these rules are making exceptions daily to allow those who practice Islam exceptions on wear. This doesn't sound like a big deal and I for one think everybody should be allowed to participate. However, with the advancements of modern technology what you wear can significantly help your performance. What I think many fail to forget is that is a country of varying beliefs, do you really think that there is no where in this country where a coach does not lead prayer based upon Islam? I think they should be allowed to do so, at the same time I think those in this area should be allowed to practice their Christian Faith.

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That is not the point at all;

Thats a lot of posturing and no meat.

When a high school uses an 'official' prayer from a specific religion, no matter if the students start it, its still church and state.

If they prayed in Arabic, its still wrong. You simply cannot, as a school, allow any form of official, denominational prayer.

It was a terrible situation, but why wouldnt a moment of silence suffice?
I feel for the family that had the loss, but that doesn't mean its okay to throw out the constitution.

There was an issue at Lee High this past week too with the game against Middlesboro, there's a letter to the editor about it in the Powell Valley News paper (down in Pennington), apparently someone complained about prayer being led before each game (which they've done for a long time). Before the game this time they just asked for a moment silence in remembrance of 9/11, Lee High's band was on the field getting ready to play the national anthem and before they did a Lee High band member started the Lord's Prayer and was followed by the crowd and others. Players and cheerleaders from both sides went to the center of the field, knelt, and prayed. Very nice moment.

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Originally Posted by pvfan

Your opening a huge can of worms with this. As long as the school lets anybody that wants pray, then they can pray. Muslim students throughout this country are already getting special breaks and the ACLU has not once opened their mouth. Certain religions require garments to be worn at all times on all parts of the body, leagues governing these rules are making exceptions daily to allow those who practice Islam exceptions on wear. This doesn't sound like a big deal and I for one think everybody should be allowed to participate. However, with the advancements of modern technology what you wear can significantly help your performance. What I think many fail to forget is that is a country of varying beliefs, do you really think that there is no where in this country where a coach does not lead prayer based upon Islam? I think they should be allowed to do so, at the same time I think those in this area should be allowed to practice their Christian Faith.

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And I think atheists in this area should be allowed to practice their faith, or lack thereof.

When I go to a football game, or any other function, and people pray, I look like a jackass. People stare, give me dirty looks, etc.. because I wont bow my head and close my eyes.

Is that right? No, but I deal with it, its the area we live in. Non-religious people in this area give you guys EVERYTHING. Why aren't we, as atheists, entitled to be free to do as we feel fit, without having to deal with all the discrimination in this area that comes with 'Not Loving JESUS'?

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Originally Posted by Biggin

And I think atheists in this area should be allowed to practice their faith, or lack thereof.

When I go to a football game, or any other function, and people pray, I look like a jackass. People stare, give me dirty looks, etc.. because I wont bow my head and close my eyes.

Is that right? No, but I deal with it, its the area we live in. Non-religious people in this area give you guys EVERYTHING. Why aren't we, as atheists, entitled to be free to do as we feel fit, without having to deal with all the discrimination in this area that comes with 'Not Loving JESUS'?

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Oh boo hoo, cry me a river. You are free to do as you please! You just said you don't bow your head, close your eyes, etc. That is your choice your free to do so, nobody forces you to bow your head do they? I really can not believe you made this comment, I'm guessing at no point you have ever looked at somebody in a weird manner because they acted out of the norm?

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Originally Posted by Biggin

And I think atheists in this area should be allowed to practice their faith, or lack thereof.

When I go to a football game, or any other function, and people pray, I look like a jackass. People stare, give me dirty looks, etc.. because I wont bow my head and close my eyes.

Is that right? No, but I deal with it, its the area we live in. Non-religious people in this area give you guys EVERYTHING. Why aren't we, as atheists, entitled to be free to do as we feel fit, without having to deal with all the discrimination in this area that comes with 'Not Loving JESUS'?

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Well if they are looking around during prayer then they probably agree with you and are doing the same thing you are doing. They probably think you are looking at them and giving them dirty looks. Atheist's are paranoid.

I understand why they did it, but what they should have done is a "moment of silence". It makes everyone happy, you can pray to God, Allah, the devil or not pray at all...most places do that. While I'm not all for the ACLU, you have to understand is that there has to be someone/maybe more who complained about this...they have no clue otherwise what's going on at some HS football game. Can't blame the ACLU when they are doing what they do, when there are clearly some(maybe even one) that was offended by it. GC does do this, when we played them in the LPD tourney a few years ago..after the game, us and GC was asked to take a knee while we were led in a prayer. A moment of silence is what was needed, it steps on no ones toes.

At the time I was still christian, so I didn't really have a problem with it. But what was I supposed to have done if I was agnostic at the time?

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Originally Posted by R13

At the time I was still christian, so I didn't really have a problem with it. But what was I supposed to have done if I was agnostic at the time?

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Stand there and give biggun dirty looks would have sufficed. Or you could have done the same thing you would have during a moment of silence

If only the South had won,,,,,the war that is. **** liberals have ruined this country. Why would a person be bothered by prayer to a God that you dont believe in, odd.

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Originally Posted by MapleGap

If only the South had won,,,,,the war that is.**** liberals have ruined this country.

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Dumbest ****ing **** ever said on this forum.

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Originally Posted by MikeJones

Stand there and give biggun dirty looks would have sufficed. Or you could have done the same thing you would have during a moment of silence

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So I stand over to the side by myself, with hundreds of people are watching and judging like usual?

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Originally Posted by R13

Dumbest ****ing **** ever said on this forum.





So I stand over to the side by myself, with hundreds of people are watching and judging like usual?

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I thought those hundreds of folks would be praying.

I've said this before on here and I'll say it again--forget liberal or conservative, the worst thing that ever happened to personal faith was organized religion--of ANY type.

Not that I know of, it was for the two teams, I doubt hardly anyone in the stands could hear what he was saying.

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Originally Posted by R13

So I stand over to the side by myself, with hundreds of people are watching and judging like usual?

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If thats what you believe in then yes.

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Originally Posted by pvfan

Oh boo hoo, cry me a river. You are free to do as you please! You just said you don't bow your head, close your eyes, etc. That is your choice your free to do so, nobody forces you to bow your head do they? I really can not believe you made this comment, I'm guessing at no point you have ever looked at somebody in a weird manner because they acted out of the norm?

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You JUST said in your post that Christians' should be allowed, in this area, to practice their religion. Why shouldn't atheists?

Why do I have to be subjected to your prayers and such?

Let me ask you this; if I was leading a prayer somewhere, and I said God doesnt exist, people put faith in fairy tales, etc...would you be offended? I guarantee it.

Then why is it so wrong that I get offended by people just assuming everyone is Christian and agrees with praying and doing things the 'Christian' way?

When I go to a public school sporting event, I should NOT be made to sit and listen to a Christian prayer that is sanctioned by a school. That is saying 'THIS SCHOOL BELIEVES IN JESUS!"

How is that right in the least?

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Originally Posted by MapleGap

If only the South had won,,,,,the war that is. **** liberals have ruined this country. Why would a person be bothered by prayer to a God that you dont believe in, odd.

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Because, when a pubic school sanctions Christian prayer, it is saying that they fully endorse Christianity, which is highly illegal and immoral.

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Originally Posted by CoeburnCane

I've said this before on here and I'll say it again--forget liberal or conservative, the worst thing that ever happened to personal faith was organized religion--of ANY type.

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Theres no hope man.

People fail to realize the danger in organized religion.

They only recognize the dangers when its Muslims being organized and such.

But when Christians get together and try and rule a country, it is seen as a good thing, what this country needs.

I am American, just as American as anyone else, but my morals are dictated by a God that doesn't exist.
How is that right, or fair?

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Originally Posted by Biggin

Theres no hope man.

People fail to realize the danger in organized religion.

They only recognize the dangers when its Muslims being organized and such.

But when Christians get together and try and rule a country, it is seen as a good thing, what this country needs.

I am American, just as American as anyone else, but my morals are dictated by a God that doesn't exist.
How is that right, or fair?

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You're fighting a losing battle. I'd rather have an open minded person like yourself in my corner, than a hate monger flying the Christian flag like someone along the lines of mr. maples gap.

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Originally Posted by Ironlung

You're fighting a losing battle. I'd rather have an open minded person like yourself in my corner, than a hate monger flying the Christian flag like someone along the lines of mr. maples gap.

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Thanks Lung, I really appreciate it.

I am not a monster because I don't share the majority belief here, but others make people like myself out to be monsters because we don't share the same moral rigidity that most in this area consider right.

And, for the record, I have nothing against Christians, or Christianity. People are more than welcome to believe in whatever the hell they want; but they shouldn't expect everyone to agree, nor should they go against the Constitution, no matter the circumstances.

A moment of silence offends no one, why can't we all just settle on that?

Why? Because Christians, as a whole, want the rest of us to pray with them and do as they want us to do, not be accepting of others and agree that a moment of silence is the best course of action in this scenario.

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Originally Posted by Biggin

Thanks Lung, I really appreciate it.

I am not a monster because I don't share the majority belief here, but others make people like myself out to be monsters because we don't share the same moral rigidity that most in this area consider right.

And, for the record, I have nothing against Christians, or Christianity. People are more than welcome to believe in whatever the hell they want; but they shouldn't expect everyone to agree, nor should they go against the Constitution, no matter the circumstances.

A moment of silence offends no one, why can't we all just settle on that?

Why? Because Christians, as a whole, want the rest of us to pray with them and do as they want us to do, not be accepting of others and agree that a moment of silence is the best course of action in this scenario.

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We're on the same page and seem to hold the same beliefs. I just use that time for scouting out the female talent in the stands. :) For anyone interested in finding that same talent, please look for Tre Meade's family. :)