Evangelicans?

EKET, Nigeria - The 9-year-old boy lay on a bloodstained hospital sheet crawling with ants, staring blindly at the wall.

His family pastor had accused him of being a witch, and his father then tried to force acid down his throat as an exorcism. It spilled as he struggled, burning away his face and eyes. The emaciated boy barely had strength left to whisper the name of the church that had denounced him ? Mount Zion Lighthouse.

A month later, he died.

Nwanaokwo Edet was one of an increasing number of children in Africa accused of witchcraft by pastors and then tortured or killed, often by family members. Pastors were involved in half of 200 cases of "witch children" reviewed by the AP, and 13 churches were named in the case files.

Some of the churches involved are renegade local branches of international franchises. Their parishioners take literally the Biblical exhortation, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

"It is an outrage what they are allowing to take place in the name of Christianity," said Gary Foxcroft, head of nonprofit Stepping Stones Nigeria.

?Children are defenseless?
For their part, the families are often extremely poor, and sometimes even relieved to have one less mouth to feed. Poverty, conflict and poor education lay the foundation for accusations, which are then triggered by the death of a relative, the loss of a job or the denunciation of a pastor on the make, said Martin Dawes, a spokesman for the United Nations Children's Fund.

"When communities come under pressure, they look for scapegoats," he said. "It plays into traditional beliefs that someone is responsible for a negative change ... and children are defenseless."

The idea of witchcraft is hardly new, but it has taken on new life recently partly because of a rapid growth in evangelical Christianity. Campaigners against the practice say around 15,000 children have been accused in two of Nigeria's 36 states over the past decade and around 1,000 have been murdered. In the past month alone, three Nigerian children accused of witchcraft were killed and another three were set on fire.

Nigeria is one of the heartlands of abuse, but hardly the only one: the United Nations Children's Fund says tens of thousands of children have been targeted throughout Africa.

Competition for congregations
Church signs sprout around every twist of the road snaking through the jungle between Uyo, the capital of the southern Akwa Ibom state where Nwanaokwo lay, and Eket, home to many more rejected "witch children." Churches outnumber schools, clinics and banks put together. Many promise to solve parishioner's material worries as well as spiritual ones ? eight out of ten Nigerians struggle by on less than $2 a day.

"Poverty must catch fire," insists the Born 2 Rule Crusade on one of Uyo's main streets.

"Where little shots become big shots in a short time," promises the Winner's Chapel down the road.

"Pray your way to riches," advises Embassy of Christ a few blocks away.

It's hard for churches to carve out a congregation with so much competition. So some pastors establish their credentials by accusing children of witchcraft.

Nwanaokwo said he knew the pastor who accused him only as Pastor King. Mount Zion Lighthouse in Nigeria at first confirmed that a Pastor King worked for them, then denied that they knew any such person.

Bishop A.D. Ayakndue, the head of the church in Nigeria, said pastors were encouraged to pray about witchcraft, but not to abuse children.

"We pray over that problem (of witchcraft) very powerfully," he said. "But we can never hurt a child."

U.S. branches ?had no idea?
The Nigerian church is a branch of a Californian church by the same name. But the California church says it lost touch with its Nigerian offshoots several years ago.


"I had no idea," said church elder Carrie King by phone from Tracy, Calif. "I knew people believed in witchcraft over there but we believe in the power of prayer, not physically harming people."

The Mount Zion Lighthouse ? also named by three other families as the accuser of their children ? is part of the powerful Pentecostal Fellowship of Nigeria. The Fellowship's president, Ayo Oritsejafor, said the Fellowship was the fastest-growing religious group in Nigeria, with more than 30 million members.

"We have grown so much in the past few years we cannot keep an eye on everybody," he explained.


Another page of the story on the link.

African churches attack kids as ?witches? - Africa - msnbc.com

A better thread title might have been "Nigerians"?"

yeah or bad parents or children abused by bad parents or psychos. There are plenty of things to name this.

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Originally Posted by Gotch

A better thread title might have been "Nigerians"?"

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These were evangelical churches, people forget the same thing was happening here 3, 4 hundred years ago with Christianity. Evangelicalism is a fad that has gotten way out of hand here and elsewhere.

Just because some Christians used to do bad things does not mean that all Christians do. Not everyone is the same and some people actually have common sense and know what God expects of you. Some people are just crazy and use the term "Christian" to try and justify the things that they are doing wrong. I would never dream of hurting anyone much less a child and I am a Christian. That is kinda like saying that all atheists are devil worshippers and sacrifice people and animals on a daily basis. I don't believe that they are but you can't lump everyone in the same pot.

Seems to me to be more likely influenced by cultural beliefs than actual religious ones.

I certainly agree with that! Some cultures have WEIRD beliefs and practices.

You know Joseph Stalin was studying theology until he became enthralled in the writings of Marx and Darwin. True story......

Mainstream history doesn't often mention his fascination with Darwin, only Marx, but several of his fellow students later said that the real change in him came about when he became so deeply interested in the work of Darwin.

So, is Darwinism responsible for all of the people he killed?

If you are asking me then to be honest you are asking the wrong person. :) I am not even going to try to act like I know who you are talking about. I have heard the names before and although it is very embarassing to admit but I have no clue as to who they are or what they done. I think I may need to read more!!!

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Originally Posted by Gotch

You know Joseph Stalin was studying theology until he became enthralled in the writings of Marx and Darwin. True story......

Mainstream history doesn't often mention his fascination with Darwin, only Marx, but several of his fellow students later said that the real change in him came about when he became so deeply interested in the work of Darwin.

So, is Darwinism responsible for all of the people he killed?

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Apples and oranges, really reaching if that were to be considered. This is the result the bible and evangelicalism being injected into that area...it's not going to end well when people are introduced to the OT.

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Originally Posted by cosmo99

Just because some Christians used to do bad things does not mean that all Christians do. Not everyone is the same and some people actually have common sense and know what God expects of you. Some people are just crazy and use the term "Christian" to try and justify the things that they are doing wrong. I would never dream of hurting anyone much less a child and I am a Christian. That is kinda like saying that all atheists are devil worshippers and sacrifice people and animals on a daily basis. I don't believe that they are but you can't lump everyone in the same pot.

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I never said they did, but Christianity and religion itself have been disastrous to society, this is another example. As gruesome as this sounds, this isn't insanity, this is uneducated people that have been introduced to the OT/Bible itself....which is full of all kinds of this. This is what happens when people go into these countries and try to inject their beliefs because they think God wants them to, it happens here all the time, trying to "save" people...of course something like this is more rare here. Evangelicalism is a pretty big problem here too IMO, but like I said rarely on this level now days.

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Originally Posted by R13

EKET, Nigeria - The 9-year-old boy lay on a bloodstained hospital sheet crawling with ants, staring blindly at the wall.

His family pastor had accused him of being a witch, and his father then tried to force acid down his throat as an exorcism. It spilled as he struggled, burning away his face and eyes. The emaciated boy barely had strength left to whisper the name of the church that had denounced him ? Mount Zion Lighthouse.

A month later, he died.

Nwanaokwo Edet was one of an increasing number of children in Africa accused of witchcraft by pastors and then tortured or killed, often by family members. Pastors were involved in half of 200 cases of "witch children" reviewed by the AP, and 13 churches were named in the case files.

Some of the churches involved are renegade local branches of international franchises. Their parishioners take literally the Biblical exhortation, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

"It is an outrage what they are allowing to take place in the name of Christianity," said Gary Foxcroft, head of nonprofit Stepping Stones Nigeria.

?Children are defenseless?
For their part, the families are often extremely poor, and sometimes even relieved to have one less mouth to feed. Poverty, conflict and poor education lay the foundation for accusations, which are then triggered by the death of a relative, the loss of a job or the denunciation of a pastor on the make, said Martin Dawes, a spokesman for the United Nations Children's Fund.

"When communities come under pressure, they look for scapegoats," he said. "It plays into traditional beliefs that someone is responsible for a negative change ... and children are defenseless."

The idea of witchcraft is hardly new, but it has taken on new life recently partly because of a rapid growth in evangelical Christianity. Campaigners against the practice say around 15,000 children have been accused in two of Nigeria's 36 states over the past decade and around 1,000 have been murdered. In the past month alone, three Nigerian children accused of witchcraft were killed and another three were set on fire.

Nigeria is one of the heartlands of abuse, but hardly the only one: the United Nations Children's Fund says tens of thousands of children have been targeted throughout Africa.

Competition for congregations
Church signs sprout around every twist of the road snaking through the jungle between Uyo, the capital of the southern Akwa Ibom state where Nwanaokwo lay, and Eket, home to many more rejected "witch children." Churches outnumber schools, clinics and banks put together. Many promise to solve parishioner's material worries as well as spiritual ones ? eight out of ten Nigerians struggle by on less than $2 a day.

"Poverty must catch fire," insists the Born 2 Rule Crusade on one of Uyo's main streets.

"Where little shots become big shots in a short time," promises the Winner's Chapel down the road.

"Pray your way to riches," advises Embassy of Christ a few blocks away.

It's hard for churches to carve out a congregation with so much competition. So some pastors establish their credentials by accusing children of witchcraft.

Nwanaokwo said he knew the pastor who accused him only as Pastor King. Mount Zion Lighthouse in Nigeria at first confirmed that a Pastor King worked for them, then denied that they knew any such person.

Bishop A.D. Ayakndue, the head of the church in Nigeria, said pastors were encouraged to pray about witchcraft, but not to abuse children.

"We pray over that problem (of witchcraft) very powerfully," he said. "But we can never hurt a child."

U.S. branches ?had no idea?
The Nigerian church is a branch of a Californian church by the same name. But the California church says it lost touch with its Nigerian offshoots several years ago.


"I had no idea," said church elder Carrie King by phone from Tracy, Calif. "I knew people believed in witchcraft over there but we believe in the power of prayer, not physically harming people."

The Mount Zion Lighthouse ? also named by three other families as the accuser of their children ? is part of the powerful Pentecostal Fellowship of Nigeria. The Fellowship's president, Ayo Oritsejafor, said the Fellowship was the fastest-growing religious group in Nigeria, with more than 30 million members.

"We have grown so much in the past few years we cannot keep an eye on everybody," he explained.


Another page of the story on the link.

African churches attack kids as ?witches? - Africa - msnbc.com

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"Nigeria is one of the heartlands of abuse, but hardly the only one: the United Nations Children's Fund says tens of thousands of children have been targeted throughout Africa."


LOL at you trying to tag true Christianity with this.:rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gotch

You know Joseph Stalin was studying theology until he became enthralled in the writings of Marx and Darwin. True story......

Mainstream history doesn't often mention his fascination with Darwin, only Marx, but several of his fellow students later said that the real change in him came about when he became so deeply interested in the work of Darwin.

So, is Darwinism responsible for all of the people he killed?

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What is wrong with uttering Darwin and Hitler in the same sentence?:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by valour

"Nigeria is one of the heartlands of abuse, but hardly the only one: the United Nations Children's Fund says tens of thousands of children have been targeted throughout Africa."


LOL at you trying to tag true Christianity with this.:rolleyes:

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That excuse get's old, "true" this and that. True (any religion) is fit to whatever people what it to be.

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Originally Posted by R13

That excuse get's old, "true" this and that. True (any religion) is fit to whatever people what it to be.

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No, not in true Christianity and in born again believers your logic does not apply. What you mention does happen, but not in the area of those who truely follow Jesus. If you will read from Matthew- Revelation you can see that what it teaches does not support what you posted. It is that simple, yes.

Evangelicalism is a fad, Falwell had a big part in it to try to keep people interested, so I don't hold it to be anything special. Ask what "true" Christianity is and the answers will vary, same core, but everyone picks and chooses what they want to follow in the Bible. Did I not say it was mainly from the OT, Matthew-Rev. isn't the Old Testament. People use the OT when it'c convenient for them, kind of like using it to explain where we came from, then ignoring the rest, not-so-nice parts in the rest of the OT.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by R13

Evangelicalism is a fad, Falwell had a big part in it to try to keep people interested, so I don't hold it to be anything special. Ask what "true" Christianity is and the answers will vary, same core, but everyone picks and chooses what they want to follow in the Bible. Did I not say it was mainly from the OT, Matthew-Rev. isn't the Old Testament. People use the OT when it'c convenient for them, kind of like using it to explain where we came from, then ignoring the rest, not-so-nice parts in the rest of the OT.

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The new Testament is not a continuance of the Old Testament it is a replacement. Jesus filfilled the law. Genesis does tell the story of where we came from does it not? That is the reason we must refer back to it.

What concern do you have that took place in the old testament? I am sure I know the things you will bring up, I am looking forward to it. Everyone cannot be right about what true Christianity is that is why God's Word has the only right answer to this issue.

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Originally Posted by valour

The new Testament is not a continuance of the Old Testament it is a replacement. Jesus filfilled the law. Genesis does tell the story of where we came from does it not? That is the reason we must refer back to it.

What concern do you have that took place in the old testament? I am sure I know the things you will bring up, I am looking forward to it. Everyone cannot be right about what true Christianity is that is why God's Word has the only right answer to this issue.

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Continuance? No, I agree. Replacement? Absolutely not, not even close. If it were a replacement, things like Genesis would be in there. Why refer back to it if it's not supposed to be used? How about the Ten Commandments? We should take those literal, but not the rest?


Oh just verses that condone slavery, degrade women(just like those evil muslims), kill that witch, stone that promiscuous woman, not to forget those records of God ordering villages slaughtered(babies and all). Well God should be a little more clear then shouldn't he? I mean when it comes to eternal hell, there's no room for misinterpretation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by R13

Apples and oranges, really reaching if that were to be considered. This is the result the bible and evangelicalism being injected into that area...it's not going to end well when people are introduced to the OT.

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Actually it's apples and apples. Hitler made it abundantly clear that his master race goals and the resulting extermination of Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, homosexuals, etc. was based soundly in Darwinism. Stalin was not so vocal about it, but the writings of people who knew him in his late teens and early twenties seems to strongly suggest that Darwin was the primary influence to his actions.

So, did Darwinism kill these people, or did twisted individuals use Darwinism as an excuse or a vehicle for action they were responsible for?

Christ was about not hurting one another, doing violence in the name of the religion that bares his name is the sole responsibility of those individuals who perpetrate the violence.

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Originally Posted by valour

The new Testament is not a continuance of the Old Testament it is a replacement. Jesus filfilled the law.

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Absolutely

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Originally Posted by R13

Continuance? No, I agree. Replacement? Absolutely not, not even close. If it were a replacement, things like Genesis would be in there. Why refer back to it if it's not supposed to be used? How about the Ten Commandments? We should take those literal, but not the rest?


Oh just verses that condone slavery, degrade women(just like those evil muslims), kill that witch, stone that promiscuous woman, not to forget those records of God ordering villages slaughtered(babies and all). Well God should be a little more clear then shouldn't he? I mean when it comes to eternal hell, there's no room for misinterpretation.

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Things in Genesis aare still there. God is the Alpha and Omega. The Ten commandments are still a part of God's precepts. What this means is that we no longer have to answer to the law, because the law leads to death, but now through Jesus Christ we have Grace and Mercy.

If you will look at it correctly that was the law the governed Israel, God's chosen people at that time. Evil was rampant and God gave them many chances to turn from their evil ways, but they chose not to. We can thank God today that the blood of Christ covers our sin and we can receive forgiveness.

God has been very clear after the atonement we received from the blood of Christ that was shed.

The Bible proclaims that there is no other name by which man can be saved other than Jesus Christ. I would suggest that you do a study into the things that you mentioned happening in the Old Testament. Hermeneutics is the study of interpretation theory , there are rules ot interpretation. You must consider the context in which it is written and what the people practiced and accepted at that time. Their History, culture, and culture are things you have to consider while reading and drawing a conclusion.

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Originally Posted by Gotch

Actually it's apples and apples. Hitler made it abundantly clear that his master race goals and the resulting extermination of Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, homosexuals, etc. was based soundly in Darwinism. Stalin was not so vocal about it, but the writings of people who knew him in his late teens and early twenties seems to strongly suggest that Darwin was the primary influence to his actions.

So, did Darwinism kill these people, or did twisted individuals use Darwinism as an excuse or a vehicle for action they were responsible for?

Christ was about not hurting one another, doing violence in the name of the religion that bares his name is the sole responsibility of those individuals who perpetrate the violence.

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LOL Evolution and evolutionary racism isn't the same thing. One is Darwin's theory, the other is an insane and unscientific eugenics theory. He also was a firm believer in an Aryan Jesus, that'd seem to make just as much sense for his motivation. I get what you're saying man, but these things in the Bible were just as they sound and were accepted by God.

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Originally Posted by valour

Things in Genesis aare still there. God is the Alpha and Omega. The Ten commandments are still a part of God's precepts. What this means is that we no longer have to answer to the law, because the law leads to death, but now through Jesus Christ we have Grace and Mercy.

If you will look at it correctly that was the law the governed Israel, God's chosen people at that time. Evil was rampant and God gave them many chances to turn from their evil ways, but they chose not to. We can thank God today that the blood of Christ covers our sin and we can receive forgiveness.

God has been very clear after the atonement we received from the blood of Christ that was shed.

The Bible proclaims that there is no other name by which man can be saved other than Jesus Christ. I would suggest that you do a study into the things that you mentioned happening in the Old Testament. Hermeneutics is the study of interpretation theory , there are rules ot interpretation. You must consider the context in which it is written and what the people practiced and accepted at that time. Their History, culture, and culture are things you have to consider while reading and drawing a conclusion.

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And the bad things are still there too, you can't have it both ways, accept one thing and not the other. They all came from the same time, so should we write the Ten Commandments off too? I do, because they're mostly about worshiping him and they are put where they don't need to be. But I don't think a believer feels the same. There's not really a "context" issue, most verses are pretty clear with the rest using words that are not common now, but a simple search can take care of that problem. Nothing like the things I mentioned are acceptable in any way, that's like me saying Muhammad's relationship with young girls was okay because it was okay during that time.


The Bible is full of fallacies and you can find most of it in other stories before it. There was several Jesus's so to speak, having the same exact story, but hundreds to thousands of years before he was here...anyone want to explain that? Or how the Epic of Gilgamesh is so similar to the Bible, but before it?

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Originally Posted by R13

LOL Evolution and evolutionary racism isn't the same thing. One is Darwin's theory, the other is an insane and unscientific eugenics theory. He also was a firm believer in an Aryan Jesus, that'd seem to make just as much sense for his motivation. I get what you're saying man, but these things in the Bible were just as they sound and were accepted by God.

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You see, that was my exact point. All you have to do now is replace evolution with Christian. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by R13

The Bible is full of fallacies and you can find most of it in other stories before it. There was several Jesus's so to speak, having the same exact story, but hundreds to thousands of years before he was here...anyone want to explain that? Or how the Epic of Gilgamesh is so similar to the Bible, but before it?

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I've been through this at least a hundred times. Practically no real scholars accept this position but it has risen out of the same camp as the historical Jesus never existed argument. Pretty far out stuff.

My time will be limited (putting a roof on my house) so it might be best if I simply direct you to the best online source for information on this. Very detailed with every I dotted and every T crossed.

Genesis merely a rip-off of other ANE lit

Btw, the guy at the infidels site who was responsible several years ago for starting the whole modern "Jesus never existed" fad has admitted that he firmly believes a historical Jesus did exist lol.

Just a side note....

What I'm curious about is why, when something like this happens and Christians have their religion abused and used for obvious evil--why don't Christians get just as mad/madder than the rest of society? I kind of expected that out of this thread, but instead it's turned into a deconstruction of OT vs. NT to try to somehow justify (?) what happened.

These "churches" used Christianity as an excuse to do heinous things. Where's the outrage? Where's the outcry to religious leaders to call these terrible human beings to the carpet for standing behind Christianity as a shield to do sinful things?

To me, it's false prophets like this that should really be taken to task by the core of Christianity today as opposed to homosexuals who want to get married, for instance.

The death of children in the name of Christianity pisses me off a lot worse than a whole lot of banners the religious right movements want to take on today.

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Originally Posted by Gotch

I've been through this at least a hundred times. Practically no real scholars accept this position but it has risen out of the same camp as the historical Jesus never existed argument. Pretty far out stuff.

My time will be limited (putting a roof on my house) so it might be best if I simply direct you to the best online source for information on this. Very detailed with every I dotted and every T crossed.

Genesis merely a rip-off of other ANE lit

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When did I say he never existed? I think he did historically, but a divine being? Nope. Maybe a very controversial teacher that was made a martyr, he needed a good story, so you collect the ones of "gods" before him.

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Originally Posted by R13

LOL Evolution and evolutionary racism isn't the same thing. One is Darwin's theory, the other is an insane and unscientific eugenics theory. He also was a firm believer in an Aryan Jesus, that'd seem to make just as much sense for his motivation. I get what you're saying man, but these things in the Bible were just as they sound and were accepted by God.




And the bad things are still there too, you can't have it both ways, accept one thing and not the other. They all came from the same time, so should we write the Ten Commandments off too? I do, because they're mostly about worshiping him and they are put where they don't need to be. But I don't think a believer feels the same. There's not really a "context" issue, most verses are pretty clear with the rest using words that are not common now, but a simple search can take care of that problem. Nothing like the things I mentioned are acceptable in any way, that's like me saying Muhammad's relationship with young girls was okay because it was okay during that time.


The Bible is full of fallacies and you can find most of it in other stories before it. There was several Jesus's so to speak, having the same exact story, but hundreds to thousands of years before he was here...anyone want to explain that? Or how the Epic of Gilgamesh is so similar to the Bible, but before it?

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The lie of survival of the fittest was twisted by Hitler, I believe that. Anyway. If we jsut obey this commandment the ten are fulfilled. Love thy Lord thy God with all your heart and your neighbor likewise. Who are you to analize the Bible and say what should be where? lol.

Please present what you believe to be fallacies?:)

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Originally Posted by CoeburnCane

What I'm curious about is why, when something like this happens and Christians have their religion abused and used for obvious evil--why don't Christians get just as mad/madder than the rest of society? I kind of expected that out of this thread, but instead it's turned into a deconstruction of OT vs. NT to try to somehow justify (?) what happened.

These "churches" used Christianity as an excuse to do heinous things. Where's the outrage? Where's the outcry to religious leaders to call these terrible human beings to the carpet for standing behind Christianity as a shield to do sinful things?

To me, it's false prophets like this that should really be taken to task by the core of Christianity today as opposed to homosexuals who want to get married, for instance.

The death of children in the name of Christianity pisses me off a lot worse than a whole lot of banners the religious right movements want to take on today.

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I am outraged that this happened, sorry I forget to voice that. I am also outraged that an atheist would attempt to use it to pin this on true Christians. We all know that that is a false doctrine, but what can we do about it if that type of behavior is accepted there where the boy lived? The only way to stop this is spread truth, but then a person must accept it. I do believe this is a very important issue, so if you have any suggestions as to how to do anyhting other than to speak out against it I am all ears.

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Originally Posted by Gotch

Actually it's apples and apples. Hitler made it abundantly clear that his master race goals and the resulting extermination of Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, homosexuals, etc. was based soundly in Darwinism. Stalin was not so vocal about it, but the writings of people who knew him in his late teens and early twenties seems to strongly suggest that Darwin was the primary influence to his actions.

So, did Darwinism kill these people, or did twisted individuals use Darwinism as an excuse or a vehicle for action they were responsible for?

Christ was about not hurting one another, doing violence in the name of the religion that bares his name is the sole responsibility of those individuals who perpetrate the violence.

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Yes, you are 100% right.

That is true, then why does the United States keep crusading against Islam?
Islam is not about hurting people, not anymore than Christianity is.
Any terrorist attacks done in the name of Islam should not be held against Islam, correct?

btw Gotch this isnt about you per se, ive never seen you condemn Islam, but I have heard numerous Christians spew hatred about Islam for doing the same kind of things extreme Christian radicals have done throughout history.

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Originally Posted by valour

The lie of survival of the fittest was twisted by Hitler, I believe that. Anyway. If we jsut obey this commandment the ten are fulfilled. Love thy Lord thy God with all your heart and your neighbor likewise. Who are you to analize the Bible and say what should be where? lol.

Please present what you believe to be fallacies?:)

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Don't need any of them IMO. Good people know not to steal, lie, kill, be good to each other etc. No religion makes a person a better one. It doesn't take an expert to analyze the Bible and see what's wrong with it, #1 it was written by men, that they could put whatever they want in there and no one is suppose to question it. Ever find it odd that whenever God speaks to someone, its in private? Never to a group of people, I always found that suspect. And there isn't much truth in there, what's been proven? No adam and eve, no flood/ark, degrades women, the earth doesn't have corners, no one that wrote it ever even met jesus...which those miracles of his never proven to have happen, Thomas Jefferson agrees. Its an old book that's taken too seriously, too far and been used as a tool along with most religions to do harm. World would be a lot better off without it.

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Originally Posted by R13

Don't need any of them IMO. Good people know not to steal, lie, kill, be good to each other etc. No religion makes a person a better one. It doesn't take an expert to analyze the Bible and see what's wrong with it, #1 it was written by men, that they could put whatever they want in there and no one is suppose to question it. Ever find it odd that whenever God speaks to someone, its in private? Never to a group of people, I always found that suspect. And there isn't much truth in there, what's been proven? No adam and eve, no flood/ark, degrades women, the earth doesn't have corners, no one that wrote it ever even met jesus...which those miracles of his never proven to have happen, Thomas Jefferson agrees. Its an old book that's taken too seriously, too far and been used as a tool along with most religions to do harm. World would be a lot better off without it.

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It was written by men of God under the inspiration of God. Why would Matthew, Mark , or anyone else teach people to do good things and love one another? What motive would they have to do that? What would they gain from that?

God created Adam and Eve in the beginning, God does not degrade against women, he chose a woman to give birth to the Savior of the World. If I am not mistaken the Apostles walked with Jesus when Jesus was in the flesh, so they knew him well. I agree that the world would be a better place without religion, but it would be a better place if Jesus was accepted and not rejected.

R13 alot of hienous crimes are comitted by men in your age range. Should we lump you in with them? Most of your post's are to debunk christianity. Why not worry about your own salvation and not others path to it?

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Originally Posted by valour

It was written by men of God under the inspiration of God. Why would Matthew, Mark , or anyone else teach people to do good things and love one another? What motive would they have to do that? What would they gain from that?

God created Adam and Eve in the beginning, God does not degrade against women, he chose a woman to give birth to the Savior of the World. If I am not mistaken the Apostles walked with Jesus when Jesus was in the flesh, so they knew him well. I agree that the world would be a better place without religion, but it would be a better place if Jesus was accepted and not rejected.

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Why wouldn't they? I never said they were bad people, maybe they were great people, I promote being good and doing good things too...they just said jesus told them to, I don't think anyone needs to be told that or have to have a book to understand. And yes the bible does degrade women, it says they should keep their head covered, not speak in church etc. And yes, they did walk with him, but they are the ones that wrote the bible...it was handed down word from them. To the last part, Jesus isn't disliked by many, I like him, muslims, buddhists etc. Like him. And his story isn't much different than others and others have similar teachings...I actually think Buddha is very similar and also says to question everything, no matter if he said it, to not accept it unless it agrees with their own common sense and reason.

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Originally Posted by CoeburnCane

What I'm curious about is why, when something like this happens and Christians have their religion abused and used for obvious evil--why don't Christians get just as mad/madder than the rest of society? I kind of expected that out of this thread, but instead it's turned into a deconstruction of OT vs. NT to try to somehow justify (?) what happened.

These "churches" used Christianity as an excuse to do heinous things. Where's the outrage? Where's the outcry to religious leaders to call these terrible human beings to the carpet for standing behind Christianity as a shield to do sinful things?

To me, it's false prophets like this that should really be taken to task by the core of Christianity today as opposed to homosexuals who want to get married, for instance.

The death of children in the name of Christianity pisses me off a lot worse than a whole lot of banners the religious right movements want to take on today.

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I'm in agreement with this for the most part.

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Originally Posted by R13

When did I say he never existed? I think he did historically, but a divine being? Nope. Maybe a very controversial teacher that was made a martyr, he needed a good story, so you collect the ones of "gods" before him.

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I didn't say that you did say that. I said the question you posted came for the same basic camp as that question. I then posted a link that answers your question in minute detail.

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Originally Posted by valour

I am outraged that this happened, sorry I forget to voice that.

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OK--then remember what happened in this thread and use it when someone abuses Christianity to perpetrate things that are wrong & evil. It happens WAY more than it should, every single day.

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I am also outraged that an atheist would attempt to use it to pin this on true Christians.

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If you're a true Christian, stand up against the false ones and you don't have anything to worry about, nor be upset about when someone does what you should have done in the first place as a "true Christian"--which is call these cats to the carpet and be excessively outraged. If you're a "true Christian" and get bristled when people attack Christianity for something like this, maybe you're NOT a "true Christian" after all.

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We all know that that is a false doctrine, but what can we do about it if that type of behavior is accepted there where the boy lived?

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Just because something is "accepted" somewhere doesn't mean it's right in every situation. See the bastardization of Christianity in America to the point of abuse and the religion's use of an excuse to do whatever "in God's name" and get away with it. If these "churches" who did this were for real to start with, they would have went out of their way to distance themselves from this practice and offer an alternative...but they didn't. And it's not their fault b/c they didn't do that--it's their fault because they stood behind this practice as theologically sound.

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The only way to stop this is spread truth, but then a person must accept it.

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News Flash: Not everyone's going to accept Christianity. Instead of pushing 100 bible verses at somebody and preaching til you're red in the face, offer a hug and attempt to understand their culture and what they're going through. THEN--maybe some headway can be made that's positive change that makes us all better. Jesus did preach to the masses, but the way he taught Christian love was by example, which was offering comfort and a shoulder to lean on to the least of all of us. Most Christians we see today are too busy trying to beat people over the head with the Bible (any version you want to name) as opposed to showing true human compassion towards their fellow man.

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I do believe this is a very important issue, so if you have any suggestions as to how to do anyhting other than to speak out against it I am all ears.

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See above. Those that put a bad face on your religion but portray themselves as believers are the ones that should be taken to the perverbial stake to be burnt FIRST. Take them to task for spreading falsehoods, lies, and misrepresenting your religion while acting as a representative of it, and things would get a lot better a lot faster. To paraphrase a parable--get the weeds out of the garden so it can grow.

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Originally Posted by Gotch

I didn't say that you did say that. I said the question you posted came for the same basic camp as that question. I then posted a link that answers your question in minute detail.

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That's not my position though, I think he was a real person, but that's as far as it goes. Buddha and Muhammad were real too, doesn't mean I think they were divine. There's no evidence of that with Jesus or any of them.

The link answered the question you DID ask.

:)