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Rye Cove rule should be repealed
Let's start some discussion on this. Should Clintwood be allowed to play in D1?
The rule was made because of Lee High's AA numbers when they first dropped to A. They've lost a lot of enrollment since dropping, and let's call it like it is, Lee High has not been a factor in Region D football other than allowing Clintwood and Haysi to drop the past few years. If Lee High was a force that didn't allow those two teams to compete in D2 it would be different, but Lee has had no impact on the D2 playoffs whatsoever.
So why should Region D even have this rule?
Clintwood could compete just as well in D2 in this half of the state.
Nobody will ever win another D1 State Championship as long as they allow those gaudy numbers in Region B. If Burton's and Clintwood's teams of the past 5 years can't bring back at least one gold trophy, then it's not going to get done because the talent level in D1 is dropping fast IMO.
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Re: Rye Cove rule should be repealed
I thought the rule was brought about in 03-04, somewhere around there, years before Lee High dropped?
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Re: Rye Cove rule should be repealed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
beamer_ball
I thought the rule was brought about in 03-04, somewhere around there, years before Lee High dropped?
You're probably right, but Lee High coming in is what allowed Clintwood to drop. No offense to Clintwood, but none of the little guys in the region can compete against a football school like Clintwood, and wasn't that the intent of the rule?
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Re: Rye Cove rule should be repealed
How about this?
All the teams in the Lonesome Pine, Black Diamond, and Cumberland should be D1.
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Re: Rye Cove rule should be repealed
More teams than just Lee High have allowed Clintwood, Castlewood, Coeburn, Haysi, etc. to drop over the years. And still yet, as brought up before, Clintwood/Haysi this year are still only midpack enrollment wise in the divisioin in the state.
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Re: Rye Cove rule should be repealed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
joe morgan
Let's start some discussion on this. Should Clintwood be allowed to play in D1?
The rule was made because of Lee High's AA numbers when they first dropped to A. They've lost a lot of enrollment since dropping, and let's call it like it is, Lee High has not been a factor in Region D football other than allowing Clintwood and Haysi to drop the past few years. If Lee High was a force that didn't allow those two teams to compete in D2 it would be different, but Lee has had no impact on the D2 playoffs whatsoever.
So why should Region D even have this rule?
Clintwood could compete just as well in D2 in this half of the state.
Nobody will ever win another D1 State Championship as long as they allow those gaudy numbers in Region B. If Burton's and Clintwood's teams of the past 5 years can't bring back at least one gold trophy, then it's not going to get done because the talent level in D1 is dropping fast IMO.
Beamer is right, the rule was made well before Lee dropped down. And if the area is having trouble competing the way things are now, how would moving larger D1 schools into D2 help the area. As long as the rest of the regions are sporting the numbers they do at D1, it will be tough for our area to compete.
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Re: Rye Cove rule should be repealed
Why do they not allow teams to drop in basketball, but they do in football?
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Re: Rye Cove rule should be repealed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
joe morgan
You're probably right, but Lee High coming in is what allowed Clintwood to drop. No offense to Clintwood, but none of the little guys in the region can compete against a football school like Clintwood, and wasn't that the intent of the rule?
In 07 Clintwood could drop becouse of Lee or VHS
In 09 Lee, VHS and GC all were 2X the size of Clintwood
I will say that the best solution to this issue would be for the state to go to a 5 or 6 A system (equil 6ths)with mixed districts and not alow playing up or down
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Re: Rye Cove rule should be repealed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
royalflush
Why do they not allow teams to drop in basketball, but they do in football?
Only reasons I have heard are #1 the other sports are not as affected by numbers (football teams are 40+ basketball are around 12) I am not sure I agree with that statment 100% the 2nd is that it would screw up there Regional Turnaments and at this point no one has come up with a good solution for that issue
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Re: Rye Cove rule should be repealed
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Originally Posted by
Counts
In 07 Clintwood could drop becouse of Lee or VHS
In 09 Lee, VHS and GC all were 2X the size of Clintwood
I will say that the best solution to this issue would be for the state to go to a 5 or 6 A system (equil 6ths)with mixed districts and not alow playing up or down
Bingo. In a couple years their enrollment will more than likely drop below 300 for the first time in God knows how long.
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Re: Rye Cove rule should be repealed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
joe morgan
You're probably right, but Lee High coming in is what allowed Clintwood to drop. No offense to Clintwood, but none of the little guys in the region can compete against a football school like Clintwood, and wasn't that the intent of the rule?
So since none of the " little guys in the region can compete against a football school like Clintwood" shouldn't Burton go up too? They're the only D1 schools to beat each other in what 4-6 years? And no, it wasn't part of the "rule".
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Re: Rye Cove rule should be repealed
I'm glad Clintwood came down, made the playoffs interesting and fun again. Even though none of us have brought home the gold in the past few years it has been good football to watch.
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Re: Rye Cove rule should be repealed
Clintwood has lost the last 2 by a td. JIB could have had one against Riverheads. I'm not sure how there will NEVER be another D1 team in this area with a chance to win another one. It's not like the D2 schools are burning it up right now either. So I don't know how moving our best D1 shots(s) to D2 is supposed to help. The area as a whole just needs to get better even if they're playing schools with 2x's the enrollment in the last game. It looks to me like Clintwood and JIB have a lot of good talent in the freshmen ranks right now. I think Clintwood has a chance at having the best RB they've had since G. Phillips who's a freshmen. They have what might be the best WR they've ever had playing QB right now and next year they have a QB who'll more than likely be starting who has a chance to be the best QB they've had since the early 90's.
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Re: Rye Cove rule should be repealed
Doesn't Clintwood have nearly twice the enrollment as St. Paul? But there's nowhere for St. Paul to drop. That's why they need a 6A system.
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Re: Rye Cove rule should be repealed
does Clintwood really have that many more kids than Norton? I didn't think so but I could be wrong. I have no problem with Clintwood being D1. Makes the Raiders play harder and better.
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Re: Rye Cove rule should be repealed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
royalflush
Doesn't Clintwood have nearly twice the enrollment as St. Paul? But there's nowhere for St. Paul to drop. That's why they need a 6A system.
People bring that up and yet Clintwood and St. Paul would still be in the class, haha. Think I'd be looking more at situations with teams like Buffalo Gap having way more than that...
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Re: Rye Cove rule should be repealed
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Originally Posted by
starbuck
does Clintwood really have that many more kids than Norton? I didn't think so but I could be wrong. I have no problem with Clintwood being D1. Makes the Raiders play harder and better.
Clintwood 318
J.I. Burton 252
http://www.vhsl.org/files/fb-divisions-2009-10.pdf
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Re: Rye Cove rule should be repealed
True. But if there was a system like that, they could put in a rule that wouldn't let any teams drop.
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Re: Rye Cove rule should be repealed
Don't think there is a perfect solution, and with state enrollment figures its going to be tough. Think of it this way.
If you go with St. Paul's numbers, there are only 6 schools (them included) within 100 students of each other.
If you from Clintwood down, there is 10 schoos (them included) within 100, actually 2 more if you count the bigger division.
If you go in the bigger division, and discount Lee since nobody likes to count them, Powell Valley only has 3 schools within 100 of them (them included). Gate City is even more than 100 larger than them.
Disparity of enrollment is tough to fix, you could probably fix it local, only problem is numbers get more skewed across the state.
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Re: Rye Cove rule should be repealed
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Originally Posted by
R0cketer
Don't think there is a perfect solution, and with state enrollment figures its going to be tough. Think of it this way.
If you go with St. Paul's numbers, there are only 6 schools (them included) within 100 students of each other.
If you from Clintwood down, there is 10 schoos (them included) within 100, actually 2 more if you count the bigger division.
If you go in the bigger division, and discount Lee since nobody likes to count them, Powell Valley only has 3 schools within 100 of them (them included). Gate City is even more than 100 larger than them.
Disparity of enrollment is tough to fix, you could probably fix it local, only problem is numbers get more skewed across the state.
The problems really came about after someone got the notion that all the classifications should have an equal number of teams....then that is compounded by the divisions being divided at the regional level. A definite cut off line for each division statewide fixes both problems. If it means a region ends up with a 3-7 team in the playoffs, so be it...they won't be there long anyways. But, that's the only way to fix the disparity...call it divisions (D1, D2, etc), classifications (A, AA, AAA etc.), whatever you want to call it....but give it a definite cut off point.
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Re: Rye Cove rule should be repealed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sup-rbeast
The problems really came about after someone got the notion that all the classifications should have an equal number of teams....then that is compounded by the divisions being divided at the regional level. A definite cut off line for each division statewide fixes both problems. If it means a region ends up with a 3-7 team in the playoffs, so be it...they won't be there long anyways. But, that's the only way to fix the disparity...call it divisions (D1, D2, etc), classifications (A, AA, AAA etc.), whatever you want to call it....but give it a definite cut off point.
I am fine with equal 3rds but thing we should have a 5A or 6 A system in place (Making it equal 5ths or 6ths) and do away with the divisions at the regional level (which I think everyone agrees is where the plan goes horribly wrong)
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Not saying this is how it is going to happen but taking consolidation into account...
and possible student movement into Norton City Schools....... could it possibly look like this in the future for Region D?
No need for Rye Cove rule in this scenario... and Clintwood is Division 1... barring a ****enson County consolidation.
Lee - 712
Gate City - 681
Virginia High - 680
J.J. Kelly / Pound - 674 (if 50 kids left Wise for Norton)
Powell Valley / Appalachia - 665 (if 100 kids left PV/Appy for Norton)
John Battle - 655
Lebanon - 546
Coeburn / St. Paul - 490 (if 30 kids left Coe. / St. Paul for Castlewood and 32 kids left for Norton)
J.I. Burton - 434 (if nearly 200 kids left Coeburn, St. Paul, Wise, Appy and PV for Norton)
Honaker - 401
Clintwood - 318
Castlewood - 309
Haysi - 283
Thomas Walker - 279
Rye Cove - 255
Twin Springs - 244
Twin Valley - 240
Hurley - 201
Ervinton - 172
Council - 152
and if you have the addition of these four schools from Region IV..... Grundy, Graham, Richlands and Tazewell... it could look like this.
Richlands - 781
Tazewell - 724
Lee - 712
Gate City - 681
Virginia High - 680
J.J. Kelly / Pound - 674 (if 50 kids left Wise for Norton)
Powell Valley / Appalachia - 665 (if 100 kids left PV/Appy for Norton)
John Battle - 655
Lebanon - 546
Graham - 523
Coeburn / St. Paul - 490 (if 30 kids left Coe. / St. Paul for Castlewood and 32 kids left for Norton)
Grundy - 438
J.I. Burton - 434 (if nearly 200 kids left Coeburn, St. Paul, Wise, Appy and PV for Norton)
Honaker - 401
Clintwood - 318
Castlewood - 309
Haysi - 283
Thomas Walker - 279
Rye Cove - 255
Twin Springs - 244
Twin Valley - 240
Hurley - 201
Ervinton - 172
Council - 152
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Re: Not saying this is how it is going to happen but taking consolidation into accoun
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PVVikings2006
and possible student movement into Norton City Schools....... could it possibly look like this in the future for Region D?
No need for Rye Cove rule in this scenario... and Clintwood is Division 1... barring a ****enson County consolidation.
Lee - 712
Gate City - 681
Virginia High - 680
J.J. Kelly / Pound - 674 (if 50 kids left Wise for Norton)
Powell Valley / Appalachia - 665 (if 100 kids left PV/Appy for Norton)
John Battle - 655
Lebanon - 546
Coeburn / St. Paul - 490 (if 30 kids left Coe. / St. Paul for Castlewood and 32 kids left for Norton)
J.I. Burton - 434 (if nearly 200 kids left Coeburn, St. Paul, Wise, Appy and PV for Norton)
Honaker - 401
Clintwood - 318
Castlewood - 309
Haysi - 283
Thomas Walker - 279
Rye Cove - 255
Twin Springs - 244
Twin Valley - 240
Hurley - 201
Ervinton - 172
Council - 152
and if you have the addition of these four schools from Region IV..... Grundy, Graham, Richlands and Tazewell... it could look like this.
Richlands - 781
Tazewell - 724
Lee - 712
Gate City - 681
Virginia High - 680
J.J. Kelly / Pound - 674 (if 50 kids left Wise for Norton)
Powell Valley / Appalachia - 665 (if 100 kids left PV/Appy for Norton)
John Battle - 655
Lebanon - 546
Graham - 523
Coeburn / St. Paul - 490 (if 30 kids left Coe. / St. Paul for Castlewood and 32 kids left for Norton)
Grundy - 438
J.I. Burton - 434 (if nearly 200 kids left Coeburn, St. Paul, Wise, Appy and PV for Norton)
Honaker - 401
Clintwood - 318
Castlewood - 309
Haysi - 283
Thomas Walker - 279
Rye Cove - 255
Twin Springs - 244
Twin Valley - 240
Hurley - 201
Ervinton - 172
Council - 152
Plenty of "folks in the know" from Dikenson County tell me they will be consolidated very soon, before Wise County does.
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It won't happen... but what the heck if ALL of Region D had a consolidation movement?
I know that none of this will never happen... but just interesting to speculate and think on.
Including the drop down of the 4 schools from Group AA?
A ****enson County consolidation?
A Buchanan County consolidation?
A Scott County consolidation?
Richlands - 781 - Black Diamond
Clintwood/Haysi/Ervinton - 773 - Lonesome Pine
Tazewell - 724 - Black Diamond
Lee - 712 - Clinch Mountain
Gate City - 681 - Clinch Mountain
Virginia High - 680 - Clinch Mountain
J.J. Kelly / Pound - 674 (if 50 kids left Wise for Norton) - Lonesome Pine
Powell Valley / Appalachia - 665 (if 100 kids left PV/Appy for Norton) - Lonesome Pine
John Battle - 655 - Clinch Mountain
Grundy/Council - 590 - Black Diamond
Lebanon - 546 - Clinch Mountain
Graham - 523 - Black Diamond
Coeburn / St. Paul - 490 (if 30 kids left Coe. / St. Paul for Castlewood and 32 kids left for Norton) - Lonesome Pine
Twin Springs/Rye Cove - 499 - Cumberland
J.I. Burton - 434 (if nearly 200 kids left Coeburn, St. Paul, Wise, Appy and PV for Norton) - Lonesome Pine
Hurley/Twin Valley - 401 - Black Diamond
Honaker - 401 - Clinch Mountain
Castlewood - 309 - Cumberland
Thomas Walker - 279 - Cumberland
Largest to Smallest schools by enrollment
Black Diamond - (Enrollment Distribution - 781 to 401) Difference of 380
Richlands
Tazewell
Grundy/Council
Graham
Hurley/Twin Valley
Clinch Mountain - (Enrollment Distribution - 681 to 401) Difference of 280
Gate City
Virginia High
John Battle
Lebanon
Honaker
Lonesome Pine - (Enrollment Distribution - 773 to 434) Difference of 339
Clintwood/Haysi/Ervinton
JJ Kelly/Pound
Appalachia/Powell Valley
Coeburn/St. Paul
JI Burton
Cumberland (Enrollment Distribution - 712 - 279) Difference of 433
Lee
Twin Springs/Rye Cove
Castlewood
Thomas Walker
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Re: Rye Cove rule should be repealed
The "Rye Cove" rule was supposedly designed to give smaller schools an opportunity to compete at a lower division level rather than competing against the larger schools in the Region. But, the rule has created the exact type of situation it was supposed to alleviate.
With Clintwood and Haysi dropping down to Div I, it allows them to compete against much smaller schools and gain a competitive advantage (Clintwood has about 3 x the enrollment of St. Paul from the enrollment figures on the VHSL website). So, where do the smallest of the schools (Appalachia, Pound, St Paul, etc) drop to in order to gain a competitive advantage? Nowhere! They have no choice.
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Re: Rye Cove rule should be repealed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SilveradoZ71
where do (Appalachia, Pound, St Paul, etc) drop to in order to gain a competitive advantage? Nowhere! They have no choice.
I think they won't have to worry about that much longer
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Re: Rye Cove rule should be repealed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SilveradoZ71
The "Rye Cove" rule was supposedly designed to give smaller schools an opportunity to compete at a lower division level rather than competing against the larger schools in the Region. But, the rule has created the exact type of situation it was supposed to alleviate.
That''s because you misunderstand the rule.
The "Rye Cove" rule WAS designed to give smaller schools an opportunity to compete at a lower division level rather than competing against the larger schools in the STATE... not Region.
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Re: Rye Cove rule should be repealed
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Originally Posted by
VHSLhelper
That''s because you misunderstand the rule.
The "Rye Cove" rule WAS designed to give smaller schools an opportunity to compete at a lower division level rather than competing against the larger schools in the STATE... not Region.
So that rule isn't based on regional enrollment, correct? I didn't think so. It needs about 5 or 6 hard number cut off points.:D
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Re: Rye Cove rule should be repealed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
simple man
So that rule isn't based on regional enrollment, correct? I didn't think so. It needs about 5 or 6 hard number cut off points.:D
The only reason it is a regional thing is becouse Region B had so few Div 1 teams and the VHSL took the easy fix insted of revamping there playoff system
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Re: Not saying this is how it is going to happen but taking consolidation into accoun
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sportsman*
Plenty of "folks in the know" from Dikenson County tell me they will be consolidated very soon, before Wise County does.
I have no frigging clue what will happen in DC.....Late last year and early this year the word was Ervinton would be closed and split between Clintwood and Haysi by 2011 then there is the Idea that a new school is being looked at on caney Ridge near the 4-way (Not bad for Clintwood and Ervinton but a death march for haysi) the old idea of the school being in Clinchco has been scraped (Floodplain?).......I get the feeling that DC is waiting for Wise to make there final plans before makeing a move of there own (not sure why)
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Re: Rye Cove rule should be repealed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
VHSLhelper
That''s because you misunderstand the rule.
The "Rye Cove" rule WAS designed to give smaller schools an opportunity to compete at a lower division level rather than competing against the larger schools in the STATE... not Region.
No it was actually designed to allow smaller school, RC in this case, to compete in the Region. They were not thinking about competing in state competition.
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Re: Rye Cove rule should be repealed
Unless a team can be competitive in their Region, it really doesn't matter how their enrollment compares with the rest of the state.
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Re: Rye Cove rule should be repealed
It would seem to me it would be based on regional play because if it was designed to be implemented at the state level, they would take the largest single A school in the state and any school that had half of that school's enrollment would be able to play in Division 1...cuz there are a few single A schools in the state larger than Lee.
