OK its cold and snowing here..... Time to start something. :D
Does anyone think a VOT could make the grade to be THX certified?
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OK its cold and snowing here..... Time to start something. :D
Does anyone think a VOT could make the grade to be THX certified?
Find THX Approved equipment for
http://www.thx.com/library/pdf/ApprovedEquipList.pdf
St?phane
I could be wrong but I believe manufacturers pay to have their equipment certified to be THX compliant. Much like a UL listing.
I dont think I ever saw any Altec equipment THX approved. Possibly because Altec went under before THX was introduced or they didnt care to get certified.
This does not mean they couldnt meet the specs. Thats what I was getting at. :D
THE ALTEC A 10 WAS THX CERTIFIED IN THE 80's.
.................................................. ....
THX 2000 APPROVED LIST
Six Channel 3 Way System
Apogee MPTs-1
Room Limits : Max Volume:15,000 cu ft(425 cum)
Compact Screen System
Electro-Voice TS992-LX JBL 3678
Room Limits :
Max Volume:45,000 cu ft(1275 cum) Max Distance Screen to Farthest Seat: 40 ft.(12.2 m)
Screen System
Altec A10/MR945A
CinemAcoustics CA-S5330
EAW CB-2591
Electro-Voice TS550D-LX
Electro-Voice TS9040D-LX
JBL 4675B-8LF JBL 4675C-8LF
KCS S-3001 Wassman WSS 953
Subwoofers
Altec 8184
BGW 1100 BGW 2200
Cerwin Vega SW18
CinemAcoustics CA-S3118
EAW SB-284C
Electro-Voice TL880D
Electro-Voice TL440<
Electro-Voice TL3512
JBL 4645B
JBL 4688E
KCS C-218A
KX-4160
Smart DS574
Surround Speakers
Altec A16-8A
Boston Acoustics A70T
CinemAcoustics CA-S1210
EAW CR72
Electro-Voice FR10-2B
Electro-Voice FR12-2B
Electro-Voice FR 200B
Electro-Voice TS8-2
Frazier F2350
Gradient SR-4
JBL 8330
JBL 8340
KCS SR-12
KCS SR-15 Krix
KX-1800
Krix KSX-2
Theatre Test Equipment
R2 Acoustical Measurement System
POWER AMP
AB International 600LX
AB International 900A
AB International 1100A
AB International 1590B
AB International 1650
Altec 9442A
Altec 9444B
Altec 9446A
Amcron MA-601TX
Amcron MA-1201TX
Amcron MA-2401TX
Amcron MT-1201
Amcron MT-601
ARX SS1200T
Ashly FET-2000M
Australian Monitor K7
BGW 750G
BGW 7500T
BGW GTB
BGW Millenium 2
BGW Millenium 3
BGW PS/2
BGW PS/3
BGW PS/4
Bryston 4B
Carver PM 600
C-Audio RA 2000/tx
CinemAcoustics CA-A540
CinemAcoustics CA-A800
CinemAcoustics CS-400
CinemAcoustics CA-800
CinemAcoustics C600
CinemAcoustics C601
CinemAcoustics C1201
CinemAcoustics C2401
Crest Audio 1501A
Crest Audio FA 901TX
Crest Audio FA 1201 TX
Crest Audio LA 901 TX
Crest Audio LA 1201 TX
Crown/Amcron 460CSL
Crown/Amcron 800CSL
Crown/Amcron 1400CSL
Crown/Amcron CT-400
Crown/Amcron CT-800
Crown/Amcron PS400
Crown MA-600TX
Crown MA-1200TX
Crown MA-2400TX
Crown MA-5000TX
Crown MT-1200
Crown MT-600
Crown Reference 1
Dynacord PAA 56TX
A16-8A is listed for surround application. What is this system?
Cheers, Marshall.
I don't remember seeing any Altec gear on the THX lists for mains. Looks like there was some, but I don't think I saw it.
Funny thing is - years ago I applied for the job of THX certification manager. Up at the ranch. Didn't get it, even tho I knew the THX technical director. Sometimes it isn't just who you know.... ;)
1989: The A10 Voice Of The Theater speaker system is THX? approved.
Altec Lansing Professional Audio - About Us
..........
On the topic of THX, when I was in the Navy I brought up a subject on sound & speakers, etc...most guys were just into htib's or blose compact systems and raved about them after they heard a crappy demo at the px/nex. I would try and enlighten them on other avenues of sound equipment appreciation. Mostly fell on deaf ears....lol
One of the guys that worked under me had said he took some classes at the University of Chicago under Thomas Hollman (sp?)......Had some pretty interesting conversations, but got the gist that the guy took the classes as a elective and did not pay too much attention or retain a whole lot....
-chris
In the 1989 pro catalog you'll find a model A12-8A which is a 2 way bass reflex ported box with a 12 inch woofer and the bent horn as used in model 15 and 70's vintage A6.Quote:
Originally Posted by mah
I'd wager that the A16-8A is an upscaled version using a 15 or 16 inch woofer(3156 maybe). Please understand this is purely a guess on my part, but i feel it has some credence.
Friend of mine took several classes with Dr Bose at MIT. We had several interesting conversations also...More like arguments.Quote:
One of the guys that worked under me had said he took some classes at the University of Chicago under Thomas Hollman (sp?)......Had some pretty interesting conversations, but got the gist that the guy took the classes as a elective and did not pay too much attention or retain a whole lot....
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeInNH
I would have loved to had heard those!! lol!!
also which brings up a another bose related subject. I was laid off last Feb from a large computer chip maker. Bose had heard the word from the local area people and asked me if I would consider employment with them. I told them respectfully "I think it would be unethical for me to do so, based on your lack engineering principles, but are you guys hiring in advertising?".
Needless to say, I did not get the job I did NOT apply for..poor me.
-chris
Thomlinson Holman doesn't really know anything about how loudspeakers work, how room acoustics interact with loudspeaker propagation, directivity, frequency response, phasing, etc., how the human mind perceives sound, and on and on I could go.
I've listened to him talk a few times. I wasn't impressed.
Jim Dickinson, as I recall, had several conversations with him - TH had NO idea what he was talking about, according to Jim.
TH's biggest problem with Altec, if memory serves, was that he didn't understand the trade-off's between efficiency and excellent frequency response and high SPL's and thermal breakdown (aka driver failure). He seemed intent on having systems that were LOUD at the expense of everything else.
When I presented my paper at the AES, "Vintage Professional Loudspeakers: Their Care, Renovation, and Use" in New York, I mentioned that there is nothing that compares to the ability of a properly designed fully horn-loaded system (like the A-1's, A-2's, and A-4's) to draw the listener INTO the dialogue and the "action" in a motion picture without causing ear bleed at the same time. further. I mentioned that direct-radiator systems do NOT have the ability to respond quickly to the dynamic changes in music like bass horns can, so they try to compensate by overwhelming the listeners with large amounts of (usually distorted) sound.
I said a lot of other things, but suffice to say the THX people weren't listening...
Oh, and, yes - the manufacturers DO have to pay THX for certification. Because TH was in the back pocket of JBL, it was next to impossible for Altec to even get them to take a look at the VOTT systems, much less test them honestly.
WhiteBronco here on our forum can tell you a lot more, but, as I recall, the politics involved was unbelievable - the folks at THX just WERE NOT going to approve Altec speakers, no matter what, and on the rare occasions when the DID, the did so with prejudice.
Oh - and the folks at E-V, who owned Altec at the time, didn't help matters, either, when it came to Altec in the theatres....
AMD?? Only reason I ask is because I knew a couple people who got laid off from them around the same time frame.Quote:
I was laid off last Feb from a large computer chip maker.
Actually some of Bose engineering is pretty interesting. Their noise suppression head-phones...They're trying to adapt the same technology to cars muffler systems. This is mainly their industrial division.Quote:
Bose had heard the word from the local area people and asked me if I would consider employment with them. I told them respectfully "I think it would be unethical for me to do so, based on your lack engineering principles, but are you guys hiring in advertising?".
I've NEVER been impressed with their audio....except some of the custom design systems for cars/trucks. Some of those were exceptional.
Dr Bose is a brilliant man. He teaches engineering and Computer science at MIT. His indepth knowledge in these fields is mind boggling.
Reminds me of the old saying -
"No high's? No Low's? - It must be BOSE!"
I never understood their philosophy behind their 901's - after all, you can't hear a speaker you can't SEE - all you heard was reflections...
About 30 years ago a friend of mine had a pair of 901's. He had them set up in his den. His setup was fantastic...It was one of the best setups I ever heard....Quote:
I never understood their philosophy behind their 901's - after all, you can't hear a speaker you can't SEE - all you heard was reflections...
THEN....he moved the speakers to his living room. He called me up all frantic because the sound was gone...."and it was". Just to make sure he didn't destroy something in the move we moved everything back to the den...it sounded great again. The dimensions and the furniture he had in the den was well suited for the 901's. The living room wasn't. I never seen a speaker that was so room dependent in my life. The sound difference between the two rooms was like listening to a pair of VOTT's in one room...and a pair of Realistic car speakers in the next....AND I'M NOT SAYING THE 901'S SOUNDED ANYWHERE NEAR AS GOOD AS THE VOTT'S...Just using them as an example of sound difference.
I never understood why George Lucas has commented that during the late 1970's he thought that theatre sound was terrible while "Star Wars" was in it's run across america during 1977. I saw "Star Wars" here in Ohio at the old Colony Theatre out in Shaker Heights and the sound was phenomenal. It was presented in what was called back then: 70mm Dolby. I remember Altec speakers arrayed through-out the theatre along the side walls and back. Model 620 cabinets with 604-8G's if memorey serves me. I do not know what was behind the screen but I'd sure bet it was a VOTT pair or array of some sort.
Now, this was YEARS before "THX" and yet to this day it was the best cinema sound experience I ever had! I went back several times (believe it or not) just to experience the sound again & again.
True, that many or most theatres ran "Star Wars" in a standard print on a mono sound-track with a single VOTT behind the screen.....but even that average set-up sounded quite good......great I should say....given what it was. So, THAT may be what Lucas was referring to. I still say that Lucas & company attempted to fix what was never broken in the first place.
Long live ALTEC!......in our hearts & minds!!
Russ
Todd, thanks for the info about the JBL-THX thing. It did seem that everything THX was JBL in the beginning. Wasn't EV the company on the list after that? I think I remember reading a press release about that.
I know a lot of folks rant against THX, but I've heard some darn fine THX houses. I'm sure it was JBL behind the screen. Even the local multiplex where I saw Avatar sounded very nice. Clean, smooth vocals, no boomy bass, good dynamics. One nice thing is that they were not overdriving the system, as is so often the case these days. A pleasant surprise.
The ONLY thing I ever saw that was great about Bose was their marketing.
They can sell whats basically a transistor radio with 5 2" speakers, call it surround sound and sell it for $1800.00 and convince most people on paper its the best sounding system in the world. Gotta hand it to them.
I do not know why we were almost always turned down, I know I was in the middle of it a couple of times. A rumor going around says that what's-his-name that started THX had originally approached Altec with the concept and had been somehow snubbed. He then knocked on JBL's door and cut a deal. THX is a bit of a racket. It costs the theatre owner big bucks to install a system and get it approved. Then it costs more bucks to get the system certified each year. I knew of one theatre in Texas that had THX on one screen and Altec on the other. The engineer told me he much preferred the Altec sound. Most theatre owners use speakers from the THX list and never get certified.
The THX folks turned down the 288/299 driver because it could not be forced to reproduce 20kHz. The A10 was passed when we used a re-labeled EV driver (DH2012?) and the THX boys could eq the snot out of it to get 20kHz.
It is very possible that a system loaded with a 909 driver could get approval, someone would simply need to pay for it . . .
Exactly !!! I think it all had to do with putting money in Mr. Lucas's pocket.At the time Altec had a lock on the theaters with the Vott's so they didn't need Mr.Lucas and Jbl was trying to break that lock so that's where that deal came from it was around the same time I think that George Lucas formed his special effects company.Industrial,Light,and Magic what do you need to go with special effects ie;Sound Effects or Sound.If Altec didn't have the money problems they did THX would of been another passing fad like Sensurround after all Altec still sounded better to these ears.Like you said all these theaters pay for this system and never get certified,in this economy all these theater owners would have put them out to the curb and paid a onetime fee to Altec for the lattest Vott,follow the money it leads to Lucasfilms Ltd.It had more to do with a conflict with Altec than actual sound quality :rolleyes:
I know a couple of theaters with John Allen's HPS sound systems and they sound fantastic. The screen speakers are fully horn loaded. The Tivoli in Downers Grove has an HPS rig.
I've heard THX systems sounding good and sounding bad; usually sounding bad when pushed too hard and going into distortion. I used to go to a Keresotes chain theater in the burbs here that had an excellent sounding EV THX system and that also did excellent projection. Nice theater.
Remember that there is more to the THX certification than just the speakers and amps.
The rooms also had to meet certain specs to be certified - including crosstalk to adjacent screens.
The yearly certification was a revenue scheme, for sure. But it was also to assure that the cinemas keep the systems in alignment. Having worked in a number of cinemas, I can tell that most just don't care. As long as it works and there aren't too many complaints, that's all that matters.
So having a program, no matter who runs it, to keep the cinemas in top trim is a good idea in my book. THX tries to market the idea, that's all.
I've heard cone rattles before...... at least that's what it sounded like to me. I've often wondered how many times a cheap car subwoofer has been slapped in place of a blown theatre woofer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Panomaniac
Next time, I go to the theatre I'm taking a flash light. Last time I went, I peeked behind the screen, but it was so dark, I couldn't see enough detail to make out what the big box was...... I could barely tell it was a box. If I had to guess, I'd wager I was looking at JBL horns (4560 and 4550 were used in theaters right?) becasue of the age of the theatre......80s.
Pretty interesting thread people! Thanks.
The THX certificaiton reminds me of the ISO-9000 or the SixSigma certification. All it is...is a way for a group of people to make money...nothing more. No one tries to ge the ISO-9000 certification anymore....same with six sigma. And it was basically worthless. All it said was you need to follow these standards to be certified...Well there were plenty of other standards that was as good or better. But at it's peak..many companies were loosing business because they weren't certified. I'm very very skeptical of these certifications. It's ALL marketing and has NOTHING to do with engineering.
I don't remember if anyone has said it, but most of the folks who buy Bose have never heard anything other than a clock/radio or tv or some other low performance device. Marketing like "as seen on tv" and the like is the strength of the Bose brand. I also remember well Bose selling a line of direct radiator speakers to dealers at a huge level of markup.
Yes, I always thought it was a joke, but if you're in the automotive business you do need to be ISO certified. ISO-whatever replaced QS9000/9001. Just over a year ago, I was working for a tier-1 supplier and it was still a big deal...... although we were having some bigger issues at the time, so maybe it did go away?Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeInNH
Say you're going to do it wrong, do it wrong, and document that you did it wrong, and you'll be golden :D
Yes as long as it was documented. Doesn't matter if it's WRONG...Just as long as it was documented. Most software companies have left the ISO-9000 certification. It's too expensive and really means NOTHING. And I've gone through the ISO-9000 certification twice with different companies. The process was completely different for each company.Quote:
Say your going to do it wrong, do it wrong, and document that you did it wrong, and you'll be golden
For most of the'90s I was an ISO 9000 certification auditor. The biggest problem seemed to be consultants who thought they were on a gravy train, implementing overblown and overly complex management systems.
ISO - International Standards Organization.
I helped write ISO 9919_2005 FWIW...:confused:
Analog,
Draft after draft after draft after............. ;).
Cheers, Marshall.
Heh Marshall, don't remind me. I think it took over 5 years.....:oQuote:
Originally Posted by mah
I'm not a general overall BOSE fan, but a few of their early products are NOT junk. For example.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Nipper
http://www.dcx2496.fr/Bose_1801_mods...1801topfrt.jpg
http://www.dcx2496.fr/Bose_1801_mods...49870820_4.jpg
http://www.dcx2496.fr/Bose_1801_mods..._fitted_sm.jpg
http://www.dcx2496.fr/Bose_1801_mods/images/boards2.jpg
I like this amp so much I own two of them. 82lbs, 41lbs of which is JUST the transformer. Even in stock form, I have talked to a fellow who sold these in the day, and they used to input a 60Hz signal into them, hook the output up to a hand drill, and drill holes through two by fours.
Here's the premier mod page from a fellow named Thierry in France....
Bose 1801 modifications
Most BOSE stuff is much less than advertised, but don't lump it all in the circle file....
That's quite a beast! Never saw it before.
Speaking of "good Bose" back in 1990 I toured with Bose Pro powered speakers. The first powered pro rig I had seen. Just 2 speakers. The were called Acoustimass (before they stuck that name on consumer products). Looked like overgrown 802s, but had a 12" woofer inside and of course the amp. Sure didn't sound like an 802!
I really, really liked them. They were fun to mix on and even my CD collection sounded great. Never used them in a domestic setting, but in a small theater or big club they were great. Tried to find them in the U.S. but never could. I was surprised at how good they were, but how unknown.
Bose stole the "Acousta-" idea from Altec. We used to call theirs "AcoustiBlast"....
:eek: See!!! This is part of the problem. Who in hell runs their drill off their amp?? I always plug mine into a wall outlet. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by analog addict
They were creating amps that could run drills while others were concentrating on good sound.
Seems like running a drill with your amp would void the warranty. :D
I had a bunch of the pro versions of the Bose amps. Worked well.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l2...y/IMG_7392.jpg
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l2...y/IMG_7391.jpg
HF was rolled off a bit.
My back still hurts this was the 70's
I beleive McIntosh used to do something similar. A lot of the heavy duty amps were used in labs for motor control and vibratory sources. I was looking at the Altec 260A brochure the other day, and it mentions motor control.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nipper
I wonder if we could go the opposite direction...... use a variable frequency drive (VFD) as an amp?
260s and 1570s both saw use as motor drives.
VFDs provide no gain, and only output a single frequency at any given instant.
Hmm, I didn't think about the no gain part........ kind of makes the whole endeavor pointless :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by bfish