Upgrading Valencias

I own a pair of mint Model 19's and a pair of Valencias as well as a pair of Heathkit AS-101's (Valencia drivers with a Heathkit crossover and cabinet). The Model 19's are my newest purchase (fall 2009) and they are the best sounding speakers I have ever heard--bar none. My Valencias and AS 101's sound almost as good with equalization from my Alesis EQ, but the Model 19's sound amazing with minimal EQ. I'm seriously considering upgrading my Valencias (and possibly the 101's as well) by swapping out the 806's with GPA 902's but not sure if the stock 800 hz Valencia crossover will work?? I went to the Altec pro site and looked up the specs for the 806 (stock Valencia) h.f. driver. It shows the pressure/sensitivity (i.e. efficiency) is 109.5 db at one watt input. The pressure/sensitivity for the 902 is only 104 db (105.7 on the GPA website) at one watt input which makes me think that the 902 wouldn't be "loud" enough to replace an 806 using the stock Valencia crossover--I'm guessing I would need a model 19 crossover to compensate for the difference in high frequency driver efficiency if I swap out two 806's for two 902's? Am I right in assuming that at the same power level the 806 will be "louder" than a 902 or are they comparable efficiency and it's just that they were measured differently which caused the difference between 109.5 db and 105.7 db?? Besides the efficiency factor, another factor to consider is that I've heard that the 902's don't sound good with a 500hz crossover point--would they be fine with an 800hz crossover point (stock Valencia) or do I need the 1200 hz crossover point that a Model 19 crossover provides? Also, in the same vein, the Model 19's use 416-8B woofers. The AS 101's use 416-8A woofers. Are they going to be comparable or do I disqualify the Model 19 crossover for a Valencia/AS-101 upgrade because it was designed for 416-8B's and not for 416-8A's?? And lastly, the Altec 902 is rated at 104 db with one watt input, the GPA 902 is rated at 105.7 db at one watt input. Again, do I disqualify the model 19 crossover for this upgrade because it's specifically designed for use with the Altec 902, or are the Altec 902 and the GPA 902 comparable and just measured differently (one with current measuring technology and one with older measuring technology?)??? It would be nice if I could just use the stock Valencia (and AS 101) crossover (800hz) but I don't want what's easy (and less expensive), if I do this I want to do it right..... It just occurred to me that since the cabinets are different for a Valencia than a Model 19, does that disqualify the Model 19 crossover as a candidate? Are there enough questions posed in this post??? ;)

You can't really compare apples and oranges...always read the test conditions...the 806 is measured at more mid band, which means likely more efficient.

Also, bear in mind 3 db is generally considered the lowest difference most can hear, and adding all that up, I don't think it will be a severe problem.

In all honesty, my opinion is the xover in the Valencia is the weakest part...I would upgrade the crossover first, then consider other upgrades as needed.

The model 19 type crossover with the HF EQ was a great improvement.

Your mileage may vary.

I'm doing the same thing with a set of 846As, I'll be using a rebuilt 416-8A, rebuilt 802-8A and A N 801-8A crossover.

I'd suggest you do the CD upgrade and start with your Valencia crossover. I think you're going to need the high fequency equalization that the Model 19 crossover adds but the improvement in FR from CD upgrade is going to be large.
Have you looked into getting an active crossover?

Westend --at the risk of sounding (more) ignorant--what is a CD upgrade--not sure what the abbreviation CD stands for in this case? Also, I'm not interested in using an active crossover--I don't have the know-how or measuring equipment to implement it with confidence and I'd rather use something that already has all the necessary adjustments made for me.

Old Guy--thanks for the detailed response. I agree the Valencia crossover leaves much to be desired, I suppose it makes no sense to shell out over $400 for two GPA 902 drivers (or used Altec 802 or 902 drivers) and subject them to the old Valencia crossover. The Heathkit AS-101 crossover that I have in my Heathkit AS 101's, however, is a better crossover than the Valencia--not to mention that with the help of some of you guys on this forum (and Zilch from another forum), I recapped my Heathkit crossovers last year and they sound better than ever. Do you or does anyone out there think that the Heathkit AS-101 crossover (800 hz) would work well with the GPA 902 drivers and 416-8A woofers?

My other option is to wait until GPA offers a Model 19 crossover -- I have a feeling that it's in the works (see quote below). If they do offer a Model 19 crossover I would buy four of them and four 902 drivers and upgrade both my Valencias and my Heathkit AS 101's. I'll bet there's lots of others out there that would be interested in doing this upgrade if they could buy GPA Model 19 crossovers--and many people that would love to build "new" Model 19's with the GPA 902 and 416-8c if they could buy a GPA Model 19 crossover. My Valencias are the 16 ohm version--I know GPA offers both an 8 ohm version and a 16 ohm version of the 902 driver. I'm hoping if they offer a model 19 crossover for this type of upgrade that they will offer both an 8 ohm version to go with the 8 ohm 902 that they sell (I'd use these for my AS-101's), and a 16 ohm version of the Model 19 crossover to go with the 16 ohm 902 that they sell (for my Valencias). My Valencias and AS 101's sound great the way they are now--so I'm in no major hurry and I'm not even considering scouring the internet for a used pair of Model 19 crossovers--I've heard horror stories about people "parting out" Model 19 crossovers because they've been "pushed" (partially fried) with too much power....
Also, I've heard that the "new" Iconic Model 19 crossovers are really expensive--I'd rather wait for the GPA version if it is in the works (especially since I've done business with GPA before and was very impressed by them)--does anyone (Todd maybe?) know if GPA is going to offer Model 19 crossovers?

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Originally Posted by Todd W. White

Iconic has their own methods of utilizing those parts, and builds their version of the Model 19 crossover themselves, by hand, on a per-order basis. Reports are that they work well, but they are expensive. As far as I know, Iconic has slowed down their marketing efforts, while GPA has and is increasing it's marketing efforts, and has and is introducing new products, crossovers, and complete systems.

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Wouldn't you also have to use the eq/att. out of a model 19, if you used a model 19 crossover. I don't think the 416 and 902 would mesh very well without it. And from what i have seen most valencias are crossed at 800 hz., whereas the 19 is crossed at 1200 hz. I wonder how the 416 is gonna play crossed at 1200 with that 19 crossover, in that small of a cabinet.

[QUOTE=voice of the theater;1814369]
so I'm in no major hurry and I'm not even considering scouring the internet for a used pair of Model 19 crossovers--I've heard horror stories about people "parting out" Model 19 crossovers because they've been "pushed" (partially fried) with too much power....
QUOTE]

You shouldn't rule it out completely I bought 2 pairs and they were fine.Model 19 Xo's should have their caps-resistors replaced by now anyway.Replace with Solens check the L-pads for cleaning and your good to go also point to point solder of the grounds and you could have a Great set of Xo's.Why wait if you need them you need them.:2thumbsup:

Another option for an updated crossover, is the eminence crossovers sold by parts express. I tried them in my votts and they work and sound great.

Theebadone raises an excellent point about the difference in cabinet size between the Valencia and the Model 19....

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Originally Posted by theebadone

Wouldn't you also have to use the eq/att. out of a model 19, if you used a model 19 crossover. I don't think the 416 and 902 would mesh very well without it. And from what i have seen most valencias are crossed at 800 hz., whereas the 19 is crossed at 1200 hz. I wonder how the 416 is gonna play crossed at 1200 with that 19 crossover, in that small of a cabinet.

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I'm starting to wonder if I should leave well enough alone. Right now, my Valencias and AS-101's sound great--they just need to be EQ'd differently than my Model 19's which is really not a big deal--they sound VERY close to the 19's with the "right" EQ (I mainly have to add some "extra" high end around 14khz and above with the Valencias and 101's that the Model 19's don't need). I'm now wondering if I buy 902's and model 19 crossovers (crossovers which were designed with a larger cabinet in mind) for the Valencias and 101's am I going to lose out on my frequency response from 1200 hz down (as far down as they go) because of the reduced cabinet size compared to the cabinet that the model 19 crossovers were designed/EQ'd for? I certainly don't want a midrange "gap" around 1200 hz or anywhere in the lower range for that matter just because I'm using a Model 19 crossover in a considerably smaller cabinet than it was designed/EQ'd for. On the other hand, if I buy 902 drivers and use the stock Valencia and AS-101 crossover (800hz), will I be missing out on a lot of the high end without the high frequency EQ that the model 19 crossover provides (which Old Guy and West End referred to)? I'm starting to worry that if I buy 902's I'll be "screwing up" two great pairs of speakers (that are currently "stock" and now have a relatively flat response in their primary response range) no matter which stock crossover I use (stock model 19 crossover or stock Valencia/AS 101 crossover). Call me crazy but I don't really want to spend that kind of money to "screw up" my speakers! Any ideas out there--is it really a good idea to "upgrade" these speakers with 902's using either stock 19 crossovers or stock valencia/AS 101 crossovers? If I need to custom build crossovers or use active crossovers I think I'm going to keep everything the way it is now. Any advice is greatly appreciated.....

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Originally Posted by theebadone

I wonder how the 416 is gonna play crossed at 1200 with that 19 crossover, in that small of a cabinet.

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A smaller cabinet is going to affect LF, not likely to have much effect 800-1200Hz.

I wouldn't be worried about that at all.

Later Altec crossovers will flatten the HF and help pull out some mid.
Of course an EQ could just be added after the existing crossover. Haven't done much playing with that sort of thing.

The original Altec designs are pretty good. They can be improved...but the cost may be just not worth it. You reach a point of diminishing returns....a ten percent improvement costs way more than ten percent more...

Thanks for the info. I agree, sometimes the mods. aren't worth it. By the time I finish these 846As, it would of been cheaper to buy a nice set of 846Bs on the bay. I'm retired, so i got to learn a little, and the finished product turned out pretty good. I found the cabinets empty, except for the original crossovers, which were opened up and tampered with. I installed rebuilt 416As, rebuilt 802-8As hooked to 811B horns, and a set of N 801-8A crossovers. The grills were trashed, so I made a set from 1/4 inch tempered masonite, covered with black burlap, they look presentable, and sound pretty good. plenty of bass and detailed highs. The 802s are a little longer than the original 806s by about a half inch, so a little modding is also necessary to get them to fit. Overall i'm pleased with the results, and i had fun playing, and learning. I would post pics, but it will not let me. :)

There is a gentleman over at Lansing Heritage by the name of Rick (Saeman) who took over for Zilch on the Zilch Cloth Emporium that has original JBL grille cloth Black & Blue I have aquired 2yds of black for my Altec 612C's and it is Identical to the brown cloth that came on my 19's a diamond pattern only differance is the diamond is alittle smaller tighter weave.I think Altec and JBL used the same cloth manufacturer.You may want to try some I think you would be much happier than with Burlap.$15 a yard I can post a pic if you would like a lookie.And use a Weldwood Contact Cement (Original) the smelly stuff for applying it to the grille frame. :)

Also try Photobucket or Flickr I think Flickr is easier though http://photobucket.com/ or http://www.flickr.com/ and if you use these sites then you just have to post a link something you may want to try.

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Originally Posted by theebadone

I would post pics, but it will not let me. :)

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In your profile you can creat a photo album. Then after you upload photos into your album, you can click on the picture then copy the bb code at the bottom of the photo to your post.

Thanks again for the info. I also apologize to the o.p. im not trying to hijack your thread. I understand that the 902s and 802s are about the best small format drivers for home use. New components get a little expensive to use for an upgrade. I think the valencias would definitely benefit from the h.f driver upgrade, but by how much, it's not a huge improvement. I don't think the improvement is worth the cost, unless you had an extra set laying around unused. Then there's the mods you have to do to the rear of cabinets to get them to fit. If i had a set of perfect cabinets, i would think twice before i altered them. Altec had it pretty much right, from the factory. I would love to see those grills too, thanks. :)

Here are a couple pics if i did it right.

Nope. :(

GM

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Originally Posted by theebadone

.........and a set of N 801-8A crossovers. The grills were trashed, so I made a set from 1/4 inch tempered masonite, covered with black burlap, they look presentable, and sound pretty good.

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Hmm, the 846 XOs are considerably different from the N801-8A's 'textbook' 2nd order Butterworth designs, so a bit surprised you don't find the mids 'hump' this causes objectionable. Then again, I imagine burlap is dense enough to make an audible difference, allowing less HF shelving. FWIW, the 801s are old enough to need new (and better) caps by now.

GM

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Originally Posted by GM

Hmm, the 846 XOs are considerably different from the N801-8A's 'textbook' 2nd order Butterworth designs, so a bit surprised you don't find the mids 'hump' this causes objectionable. Then again, I imagine burlap is dense enough to make an audible difference, allowing less HF shelving. FWIW, the 801s are old enough to need new (and better) caps by now.

GM

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New caps are next on the list. I honestly don't hear any kind of noticable hump in the mids, but then, ask me again after i recap the crossovers, and switch to the JBL speaker cloth. I might be installing an eq too. Ahh more fun, lol Sorry about the pics, i'm computer illiterate. I may have to ask my daughter to show me, now i really feel old.

Just have someone remove the grill while listening to a female singer. If she 'jumps' closer to you than the band and/or she's already much closer to you than the band, then you have the 'hump' and if she sounds 'chesty' compared to say on a TV show, then it's bad enough to be the often complained about, but mostly misunderstood, horn 'honk' which non or improperly EQ'd sectoral horns are notorious for.

Not sure what you did wrong, but in 'reply' mode I see this action noted, so maybe you just copy/pasted an incomplete link/whatever and when I try to complete it I get a their blank photo with its 'deleted or moved' message and searching photobucket using 'theebadone' returns only a young woman's photo:

Already pinged:

• http://i1018.photobucket.com/albums/af303/theebado...

GM

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Originally Posted by GM

Then again, I imagine burlap is dense enough to make an audible difference, allowing less HF shelving. GM

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That's what I was thinking they use acoustic fabric for a reason, cause if too thick it will prevent sound from coming through, Burlap I have seen is quite thick a not very good for grille material. I'll post a pic later Have to run

Yeah, expanded double knit is my fave since it's ~acoustically transparent if stretched tight enough and available in myriad colors to blend/whatever to the decor and in a pinch can be dyed with paint if you have a spray system.

Where durability is required, pet resistant window/door screen material works well, though the top end needs to be a little 'bright' as it rolls off the highs somewhat and AFAIK it's only available in black and gray.

GM

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Originally Posted by GM

if she sounds 'chesty' compared to say on a TV show

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You talkin' about Dolly Parton?:D

No, but good to see you still got the appropriate 'one track' mind. ;) Actually, I was thinking about a DIYer's three way I auditioned awhile back. It was 'voiced' so bad that Diana Krall sounded more like Janis Joplin....... Maybe a 'trailer trash' DK weaned on Jack Daniels and Lucky Strikes got him 'focused'.

GM

Sorry guys, daughter has been busy so no pics till tomorrow. I have been playing and listening to the valencias all afternoon. And you're right, the vocals are too bright, a little fatiguing after a while. So now what, add an equalizer, like what's in the santiagos, A 30904 or 30905, I definitely need to do something with the brightness of those horns. Any help would be appreciated, thanks in advance. Another question, could the horns be bright because of new diaghphrams? :doh:

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Originally Posted by GM

Yeah, expanded double knit is my fave since it's ~acoustically transparent if stretched tight enough and available in myriad colors to blend/whatever to the decor and in a pinch can be dyed with paint if you have a spray system.

Where durability is required, pet resistant window/door screen material works well, though the top end needs to be a little 'bright' as it rolls off the highs somewhat and AFAIK it's only available in black and gray.

GM

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LMAO,or since i'm making my own grills, i could find and use the material of a peach colored leisure suit from the same time period the valencias were made. That material should stretch real nice. :snickerpup: