Speaker placement (and elevation)

I own three pair of vintage Altecs and have them set up in three rooms in the house. I feel I've got them EQ'd and placed where they sound best and work best for the functionality of the rooms as well. I'm finally really happy with how all three setups sound but I'm always wondering if with a little more knowledge I could make things even better. I have two main questions to pose to the experts out there.

Anyways, FIRST QUESTION--SPEAKER ELEVATION: My model 19's are taller than my Valencias and my Heathkit AS-101's which came stock from Heathkit with Valencia drivers, Heathkit crossovers (superior to the Valencia crossovers) in Heathkit cabinets (which are identical in dimension to Altec Flamenco cabinets--slightly different dimensions than the Valencias). The model 19's seem to be the perfect height for me--when I sit on my couch--the horns are right at ear level and these things sound amazing. You can see where this thread is going--the Valencias and AS 101's are considerably shorter/lower and the horns are more chest/abdomen level. I have "propped up" the fronts of both of these pairs of speakers--and now the highs sound great--with the "right" EQ both pair now sound VERY close to as good as the Model 19's. My first question is: would I be better off (for the low frequency response of the Valencias and AS 101's) building some type of risers instead of "propping up" the fronts of them? Here are some photos to give you an idea of what I mean--some of these pics are more relevant to my second question (coming up next).
LIVING ROOM SET UP (AS-101's):

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc.../2010/03/8.jpg
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc.../2010/03/9.jpg
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2010/03/10.jpg

REC. ROOM SETUP (FINISHED BASEMENT):

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2010/03/11.jpg
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2010/03/12.jpg
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2010/03/13.jpg
THIS THREAD/POST IS CONTINUED (BELOW) IN MY REPLY TO MY OWN POST DUE TO EXCEEDING THE NUMBER OF IMAGES ALLOWED IN A SINGLE POST......

PART TWO OF THE ABOVE THREAD/POST

RECORDING STUDIO/REHEARSAL STUDIO FOR MY (ROCK) BAND:

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2010/03/14.jpg
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2010/03/15.jpg
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2010/03/16.jpg

Notice the Zenith Allegro 3000 speakers on top of the Valencias. I don't play both pair at the same time. The Allegros are only for playbacks of mixes of band recordings--sometimes it's useful to hear what the music sounds like on smaller speakers as well for comparative purposes. BTW, these Zenith Allegro Speakers are the best free speakers I've ever stumbled upon. I got them from the Craigslist "free" section after reading about them on an audio forum. They have Foster (Fostex) horns (!)and 10" Alnico (!) woofers in ported/tuned/inexpensive cabinets and actually sound really nice--crisp highs and unbelievable deep and tight bass.... But I digress.... Anyways, my FIRST QUESTION was: would I be better off (for the low frequency response of the Valencias and AS 101's) building some type of risers instead of "propping up" the fronts of them as shown in the photos? BTW, I REALLY had to prop up the fronts of the Valencias wayyy up because we are standing up during band practice (listening to the Vals while standing up). I can tell you the Valencias and AS 101's sound great the way they are, but would they sound even better on risers? They didn't sound nearly as good before I propped up the fronts--both pair were playing to my navel!

QUESTION TWO--SPEAKER PLACEMENT:
I've read somewhere (not here) that it is often times best to place speakers in the corners of a room--is this true? I'm sure having them in a corner affects the sound as far as reflectivity, but not sure if it's viewed as optimum placement acoustically or if it's just "different". As you can see in my photos, in each of my three setups, one speaker is in a corner of the room and one is not. This is probably not a good idea theoretically, but believe it or not, in all three setups, the imaging is tight--and when I play them in mono the sound (bass, treble, and mids) seems to come from the "dead center" point between the two speakers. In stereo, things like lead vocal usually sound like they're from the center (if the vinyl or CD was mixed that way). I use Sennheiser headphones for comparison--anyone out there a fan of Sennheisers?......

Thanks in advance for any info and opinions on these two questions--hopefully this will be useful to others here as well.....

Well this is very interesting.

Is the only thing that makes the model 19 "better" the fact that the horn is at ear height?
These 3 speakers are more alike than different, anyway.

I've noticed that there are some significant differences besides speaker height. Besides speaker height "adjustment", both the Valencias and the AS 101's need a little more high EQ added (particularly 15k and up) with an equalizer and then sound very close to as good as the Model 19's. A little extra low EQ helps them to compete with the 19's as well. All three pair have an indescribably crystal clear "precise" sound and unbelievably "tight" stereo imaging.... Any thoughts on my two questions about height and placement?

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Originally Posted by Panomaniac

Well this is very interesting.

Is the only thing that makes the model 19 "better" the fact that the horn is at ear height?
These 3 speakers are more alike than different, anyway.

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Absolutely !!! you really need to get them off the ground with a table,stands,anything at least a foot I think you would you like the sound much,much better

Sennheiser headphones. I have had a pair of HD 420s for over 30years. Very pleased with them. Unfortunately the foam ear pads have disintegrated and Sennheiser do not have spares for this model.

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Originally Posted by Altec Best

Absolutely !!! you really need to get them off the ground with a table,stands,anything at least a foot I think you would you like the sound much,much better

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Not sure if I understand--What is the sonic advantage to putting the speakers on stands compared to leaving them on the floor and boosting up the fronts? I've got the fronts of the speakers propped up now so the angle of the horns and woofers are pointing upward right to ear level.

Also, anyone out there have any thoughts on what difference/advantage there is in having a speaker in the corner of a room compared to not having it placed in a corner?

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Originally Posted by voice of the theater

--What is the sonic advantage to putting the speakers on stands compared to leaving them on the floor and boosting up the fronts?

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When tilting the speakers up the point source is still only 3 feet off the floor. Putting Vals on 2 foot stands gives me a more realistic sound stage. Voices seem to come from a natural height. This probably depends on how large your listening room is and how far away from the speakers you are.

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Originally Posted by Panomaniac

Is the only thing that makes the model 19 "better" the fact that the horn is at ear height?

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I've aquired Valencias recently and have owned mod 19s for 25 yrs. I have found that the attenuator on the valencias need to be turned way down and both treble and bass on the amp need to be boosted. Then IMO the Vals can sound like the 19s but not as good. The 19s with the L-pads in the optimum positions IMO play cleaner have more detail and play louder w/o distortion. The Vals sound very good elevated at this time about 1.5 feet above the floors. For my personal taste I think the 19s should be elevated about a foot above the floor. I plan to try it this weekend.

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Originally Posted by voice of the theater

"My first question is: would I be better off (for the low frequency response of the Valencias and AS 101's) building some type of risers instead of "propping up" the fronts of them?"
(and)
Also, anyone out there have any thoughts on what difference/advantage there is in having a speaker in the corner of a room compared to not having it placed in a corner?

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In my non-technical estimation, when you raise them off the floor, you'd loose (alter) whatever ground coupling benefit you get for the LF, right? i.e. This is why we have free space, 1/2 space, 1/4 space etc. FR specs in some graphs. They being more specifically related to whether it's 'up against' the boundary(s) in question. If you like them where and at the angle they are, I think the obvious experiment would be more of a 3 sided 'sealed ramp', to ensure that the front baffle/sides present a continuous 'air tight' boundary to the other boundary that they are coupling with.

(with the ultimate (?) expressions of the tactic, eventually leading to 'wings' (e.g. for 828/825 cabs) or e.g. soffit mounting of studio monitors)

In kind though, consider the 'room modes', for which there should be some share/freeware calculators whereby you input the room dims. It will suggest what frequencies are boosted or nulled, and you can then tinker by ear with an e.q. to see if you agree with the results. (I don't think they take placement into account, but you'd know what LF frequencies to pay attention to, as you move them around).

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Originally Posted by rontec

For my personal taste I think the 19s should be elevated about a foot above the floor. I plan to try it this weekend.

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I'd agree.....Here's mine laying on it's back......not quite as high though.
Although mine have pedestals taller than stock......I plan on building some ten-inch high stands one day.
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2009/10/18.jpg

The basic thought here is to get the sound up to ear level.And it just looks a whole lot nicer than proping the front of the speakers with something does it not.

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Originally Posted by Russnohio

Here's mine laying on it's back......

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Oh dear.... Looks like your 19s have been drinking again! :Martini glass:

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Originally Posted by Panomaniac

Oh dear.... Looks like your 19s have been drinking again! :Martini glass:

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LMAO
Thanks everyone -- you've given me a lot to chew on this weekend....

... All of the above or you could just get a lower couch, HA :lol:. Just joking.
I also have a pair of 846B vals. so, I am concerned with placement as well.
It is my understanding solid placement with a firm floor is essential for proper bass response. I am no expert, I am just relaying what I have been told. A solid concrete floor is supposed to be best. You may want to consider putting some additional weight on them as well as a good solid base. I may try this with mine as well.
Good luck,
Marvin

My Valencias are sitting on plywood boxes that are 16" tall. Someone on this board said that for their best results each speaker should be pointed a little outside of the shoulders of the listener. I have found this to be true for me as well except I prefer the speakers to be pointed 2-3 feet on either side of the shoulders of the listener. As we know, every individual room will require a little experimentation. My 19s don't seem to be as fussy but I still need to spend a little time to varify that. Didn't get to elevating them 8-10 inches this weekend.:)

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Originally Posted by Mustang Marvin

It is my understanding solid placement with a firm floor is essential for proper bass response. I am no expert, I am just relaying what I have been told. A solid concrete floor is supposed to be best.

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My Model 19's and Valencias are on a concrete floor (finished basement as seen in pics) which has been carpeted with thin carpeting but has no carpet padding underneath so it is a very firm/hard surface. I think the carpet is good for absorbing any undesirable echo in the room. My AS-101's are in the living room on hardwood floors as seen in the pics in this thread so I think that's a good firm surface as well. I have an area rug in front of them which also seems to do a good job of "deadening" the acoustics of the living room....

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Originally Posted by rontec

Someone on this board said that for their best results each speaker should be pointed a little outside of the shoulders of the listener.

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I point all 3 pair of Altecs just outside my shoulders (when I'm sitting in the center position of the room half way between the speakers) and they do seem to sound best that way...

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Originally Posted by Altec Best

The basic thought here is to get the sound up to ear level.And it just looks a whole lot nicer than proping the front of the speakers with something does it not.

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Do you mean that propping up the fronts of the speakers with video cassettes won't make the cover of "Better Homes and Gardens"? ;)

I'm now seriously considering different options as far as risers, stands, bases, etc. for the Vals and 101's thanks to all the suggestions from everyone in this post. It seems most people here agree that the two main advantages of this are a more realistic soundstage (voices, etc. coming from a more natural height) and visual aesthetics as well. It's good to know that in the meantime, at least, I'm not hurting the bass response by having them sit directly on the floor with the fronts propped up. Thanks again everyone....

Greets!

This is a complex subject that is VERY room, personal preference dependent since typically below ~300 Hz the room dominates a speaker's response and males/females perceive what they hear somewhat differently, so without accurate room modes and speaker polar plot measurements about all one can do is talk in generalities and as I started to list all the considerations I realized I could spend all week typing an in-depth response.

This isn't going to happen, so if you're really serious about all this, then AFAIK all your answers as well as the ones you haven't thought of yet on this subject (and loads more) is in Don and Carolyn Davis's 'Sound System Engineering' and I assume in Dr. Geddes's books. There's probably others and if you knew what all to search for and can piece it together in your mind correctly, then it's all available via Google.

FWIW, for me, all the myriad considerations boiled down to the mids/HF (or at least their acoustic center) at ear height and where applicable, corner loaded. In all cases controlled directivity in our acute hearing BW and at least a minimal amount of LEDE (live end, dead end) room damping is required, i.e. acoustic solutions for acoustic problems. Note that unless specified, consumer speakers are never 'voiced' (response shaped) for proper corner loading.

Indeed, many (most?) do copious measurements to find some response mean (average) that combined with EQ will work 'good enough' overall in a wide variety of room sizes/shapes, positions, though back when large cabs were the rule rather than the exception it often was more about how much they could minimize them, so cabs backed up against a wall to get max LF gain in the minimum bulk, ergo the mids/HF had to be low too for best integration, making for relatively 'squat' cabs. Of course, for 'single', duplex or similar drivers, some compromise height was required and AFAIK it was Harry Olson in the late '40s that concluded that a tall cab with a low vent (AKA, tower, column, now MLTL) satisfactorily overcame this. Frazier and others countered with woofer down low and mid/HF up high, with some models having a reflex vent between the two, but these quickly disappeared no doubt due to being the overall poor performers that they were.

GM

[QUOTE=voice of the theater;1818584]
Do you mean that propping up the fronts of the speakers with video cassettes won't make the cover of "Better Homes and Gardens"? ;)

[QUOTE]

BINGO :D

GM- nice summary!

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Originally Posted by mah

Sennheiser headphones. I have had a pair of HD 420s for over 30years. Very pleased with them. Unfortunately the foam ear pads have disintegrated and Sennheiser do not have spares for this model.

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I bought a pair of Sennheiser HD 424's back in high school and they've lasted me about 20 years--the foams finally gave out on mine too! Here is a good place to buy replacement foams for $7.95 a pair USD--and you could probably find them elsewhere or make your own cheaper.... Sennheiser | HD424-03 - Ear Cushions for Sennheiser | 019543 When I bought my first Sennheisers, I auditioned many different headphones trying to find a pair that were as "crisp"/clear/detailed sounding as the Altecs that I was familiar with at the time (the Model 9's I owned back then and the Valencias that my older brother owned--which are now my Valencias as his wife didn't want them in their home!) and the Sennheisers seemed to have a similar character and quality of sound (compared to the Altecs). I'm still using Sennheisers to this day and they are amazing sounding headphones although I know they now have a brand new line which I've never heard.....

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Originally Posted by GM

Note that unless specified, consumer speakers are never 'voiced' (response shaped) for proper corner loading.



GM

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Nice post GM--I have all three pair "backed up against a wall" (as you described in your post) and they do sound great that way. I'm not sure if I understand this one section of your post. Do you mean that Model 19's, Valencias, and AS-101's were not designed to be placed in the corners of a room? BTW, I understand that there are rarely Black and White answers to any questions like these.....

Thanks!

Correct, they are tuned too high/flat for it, so from a high SQ POV, for corner loading they typically need to be tuned lower to keep from sounding overly 'boomy' and due to the typically strong room modes, they need to be tuned ~a half octave apart and/or in smaller rooms even one or both sealed up.

GM

Those HD 424 ear cushions look like they could be adapted to the hd 420s. Thanks for the tip.

Cheers, Marshall.