Altec DEPENDABILITY

Most of the regulars here will know this but for the sake of some of our younger readers...

The first time I ever saw an Altec amp was in the factory I worked at. Three of them powered the PA system. I was always very concerned because no one ever turned them off. EVER.

Those amps ran for over 25 YEARS continuously and were never serviced even once. I believe they were the 1590 Model.

The equipment made by Altec then was literally so dependable they were actually UL listed as a fire signaling device. Think about that. ;)

Are there any amps built to that standard today?

Bryston is the only modern amp that I can think of that may match the reliability of Altecs. Any others out there?

Well Crown used to be. I don't know know.

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Originally Posted by Panomaniac

Well Crown used to be. I don't know know.

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I'd second this. The new Crown stuff from the last 10 years is crap IMHO.

Australian Monitor amps from the 80s and 1990s were just as bulletproof and sonically sweet, especially the 1K2 and the AM1600

Perreaux gear from the same period also bulletproof and sweet. I know a couple of cinemas with Perreaux stuff (8000Cs) on almost 24/7 for 20 yrs no issue.

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Originally Posted by SD-50

Bryston is the only modern amp that I can think of that may match the reliability of Altecs. Any others out there?

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I never paid much attention to Bryston equipment before. They must feel pretty strongly about them to include a 20 year warranty!!

I have never seen one in person. Are they that well built or is this one of those deals where an extended warranty is built into the price?

"Are they that well built or is this one of those deals where an extended warranty is built into the price?"

I believe all Bryston gear has a standard 20 year warranty. I know they've just released a CD player & that has a 20 year warranty.

They are certainly proud of their work!!! That stuff is EXPENSIVE. :eek:
I am thinking for that price they should give you a new one every 5 years. :D

You can find this in almost any product out there.

Appliances are my biggest gripe these days...They are NOTHING like they were 30 years ago. I have a Hotpoint frig in my basement that is 60+ years old and is still running with all 100% original parts. I'm on my third one in the past 20 years.

Power tools is another...I have a 55yo drill that still runs great...It's old reliable.

I think you'll find McIntosh still makes highly durable electronics. Still made in Binghamton NY..and for the past 20 years owned by Clarion.

Bryston years ago had a 20 year warranty on all their amps..then they made a change to give them a life-time warranty. Not sure what their policy is now. Their stuff is very nice and very expensive...but if the quality is there...

Mark Levinson and Crown are now owned by Harmon LTD. I'm NOT impressed with that company.

Speaking of appliances -

We bought an Amana refrigerator in 1983 - at the time, it was the largest one they made. It was made in the USA, and was very well built.

It survived 3 kids, all of whom were not gentle on it, four moves, and 27 years of abuse. It finally had to be replaced this year, not because it failed, but because it was worn out - the door gaskets were shot, the plastic shelving had cracked and was broken in spots, and the drain for the autodefrost system wouldn't stay unclogged. It was still running when I unplugged it took it to the scrapyard. Of course, it had an American-made compressor - try finding one of THOSE these days!

I replaced it with a 1955 Servel Gas Refrigerator that I lightly restored - all cosmetic work, as it needed NO mechanical repairs whatsoever. No moving parts - what a concept! Keeps everything right at 36-degrees for cheap, and, when we have those Oklahoma tornado's and ice storms, my refrigerator still works!

I built a website for folks who are interested in them:

Vintage Servel Refrigerators Homepage

One more thing:

I replaced TWO modern kitchen ranges with a 1955 Chambers 90C Range that will outlast anything made today, and it does a better job of cooking, too!

I built a website for folks who like them, too:

Welcome to the Chambers Stove Lover's Website!

I'm an old guy so I like old stuff. The vintage audio equipment whether tube amps or speakers are just as good as new today as ever IMHO as long as their components are kept up to original specks and quality (or better).

I remember when cars were made to last 10 years. 20 years ago it was 4 years and now maybe 2. It may not exist anymore as we know (or knew it), but vintage Altec equipment will last a lifetime if maintained and updated properly.

I just bought a 40 year old McIntosh MC 240 and MX 110 that had been refurbished by Terry Dewick. They tested as new or better and sound great. I feel confident they will last as long as I do, maybe longer. This is why I choose vintage Altec equipment. I'm sure there are other vintage products that are just as good, I just choose what I know and am comfortable with. It's clear to me that the reason these tried and true vintage Altec products are as popular today as ever is quality. Just like my vintage McIntosh amps. I bet there are more of us that agree on this than disagree...

well, my 515bs are 50 yrs old and my ford truck has 350,000 miles on it

My own examples - all made in Canada with that phrase proudly displayed on a maple leaf-shaped sticker, back when we had a manufacturing industry:

Mom's Maytag washer and dryer from 1962 till 1996: sold working, not junked.

1960 Electrolux vacuum with Buck Rogers styling (hammertone green, like ALTEC in the same era-now there's a good tie-in).

1963 Frigidaire deep-freeze-was still working when they sold it in 2000 or so.

Even Electrohome -not the rebranded clock radios from China today, but I don't want to slag all things made in China-made some still-desirable Williamson-type push-pull tube amps in Kitchener, Ontario in the late 50's.

I second the votes for McIntosh-my MC2100 is rock-solid.

Jon A.

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Originally Posted by Mustang Marvin

I remember when cars were made to last 10 years. 20 years ago it was 4 years and now maybe 2. It may not exist anymore as we know (or knew it), but vintage Altec equipment will last a lifetime if maintained and updated properly.

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I have noticed there are many 10-to-20-year-old cars on the road today, compared to when I had my first, a '68 Monaco 500, which was then 13 years old. In 1981 seeing anything pre-'75, at least in salt-strewn Nova Scotia-I'll concede not exactly like rust-free South Carolina-was head-turning.

On balance though I think all carmakers cleaned up their acts-and their sheet-metal-after Pinto and Vega rust lawsuits in the '70s.

I enjoy reading everyone's interesting observations.

Jon A.

Sears Kenmore fridge has never needed servicing. It's out in garage for "beverages", bought new in 1980.
Sears Kenmore gas hot water heater with 5 year warranty, still going since 1985, and water in SoCal, well, not so good, calcium & other "things".
My 515-8LF's, in continuous service since 1980, never reconed.......yet.

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Originally Posted by Todd W. White

Speaking of appliances -

We bought an Amana refrigerator in 1983 - at the time, it was the largest one they made. It was made in the USA, and was very well built.

It survived 3 kids, all of whom were not gentle on it, four moves, and 27 years of abuse. It finally had to be replaced this year, not because it failed, but because it was worn out - the door gaskets were shot, the plastic shelving had cracked and was broken in spots, and the drain for the autodefrost system wouldn't stay unclogged. It was still running when I unplugged it took it to the scrapyard. Of course, it had an American-made compressor - try finding one of THOSE these days!

I replaced it with a 1955 Servel Gas Refrigerator that I lightly restored - all cosmetic work, as it needed NO mechanical repairs whatsoever. No moving parts - what a concept! Keeps everything right at 36-degrees for cheap, and, when we have those Oklahoma tornado's and ice storms, my refrigerator still works!

I built a website for folks who are interested in them:

Vintage Servel Refrigerators Homepage

One more thing:

I replaced TWO modern kitchen ranges with a 1955 Chambers 90C Range that will outlast anything made today, and it does a better job of cooking, too!

I built a website for folks who like them, too:

Welcome to the Chambers Stove Lover's Website!

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Those are EXCELLENT websites Todd. For those of you who didnt look or just glanced, GO BACK and check them out good. If I am not mistaken, I think the gas refrigerators are banned now. We couldnt have anything that works that well and they literally run for pennies in operating costs.

I have always wondered why no one has reintroduced them.....

Note to Todd.... Have you ever seen an Icy Ball? :D

Well as much as I love old cars - I really don't think they were that well built. At least not post war. Sometimes you get lucky and find a surviver, but think of all the ones that did NOT make it.

Among my daily drivers have been a '59 Jag, 65 Dodge, '63 Buick and others. Solid, heavy, little or no plastic. But well built? Not really. Some old coot will always come up and say "They sure don't build 'em like they used to." I just smile. The old coots should go back and read some old car mags. Most of them in the "good old days" needed fixing right out of the factory. Thanks goodness they were at least easier to fix.

But old audio gear is different. The good stuff really was good. Except for the darn cheap connectors and pots.....

My 2c, the inside of old Mac equipment was built as tuff as military grade equipment.
It looked the same inside as my old favorite Collins gear.
Still working perfect after 60 years.
You know you are old when all your favorite stuff is in Museums.

The Hammond Museum of Radio Collins Collection




:)

Never seen an Icy Ball, but I know what it is.

No, the old Servel's weren't banned, but here's what happened:

This came about as the result of an investigation of the vintage refrigerators by the U. S. Consumer Product Safety Commission.

Because a few owners didn't properly maintain and operate their older Servel's, the CPSC decided that they were dangerous, and set up something called the Servel Action Committee. Though it has no authority to force people to do turn in their old Servel's, it does have the authority to force the company that ended up with Servel's liabilities as the result of a purchase in 1969 to pay for the recall (unbelievable, huh?).

This company, Gould, Inc., of Eastlake, Ohio, is a maker of medical and electrical components. Though they have never made refrigerators, they are being forced by the CPSC to pay $100 plus disposal costs to anyone who has a Servel and applies for the money. To date, this government intrusion has cost Gould, Inc., over $20,000!

Amazing, huh?

Oh - with regard to the old electronics-vs-new electronics on sonic performance:

Years ago, Hirsch-Houk Labs, as I recall, did a test of an H. H. Scott Philharmonic with the then state-of-the-art stereo systems and found the pre-WWII Philharmonic beat them, hands down in every area except that they were monophonic, not stereo.

All new appliances are designed today to fail in a short period of time.This is so you need to keep buying this junk it's called GREED.If companys have no demand they go out of business they need constant customers.I bought a Brand New Air Cond. unit a window job that was 24,000 btu it lasted 1 summer the following summer fired it up and a week later the fan motor blew the fan motor it is a 240V monster.And when the motor went it took out the circuit board that controlled the digital control/display functions.Of course it said made in China all over it.This is the price we are going to pay for exporting most of the manufacturing jobs to C*H*I*N*A :mad: now this is one example in many that I have experianced with all this High Quality chinese junk I have had the displeasure of buying :Sad no: I want my American made stuff back PLEASE :flagwaver: I have nothing against chinese people, I just don't like their consumer products 1 I oda

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I want my American made stuff back PLEASE :flagwaver: I have nothing against chinese people, I just don't like their consumer products 1 I oda

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It has NOTHING to do with being made in America or China. It has EVERYTHING to do with the management structure of the company. Companies want to make the highest possible profit. If that means making a cheap product so you have to buy a new one every 5 years..so be it...Where is the cheapest place we can make this product....US or China...Which ever is the cheapest...That's MANY companies philosophy.

Jack Welch (ex ECO or GE) had a philosophy of....Keep upper management here in the US and move everything else off-shore. Seems that more and more companies are following that philosophy.

I'm not an electronics expert but I thought that heat cycles (on, off, on, off, on off) were a major electronics killer.... so leaving an amp on 100% of the time is good for longevity; right?

Most of the new audio electronics IMO including Onkyo, Denon, etc is trash. I have 3 new Crowns made in communist china (500wpc x 2 @ 8ohms) and they are solid performers. My Lansing re-coner in NJ who sells Crown tells me they are garbage, and that nobody wants Chinese Crown amps, however.

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Originally Posted by MikeInNH

If that means making a cheap product so you have to buy a new one every 5 years..so be it...Where is the cheapest place we can make this product....US or China...Which ever is the cheapest...That's MANY companies philosophy.

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You MIGHT get 5 years and these days you BETTER purchase the extended warranty. :mad:

In my opinion this is one of the main reasons companies like Altec are gone. You cant make any money if you dont sell them and most people will not pay extra for quality.

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Originally Posted by Nipper

You MIGHT get 5 years and these days you BETTER purchase the extended warranty. :mad:

In my opinion this is one of the main reasons companies like Altec are gone. You cant make any money if you dont sell them and most people will not pay extra for quality.

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Exactly as I would rather pay for quality I'm not looking for cheap.I won't buy any of the new stuff today unless it is MADE IN THE U.S.A.I just saw on the news a story about labor and the differance between the US and China to make the same product in each country you have to pay an American worker on average $28 hr and for the average Chinese worker $.85 hr now how can you compete with that.If you are happy with your chinese product then keep buying, how I see it the more we buy from China the more people we put out of work here in the US personally that doesn't sit well with me.I have an AC unit a couple camera,washer dryer,and a few other things that lasted a couple years all friggin junk.They come with warranties that ain't worth the paper they are written on.I paid $600 for the AC unit with a 5 year warranty the next year I had to have it repaired all the parts were free but the labor was $200 now I research any large appliance purchase and won't buy anything from China which today is just about everything.Has anybody ever considered we are making a Communist country RICH and our democracy POOR.:mad: :flagwaver::flagwaver::flagwaver: Personally I blame our politicians who have been running our country into the ground and now they are scrambling to try and fix it :rolleyes:

AB International stopped manufacturing their amps in China in the 90's. They will be coming out with a home series with no cooling fan soon. Check their web site.

Thank you NAFTA and GATT....and the Overseas Development Fund.

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Originally Posted by Todd W. White

Thank you NAFTA and GATT....and the Overseas Development Fund.

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MANY jobs lost in the USA has NOTHING to do with NAFTA or GATT. Engineering and Service jobs for one. In the past 10 years..accounting...Medical and even law jobs are being outsourced.

If you get an X-Ray in almost any of the Major hospitals in the Boston area...the X-Ray is evaluated by a Doctor in India.

If you use a service from a large accounting firm to do your taxes..there's a good change it's done by an Accountant in India or even China.

Many Law research firms have now outsourced their jobs to India.

BIO Chem research labs are almost non existent in the US these days.

and the list goes on.

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Originally Posted by MikeInNH

If you get an X-Ray in almost any of the Major hospitals in the Boston area...the X-Ray is evaluated by a Doctor in India.

If you use a service from a large accounting firm to do your taxes..there's a good change it's done by an Accountant in India or even China.

Many Law research firms have now outsourced their jobs to India.

BIO Chem research labs are almost non existent in the US these days.

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I had no idea those type of jobs were going overseas.

Well, then it's the fault of:

A. The people who want to save money by not paying someone in the U.S.A. to do it.

B. The people who do not want to pay corporate taxes in America, so they relocate overseas.

C. The people who sue to protect "the environment" at the expense of all else - even American jobs - when a suitable compromise could be worked out, if they were willing to listen.

D. The people who are willing put up with it because "it's cheaper" and keep doing business with the companies that outsource their work or manufacturing.

E. The people who allow this to happen (aka the politicians), who, for whatever reason, allow the laws of this country to be either violated or so written as to allow it (or even encourage it, like the Overseas Development Fund (aka USAID), which will PAY YOU to shut down your AMERICAN factory, PAY FOR it's relocation to a third world country, PAY FOR it to be set up there, then GIVE YOU import tariff exceptions to ship your junk back into the USA to be sold to the unsuspecting populace, who think that familiar "brand name" item is still made here!).

F. The people who hate our country and will do anything to destroy it.

G. The typical people of America who sit in front of their televisions night after night watching Entertainment Tonight, TMZ, American Idolatry, etc., and allow us to become a nation of consumers, living on the dole as the nation loses it's sovereignty and ability to defend itself.

End of rant.

Can you tell I've had a long day? :P

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Originally Posted by Todd W. White

Can you tell I've had a long day? :P

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I feel like I just watched a sleeping rattle snake get poked with a stick :D

Most of what you just said goes along with what I've said before (although, not here), and that's that many many Americans base their purchase decisions chiefly on price. You extend that to the corporate world which I'd have to agree with. It gets to the point (where we are now) that there isn't much choice. Entire industries have gone to China or other places. It's just about impossible to find brake parts made any place but China. I looked long and hard before I could find some rotors for my truck that weren't Chinese, and the ones I ended up purchasing were from Mexico. Radiators are mostly from China now, too. I did find a US made radiator, but couldn't get one shipped to me undamaged..... tried twice.

A variation on an old saying: "A rampant Capitalist has no conscience". :eek:

Marshall.

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Originally Posted by mah

A variation on an old saying: "A rampant Capitalist has no conscience". :eek:

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An old saying where? I've never heard it. I beleive in capitalism, but I don't beleive it should be the end all, in every decision made by an individual, or a company.

Just getting back to Bryston, I'll happily second (third?) that endorsement. They have that warranty because they know they won't need much fixing. My father has had a 4B since 1974, serviced once for free in the '90's. Works great, sounds fantastic for sand on a pair of Dahlquist's.

Dave

there's stuff out there...
check out the odyssey audio amps...american made...killer
check out the gpa 288h drivers and 515 woofers...american made...killer

I share all the feelings here except for one.
The best that America is should not be measured by big corporations
and the bottom line. The real value of America is in each of us.

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A. The people who want to save money by not paying someone in the U.S.A. to do it.

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I have one of those jobs (software engineer) that is moving faster and faster overseas every day. I use to do consulting...but it became more and more difficult to compete with places like India/China/Inodnesia...The engineers in many of these places make less then I pay in property taxes every year. It's become IMPOSSIBLE to compete.

95% (OR MORE) of the companies that outsource are very large corporations. Companies like HP, Oracle, Microsoft, IBM. All those companies have major campuses in India and China..employing THOUSANDS of highly educated engineers making 1/10 what a comparable engineer makes here in the US. It gets too costly for smaller companies to only outsource 1-2 engineers.

And in some cases we the tax payers are paying for this. One of my consulting jobs was to AIG insurance in Bedford NH. They closed down the whole shop...laid off 1000 engineers and moved the whole operation to India.

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B. The people who do not want to pay corporate taxes in America, so they relocate overseas.

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VERY VERY few companies have relocated overseas. Many have moved whole divisions overseas. But they still need a US presence to do business in the US. Only lately has the Government been clamping down on these companies....Remember Halliburton??? The company Chaney was CEO of??? They moved a good portion of their corporate headquaters overseas to avoid taxes while Bush was president. Funny how it was never looked into until recently.

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C. The people who sue to protect "the environment" at the expense of all else - even American jobs - when a suitable compromise could be worked out, if they were willing to listen.

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I've see BOTH sides of this issue unwilling to compromise on ANYTHING. Take a look at the environmental laws in the past 30 years...and you'll see corporation after corporation finding loopholes to side-step any regulation (even though the cost isn't that high).

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D. The people who are willing put up with it because "it's cheaper" and keep doing business with the companies that outsource their work or manufacturing.

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I don't do business with them if I can...but it's virtually impossible. I NEED a computer to do my work.

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E. The people who allow this to happen (aka the politicians), who, for whatever reason, allow the laws of this country to be either violated or so written as to allow it (or even encourage it, like the Overseas Development Fund (aka USAID), which will PAY YOU to shut down your AMERICAN factory, PAY FOR it's relocation to a third world country, PAY FOR it to be set up there, then GIVE YOU import tariff exceptions to ship your junk back into the USA to be sold to the unsuspecting populace, who think that familiar "brand name" item is still made here!).

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Since the politicians are in bed with large corporations...and get major contributions every year...And it's not a Republican or Democrat thing....Both parties are doing this...Although 20 years ago they were almost exclusively Republican.

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F. The people who hate our country and will do anything to destroy it.

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They will always exist.

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G. The typical people of America who sit in front of their televisions night after night watching Entertainment Tonight, TMZ, American Idolatry, etc., and allow us to become a nation of consumers, living on the dole as the nation loses it's sovereignty and ability to defend itself.

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Most of the people I've seen have good paying jobs. Good friend of mine is a Manager at Home Depot...and he's all for his company outsourcing their IT and software jobs overseas....He doesn't understand the big picture and how it will affect him.

So I tell him...."If I loose my job...I may end up working at Home Depot. So who do you think will get have a better chance of promotion...."Me..who has a BS and MS degree...Proven exceptional work history...or YOU...High-school diploma who's only had one steady job for the 4 years???" He now understands how it will effect him....but he still thinks it's a good idea...

I have a friend who's daughter is in her 4th year at MIT. Scored 2400 on her SAT's......Has an IQ of OVER 150....Holding a 4.8 gpa (MIT is based on a 5.0)....Has switched majors 3 times because of the job market. And she's about to graduate with only ONE interview and no job offers yet. When I graduated college...I had well over 15 interviews...and 15 job offers and I didn't go to MIT....If our economy is to be based on service jobs (i.e McDonalds)..then we're doomed.

One of the other things that is often overlooked, if it's known about at all, is the fact that a company that manufactures something outside the U.S.A. and wants to import it doesn't have the same costs to build it that an American company does if they want to build it here, and that product isn't taxed when it is brought into the country. If it were, the playing field would be level, but it's not. The result is, as you point out, it becomes impossible for American companies to compete. Add to this the huge import duties of American-made products that other countries levy, and the problem is made even worse.

The bottom line is that no country can survive unless it can make and grow what it needs - anything less than that, and they become slaves to their suppliers, be they overseas corporations or foreign governments, etc.

This has been a long time coming, but is accelerating and is probably unstoppable, barring a major war that would force America to bring manufacturing, etc., back home.

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Originally Posted by Todd W. White

This has been a long time coming, but is accelerating and is probably unstoppable, barring a major war that would force America to bring manufacturing, etc., back home.

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That pretty much sums it up. The problem is, we could never rebuild those factories and steel plants quick enough to win a real war. Ask our enemies from WWII. Most of the Companies credited with helping us win that war are gone now. You cant throw a factory together and train people overnight. :(

What's really sad about all this is the products with REAL quality are not filling the trash dumps. People are hoarding them now. Altec may have been the greenest audio manufacturer ever and didnt know it!
:snickerpup:

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Originally Posted by MikeInNH

And in some cases we the tax payers are paying for this. One of my consulting jobs was to AIG insurance in Bedford NH. They closed down the whole shop...laid off 1000 engineers and moved the whole operation to India.

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What does AIG need with engineers?

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Originally Posted by Nipper

What's really sad about all this is the products with REAL quality are not filling the trash dumps. People are hoarding them now. Altec may have been the greenest audio manufacturer ever and didnt know it!
:snickerpup:

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I don't beleive this. A select few people actively seek out the good old products, but the vast majority of people will toss it because it's old, and happily buy new at Walmart, Menards, or one of the other stores selling new&shiny things.