Should the Essentials use proxies of the power 9?
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Should the Essentials use proxies of the power 9?
Lookie there, I made a poll! I haven't voted yet because I'm still thinking the issue over.
On one hand, shouldn't the Essentials be all that a 5-color, casual, highlander deck could be?
On the other, doesn't power send it into cut-throat territory? And can't the deck already be silly awesome enough without power? And for being the best of the awesome, I'm not sure if I'd like to see proxies in the deck whatsoever.
Thoughts?
I've actually thought about this quite a bit and these are the points I've come up with...
1. I feel that the Essentials should have all of the best cards for 5-color, but I don't want to see crap proxies. So If we do decide to add proxies to it, I think we need to come up with a way to make good proxies ourselves, or find some nice ones for sale. I woulld also like to do the same for my 5-color deck.
2. If we do add power to the Essentials, I think we should maintain a list of the Bargain Essentials. It does not need to be a real deck, but just a deck list of all of the best stuff under $5 per card. I think this would help to show new people that 5-color doesn't need to be a daunting task of finding great old power cards that cost $20 and up (and $50 and up for many duals now).
First off, I'm happy we're taking about the Essentials because at one point in time my 5-color was the Essentials =)
and second off, I'm still torn on the proxies, but I love Jason's two cents.
Okay, first off, nice proxies of the power 9 aren't hard to come up with. I've seen some very nice stuff that people have done. I'm sure that if they could, we could. One of our printers must be good enough. I haven't tried my new one out yet, so I don't know.
Second, you may have just hit on a brilliant idea. The Budget Essentials. Every card $5 or under. That sounds like a great idea. The Essentials is pure gas power amazing. The Budget would still be good, but not as over the top.
If a Budget Essentials were to be developed, I would suggest that the Essentials push towards the absolute best it can be. Full power. Proxies of any other expensive card that should be in it. For example, if we decide it needs something like the Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, then we add it. This would cause a lot of rethinking. For the first time we'd actually have to examine and determine the absolute best mana base. Not just one based on the best I have available. That's been the case in the past as we've rarely set the mana base as standard to the Essentials.
Next, should the Budget Essentials be set at $5? $10? $7? What's the best? Determining that number might needs a little debate. $5 is easy, but is it too cheap? I guess not. It is budget after all. However, with $5, a lot of options are limited. Sweepers, for example, would be difficult. It would require a lot of work to create the Budget Essentials.
If this route is pursued, I suggest we finish the Essentials and then worry about the Budget Essentials after that. I would also likely construct the Budget Essentials because I think that would be pretty damned cool.
Sweepers won't be too bad to come up with...
Rout: $3
Hallowed Burial: $1.30
Bane of the Living: $0.30
Chain Reaction: $1
Austere Command: $0.60
And that was just off the top of my head...
On the topic of the Buget Essentials, I really feel like $5 is a good spot. If we went up to $10, we can start including Rav Duals, WoG and a lot more power, but I think $5 is a good starting place. Fun note: RoE is supposed to have a functional reprint of Terramorphic Expanse.
After more thought, I agree on the $5. That still includes a lot of the Essentials. I repriced the entire list from about 7/09. A lot of stuff still makes it, some of it surprising. So, I have that list when we start working on that.
Also, you're right on the sweepers. I guess I was thinking of the JV squad or something. There's still way more than enough.
The Budget Essentials sounds like it would be a lot of fun to build/play. And based off that I agree with you Aaron about the full power, making the Essentials ridiculous!
Yep, I voted 'yes' in the proxy poll once I realized which route we were going down. Now I guess this thread is nearly dead. We need to go back to the Essentials thread and determine what that deck will be.
We should make these proxies.
Yeah we should just do a bulk order of proxies to save everyone a little cash. Foil ones would be fun...
Order? We could make them. It would be shit tons cheaper. For foil ones, we just need a fancy laser printer. Who has one?
Non-foil? I think we can do those on inkjet.
You think? I've had trouble with cutting the cards and getting the thickness right (see the x-mass card Aaron the Rentless). But if you can come up with a good way to do it, I'm all for it. I have a photo printer, and it does great quality on photo paper. I made Goyf proxies that were convincing enough that it freaked everyone out at Stadium when Jacob ripped one up in front of them.
Seems like it could be done easily. We just need to research method. Perhaps there's something on the mtgsalvation forums?
Acetone on foil cards then print a high resolution picture.
Obviously there's more too it, but that's the very basic idea.
That's what I've heard. However, that's the kind that needs laser printing. There are no real proxies on ebay from what I can tell. Have to find a different source if it comes to purchasing.
If it comes down to buying I know the Magic dealer at Gibraltar Trade Center had some last month when I was there.
Okay, I finally got around to doing a little work on this. I bought acetone at Meijer. That easily strips all the paint off a card without ruining it. Gives a wonderfully printable surface. I found an appropriate image and just printed it from firefox. It was close to the right size. I cut it out and taped the card in its spot. Printed again. The net result was not amazing, but proves that it can be done.
So, I think we need something that works with images to print from rather than generic _____ program. Photoshop seems the right choice. Then we can take the high quality image and perfectly size it. That will produce the best print quality.
Next, I've read that the ink will affix better if you lightly sand the card after removing the art. We're talking like 800-1000 grade sandpaper. I haven't found anything higher than 300 in the local Meijer/Lowes/local Ace.
Lastly, I believe setting your printer to a cardstock setting will tell it to print slower and give the card more time to absorb the ink.
I'll be trying these steps out when I get around to it. This is just for regular cards, but I think the process will be similar for foils.
After I get this perfected, I'll write about the method more and then everyone else can try it on their own printers. If someone's works really well we can all make them print cards for us ;)
I can have Graham's little brother steal some good sandpaper from the wood shop at high school, and I'm sure I could find some for sale around Monroe.
It can be done. It's a lot of trial and error though.
My best results came from the following:
Tape a card down so its borders are covered.
Acetone the crap out of it.
Let dry a bit.
Print a test of the pic.
Cut out pic (leave a little bit of the borders) and tape card in place on the paper (tape goes from the back, though the paper, to the card).
Print with photoshop.
Print settings were as follows:
Max DPI
Least overspray
Mid-low ink
Photoshop manages color
Paper set as HP photo greeting card
It's not perfect, but it came out passable. It almost looks like a real card. You probably couldn't tell the difference with a sleeve. I'll scan the bad jobs and the decent one once they're all dry.
Next, I tried a foil with nearly the same settings. It's a disaster. It's just a mess of runny ink all blurred together. You can only see the vaguest hint of what the card is meant to be. I'm thinking that using less ink and telling it that it's super high glossy paper might work. Dunno. Nice thing about foils is that you can just wipe them and try again :D
And that's been the project of the day.
So, having read all 31 pages of the proxy thread on mtgsal, I discovered there's another. The second one is 72 pages, so it may take a while to get through.
The "Make a Proxy" Thread - MTG Salvation Forums
I'm hoping that one contains tips for printing foils beyond the clear, print on transparency, glue method. I'd like to keep the proxies at actual thickness.
http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg641/sca...=640&ysize=640
Here's my early tests.
#1 and #2 are just test on paper.
#3 is the first card test. The card was acetoned and then sanded.
#4 was the same just slightly lighter sanding.
#5-8 were all acetoned leaving the borders. Then they were lightly rubbed with water to rough the paper up a bit. #5 was the lowest amount of ink. #6 was mid-low, #7 was mid, #8 was mid-high
#9 is nearly a success. The image size on all of them was slightly too small. 9 was not sanded. In a sleeve it almost looks real, the border is a little off due to image size.
Nice, these are looking pretty good. I can't wait to see how they all turn out.
Yeah, me too!
I'm reading a bit into that super long thread. So far I haven't gotten much new info, but I've got a few really bitchin' proxies.
Seems like most people use the transparency route. Typically they're placed over a newer foil card that has had the foil removed. I guess that would reduce the thickness a bit if you could find a thin enough transparency.
Apparently for making foils, older ones are better (with trans). Older ones are foil with ink on them. Newer ones are actually a thin trans with foil powder stuff on the back. Well, so far as I've read.
Anyone have a laser printer? You can print on foils with one of those....
I've made some really really nice proxies now. However, you have to seal them against smudges. Also, the sealant can give them a gloss similar to a real card. I'm working on finding the stuff I hear is best.
Also, I want to make a cube. Everyone has a cube. Sounds awesome.
I've mostly got the process worked out. My sealer is a little too glossy, but other than that they look nice.
I picked up some "clear" mailing labels that are full sheets at staples. They're not clear. They kind of look like frosted glass. I printed to one, and stuck it on a foil to little effect. Then I sprayed it with sealer. The foil showed through. Looking into this method a bit more.
Guess who's learning to use photoshop....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...g?t=1276669206