As the title suggests, let's start forming a list of cards (<= ~$5) for a budget essentials list.
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As the title suggests, let's start forming a list of cards (<= ~$5) for a budget essentials list.
How about 3 or less? Then the cards are guaranteed to be less than a pack of cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by ejb
Where should we use for prices?
How about less than $4 Starcity prices? A pack retails for $3.99. Sure you can grab them cheaper, but you can also grab singles cheaper too. Even though I could find cheaper prices elsewhere, starcity is pretty easy to search. Convenient to stay at one site too. Deck builder will give me prices right quick.
So $4 at Starcity? Or less? Somewhere else?
Starcity seem ok for using as our standard for pricing, but of course that makes me want to say use a $5 max because of how they inflate their prices. But when I first thought about this, I picked 5 because it was a nice number that people can't really complain about being too much. So I don't care too much, but I do think 3 is too low.
I agree that we could drop down from $5. However, I think $3 seems a bit low as well. $4 seems better since it's pack retail.
For less than $3 you get no Ancestral Vision, but you can have it for less than $4. Similar stories: Memory Jar, Disk, Avatar of Woe, ect... Looks like the gap from $3 to $4 holds a lot of good. I'm still grabbing the numbers though. I'm grabbing everything $5 and less while we figure out the details.
I think 3- gives us a better deck building constraint. I'd rather the deck not be the normal 300 deck with just 75 new cards. Let's get some really interesting decisions in there.
That's a great point. Otherwise its just a slightly shittier version of the Essentials. Seems like a good argument for $3 to me.
I guess we need to talk about the reasoning behind the deck before we can pick maximum price per card. When I first thought of the budget essentials, I wanted it to be a showcase of the best multiplayer cards within a reasonable price range to proove to new players that they too can build a big 5-color deck like mine that does reasonable well at a fairly small investment.
That in mind I feel $4-5 gives us a much larger range of power available to new players.
Yes, $3 can give us an interesting challenge, but that was not the point of the deck for me. So thats where I am coming from.
That's a good point as well.
Perhaps we need:
The Essentials
The Budget Essentials
&
The Poor Bastard Essentials
? :D
I compiled all prices under $5. Everything is rounded up one penny because I didn't want to type all those stupid nines. The list included the current essentials, everything that's been left behind, and anything he discussed in updating the deck. That's surely not all of the cards in contention, but it's a good 300ish card start.
Behemoth Sledge $0.80
Bosh, Iron Golem $0.50
Cauldron of Souls $0.60
Citanul Flute $0.60
Darksteel Colossus $2.50
Darksteel Ingot $0.50
Duplicant $2.00
Enigma Sphinx** $0.60
Erratic Portal $1.25
Etched Oracle $0.30
Everflowing Chalice** $1.00
Expedition Map** $0.25
Explorer's Scope** $0.15
Fellwar Stone $0.20
Gilded Lotus $5.00
Grinning Totem $0.60
Ivory Tower $1.50
Journeyer's Kite $1.00
Lotus Bloom $5.00
Mangara's Tome $0.50
Memory Jar $3.50
Mind's Eye $2.50
Nevinyrral's Disk $3.50
Oblivion Stone $2.50
Panoptic Mirror $3.00
Planar Portal $1.25
Platinum Angel $2.00
Relic of Progenitus $0.40
Skullclamp $2.25
Solemn Simulacrum $3.00
Sphinx-Bone Wand $0.60
Sunforger $0.50
Vedalken Orrery $2.50
Avatar of Woe $4.00
Bane of the Living $0.80
Bloodchief Ascension** $2.00
Contract from Below $1.25
Decree of Pain $3.00
Demonic Collusion $0.60
Demonic Consultation $0.50
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief $1.25
Faceless Butcher $0.25
Guiltfeeder $2.25
Living Death $5.00
Mind Twist $3.00
Mortivore $2.25
Night Dealings $0.60
Oversold Cemetary $3.50
Rend Flesh $0.25
Sudden Death $0.60
Sudden Spoiling $1.50
Suffer the Past $0.50
Tainted Pact $0.60
Tortured Existence $0.25
Yawgmoth's Bargain $2.50
Allied Strategies $0.30
Ancestral Vision $3.50
Arcanis the Omnipotent $2.25
Braingeyser $2.50
Bribery $4.00
Bringer of the Blue Dawn $2.25
Compulsion $0.20
Cunning Wish $4.00
Dizzy Spell $0.15
Draining Whelk $0.60
Drift of Phantasms $0.25
Fabricate $0.50
Fact or Fiction $2.50
Flash $2.25
Forbid $0.50
Future Sight $0.80
Gifts Ungiven $4.00
Greater Morphling $0.60
Johnny, Combo Player $1.75
Magus of the Jar $0.60
Mystical Teachings $0.25
Recurring Insight $0.60
Rite of Replication** $1.25
Sphinx of Magosi $0.75
Stroke of Genius $5.00
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir $3.50
Thada Adel, Acquisitor** $0.60
Tinker $3.50
Trinket Mage $0.50
Willbender $0.30
Wonder $1.75
Anathemancer** $0.40
Bloodbraid Elf** $4.50
Brion Strongarm $0.75
Captain Sissy $2.00
Conflux $1.25
Dauntless Escort** $4.00
Dimir Infiltrator $0.25
Doran, the Siege Tower $3.50
Eladamri's Call $3.00
Empyrial Archangel** $3.00
Enlisted Wurm $0.50
Fight to the Death $0.60
Fires of Yavimaya $1.25
Hellkite Overlord $2.50
Hull Breach $0.25
Jenara, Asura of War** $3.50
Jund Charm $0.50
Lord of Extinction $2.50
Lorescale Coatl** $0.50
Loxodon Hierarch $2.00
Madrush Cyclops** $0.60
Maelstrom Nexus** $1.50
Meglonoth $0.75
Mirari's Wake $5.00
Mystic Enforcer $1.25
Mystic Snake $2.00
Novablast Wurm** $1.75
Oros, the Avenger $0.60
Prince of Thralls** $1.25
Putrefy $1.25
Qasali Pridemage $0.50
Rhox War Monk $0.80
Sen Triplets** $2.00
Shadowmage Infiltrator $1.75
Simic Sky Swallower $3.00
Sol'kanar the Swamp King $0.60
Spiritmonger $5.00
Sterling Grove $5.00
Stoic Angel $1.50
Teneb, the Harvester $0.75
Terminate $1.00
Thraximundar** $2.50
Trygon Predator $3.00
Vhati il-Dal $0.60
Vulturous Zombie $1.25
Wrexial, the Risen Deep $2.00
Acidic Slime $0.50
All Suns' Dawn $0.60
Birds of Paradise $3.50
Chameleon Colossus $3.50
Civic Wayfinder $0.25
Eternal Witness $4.00
Far Wanderings $0.25
Farseek $0.25
Forgotten Ancient $2.25
Genesis $5.00
Harrow $0.25
Hermit Druid $0.60
Hibernation's End $0.60
Hystrodon $0.60
Joiner Adept $1.75
Journey of Discovery $0.15
Kodama's Reach $0.75
Krosan Grip $3.00
Krosan Tusker $0.25
Land Aid 04 $0.15
Living Wish $4.49
Loaming Shaman $0.75
Mold Shambler $0.15
Nantuko Vigilante $0.25
Nature's Spiral** $0.30
Nostalgic Dreams $0.60
Pattern of Rebirth $1.50
Prismatic Omen $2.00
Protean Hulk $2.50
Raking Canopy $0.30
Rampaging Baloths** $2.50
Rampant Growth $0.25
Realms Uncharted $2.00
Reap and Sow $0.25
Recollect $0.30
Regrowth $1.25
Restock $1.00
Sakura-Tribe Elder $1.00
Scapeshift $5.00
Scute Mob** $1.25
Search for Tomorrow $0.25
Shard Convergence $0.30
Silklash Spider $1.00
Silvos, Rogue Elemental $4.00
Skyshroud Elf $0.25
Spike Weaver $2.00
Sylvan Library $4.49
Sylvan Scrying $0.40
Terastodon** $1.50
Thornscape Battlemage $0.30
Tooth and Nail $5.00
Treefolk Harbinger $0.80
Utopia Tree $1.50
Wall of Blossoms $1.75
Werebear $0.40
Wild Nacatl $0.60
Worldly Tutor $3.00
Yavimaya Elder $0.75
Cold-Eyed Selkie $4.00
Academy Ruins $4.00
Adarkar Wastes $3.00
Battlefield Forge $2.50
Bojuka Bog** $0.05
Brushland $2.00
Caves of Kolios $2.50
City of Brass $3.50
Emeria, the Sky Ruin** $2.50
Evolving Wilds $0.50
Forest $0.50
Grand Coliseum $0.80
Island $0.50
Karpulsan Forest
Kor Haven $2.00
Krosan Verge $0.40
Lavaclaw Reaches $2.50
Llanowar Reborn $0.50
Llanowar Wastes $2.00
Marsh Flats $10.00
Minamo, School at Water's Edge $2.00
Mountain $0.50
Murmuring Bosk $2.25
Nimbus Maze $1.75
Okina, Temple of Grandfathers $0.60
Plains $0.50
Shinka, the Bloodsoaked Keep $0.60
Shivan Reef $2.50
Strip Mine $2.50
Sulfurous Springs $2.00
Swamp $0.50
Tectonic Edge** $1.25
Terramorphic Expanse $0.40
Tolaria West $1.25
Undergroud River $2.99
Urborg $3.00
Vesuva $3.00
Yavimaya Coast $2.50
Yavimaya Hollow $3.50
Zoetic Cavern $0.30
Akroma, Angel of Fury $3.50
Ancient Hydra $0.30
Anger $1.00
Arc-slogger $0.50
Chain Reaction** $1.00
Desolation Giant $0.60
Dragonmaster Outcast** $0.80
Flameblast Dragon $0.80
Flametounge Kavu $0.80
Fledgling Dragon $2.25
Goblin Bombardment $1.25
Hissing Iguanar $0.15
Jaya Ballard, Task Mage $0.80
Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs $0.60
Knollspine Dragon $1.00
Magmaw $0.60
Rakavolver $0.60
Recoup $0.40
Starstorm $2.25
Stigma Lasher $2.00
Surreal Memoir $0.50
Wild Research $0.60
Assult/Battery $0.25
Dead/Gone $0.25
Fire/Ice $1.25
Order/Chaos $0.30
Spite/Malice $0.50
Who/What/When/Where/Why $1.00
Akroma, Angel of Wrath $4.00
Akroma's Vengeance $2.50
Balance $2.00
Chastise $0.30
Commander Eesha $2.00
Crib Swap $0.80
Deathless Angel $1.50
Decree of Justice $4.00
Dismantling Blow $0.25
Eternal Dragon $4.00
Exile $1.25
Gift of Estates $0.75
Glory $1.00
Hallowed Burial $1.75
Indomitable Ancients $0.75
Invincible Hymn** $0.60
Knight of the White Orchid** $3.50
Land Tax $4.00
Luminarch Ascension** $2.50
Magus of the Disc $0.60
Mangara of Corondor $0.60
Marshal's Anthem** $1.00
Oblation $0.60
Orim's Thunder $0.15
Pristine Angel $3.50
Reya, Dawnbringer $2.50
Rout $4.00
Seal of Cleansing $0.15
Spectral Lynx $1.25
Spirit of the Hearth $0.60
Stoneforge Mystic** $4.00
Stonehewer Giant $1.00
Swords to Plowshares $4.50
Temple Acolyte $0.40
Tithe $2.50
Vengeful Dreams $0.60
Wall of Omens $2.50
Weathered Wayfarer $2.00
Wing Shards $0.40
*Modified a couple prices I listed wrong*
I sure wouldn't mind knowing where you found birds of paradise for $3.50...
Hmm, I didn't even think about that when I grabbed the price. It was a less than NM copy from M10. They're still listing NM at $3.99
Birds of Paradise (2010 Core Set Singles)
This is my list of initial cuts. Most are either underwhelming in play or are UN cards (which I think should not be included in any 'essentials' list). If you disagree with any card, we can discuss it.
Everflowing Chalice** $1.00
Ivory Tower $1.50
Relic of Progenitus $0.40
Sphinx-Bone Wand $0.60
Bloodchief Ascension** $2.00
Faceless Butcher $0.25
Tainted Pact $0.60
Dizzy Spell $0.15
Flash $2.25
Greater Morphling $0.60
Johnny, Combo Player $1.75
Enlisted Wurm $0.50
Lorescale Coatl** $0.50
Land Aid 04 $0.15
Werebear $0.40
Wild Nacatl $0.60
Ancient Hydra $0.30
Chain Reaction** $1.00
Knollspine Dragon $1.00
Who/What/When/Where/Why $1.00
Invincible Hymn** $0.60
I think you did some good work here and most of these cards I can easily back, so good job.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrr
I'm not convinced about Ancient Hydra, but I admit I could be.
Knollspine Dragon? Seriously? The 7/5 flyer with no restrictions?
In the history of magic, 5 creatures have been printed with a power of 7 or more and flying on a seven mana creature 0 Lord of the Pit, GOliath Sphinx, Supreme Exemplar, Karrthus and Knollspine.
That makes Knollspine in rare company, and hows just how use a 7 power flyer is. Just play him and swing. And then, sometimes, not always ,but sometimes, he is massive card advantage too. Don;t look at him as an occasional Windfall for yourself with a body attached, look at him as a huge beater of significant proportions, and then sometimes can get you a passel of cards if you need it.
Knollspine Dragon... I had him in my deck for a while and never once was I happy to draw him. I only ever was able to use his ability to any advantage once (and then of course I had tapped 7 to play him so I couldn't use any of my new cards). When I did play him as just a body, he was not particularly helpful. On paper he seemed really cool. In practice I was sorely disappointed. So from personal experience I placed him on the list and I still feel the same, though it is not only my decision, I have voiced my opinion.
We may need to reconsider Tainted Pact and or Dizzy Spell later due to the likely lack of tutors.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrr
Other than that, I might like try out Ancient Hydra again. It's been a long time since it was used and it was always solid back in the day.
Also, I feel that Knollspine might be worth giving a bit more time. I admit that I never gave it much of a chance initially. I always thought of it for the card drawing part and it rarely paid off in that way. Might be worth another shot with a more open mind.
Did we ever actually work out what price to use? $5, $4, $3? I guess we should cut the $5 stuff and go for $4. $5 is too high, $3 is too low. So, meet in the middle at $4?
More stuff to take off the list:
Gilded Lotus - $5
Lotus Bloom - $5
Mangara's Tome - fragile
Demonic Consultation - Rarely will this ever work in highlander
Living Death - $5
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Stroke of Genius - $5
Bloodbraid Elf*- $4.50
Mirari's Wake - $5
Spiritmonger - $5
Sterling Grove - $5
Genesis - $5
Living Wish - $4.50
Scapeshift - $5
Tooth and Nail - $5
Marsh Flats - $10. For some reason I left that on our list.
Of the remaining list (about 270 cards counting the lands) I have a hard time pointing out anything that particularly sucks. This is definitely a good pile of cards.
That said, I'm starting to wonder if going down to $3 isn't the right move. It does give more design room. We can get closer to adding new stuff rather than just sifting through the Essentials leavings. Also it would help cull the list down a bit. Not a lot, just a bit. Just 30 cards. Please debate.
Akroma, Angel of Fury $3.50
Ancestral Vision $3.50
Birds of Paradise $3.50
Chameleon Colossus $3.50
City of Brass $3.50
Doran, the Siege Tower $3.50
Jenara, Asura of War** $3.50
Knight of the White Orchid** $3.50
Memory Jar $3.50
Nevinyrral's Disk $3.50
Oversold Cemetary $3.50
Pristine Angel $3.50
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir $3.50
Tinker $3.50
Yavimaya Hollow $3.50
Academy Ruins $4.00
Akroma, Angel of Wrath $4.00
Avatar of Woe $4.00
Bribery $4.00
Cold-Eyed Selkie $4.00
Cunning Wish $4.00
Dauntless Escort** $4.00
Decree of Justice $4.00
Eternal Dragon $4.00
Eternal Witness $4.00
Gifts Ungiven $4.00
Rout $4.00
Silvos, Rogue Elemental $4.00
Stoneforge Mystic** $4.00
Sylvan Library $4.00
We should also encourage more of our players to state an opinion so it isn't just Abe, Jason, and myself playing point/counterpoint.