If this had been a Christian sign...

we would have never heard the end of how they're picked on.


Unknown vandals unhappy about atheists' billboard in Charlotte, N.C., spray-painted "Under God" on the ad, the city's atheist association discovered Monday. The defaced message will remain in place until after July 4, the group reports, which is the soonest that workers can furnish a fresh billboard image. Here's how the vandalized billboard now looks:

The billboard reads, "One Nation Indivisible," which is the phrase preceding the 1954 insertion of the words "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance, reports the Charlotte Observer's Tim Funk. The billboard was erected on Billy Graham Parkway last week. (Graham is, of course, the state's famous evangelical preacher.)

Similar North Carolina ads have gone up in Asheville, Greensboro, Wilmington, Raleigh, and Winston-Salem as a Fourth of July project by the area's atheist association. The group has filed a police report and will replace the billboard.

?It was done by one or two people off on their own who decided their only recourse was vandalism rather than having a conversation,? Charlotte Atheists & Agnostics spokesman William Warren said. ?It does show how needed our message is. As atheists, we want to let people know we exist and that there?s a community here.? Warren told the Observer when the sign first went up that its location wasn't intended as a rebuke to the Rev. Graham.

He said the group has added more than 50 members since the ad went up. Atheist ads are often a target for vandals. Three of 10 atheist billboards erected in Sacramento, Calif., were defaced in February, and a series of atheist bus ads was recently vandalized in Detroit.

According to a 2007 study by the Pew Research Center, about 6 percent of Americans are secular. Less than 2 percent of all Americans identify as atheist.

An act of Congress changed the language of the Pledge of Allegiance during the height of the Cold War. Francis Bellamy, a Baptist minister and Christian socialist, composed the original pledge in 1892.

? Liz Goodwin is a national affairs reporter for Yahoo! News.

Atheist billboard defaced on N.C.'s Billy Graham Parkway - Yahoo! News

It doesn't matter who done it, it shouldn't have been done. Who knows it could have been the atheist group trying to stir up some publicity or it could have been a group of christians. I don't really think that its entirely possible for Christians and Atheists to sit down and have a meaningful conversation about religion or lack thereof due to a vast difference in opinion. Both are bull headed and are going to believe what they choose regardless of what the other says.

So atheists are going to vandalize their own sign, that they paid for and fought to get put up, to get more publicity which they already had? Hmmmm.


Anyway, it's a shame how narrow-minded people are in this nation, hate to see what would happen in this area if it were put up. I'd actually like to get some atheists/agnostic groups going in SWVA, there's quite a few and take part in something like this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by R13

So atheists are going to vandalize their own sign, that they paid for and fought to get put up, to get more publicity which they already had? Hmmmm.

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So you do not think that stuff like that does not happen? LOL While I have no clue if this group would do anything like that or not you have to admit that the situation has brought 10X more attention to there message

Quote:

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Originally Posted by R13

Anyway, it's a shame how narrow-minded people are in this nation, hate to see what would happen in this area if it were put up. I'd actually like to get some atheists/agnostic groups going in SWVA, there's quite a few and take part in something like this.

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Rember the Tops&Bottoms signs which were heavly criticized and eventualy lead to Dickenson Co passing a ordanance against marquee billboards in order to shut it down? Are you saying that it was "Closed Minded" of the area to act to have those messages removed? Or is it just "Closed Minded" when the message is not in line with your view of the world?

As for the atheists/agnostic group I say go for it there was a post on the Clintwood connection fourm CLINTWOOD CONNECTION a few weeks ago with a poster looking to start one up you could get in contact with that person and go to it......

I do have 1 question about such a group.....What is the point/goal? i.e. A church group would probably talk/study the Bible, a book club talks about differant books, Weight Watchers talks about loseing weight/selling there products.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by R13

So atheists are going to vandalize their own sign, that they paid for and fought to get put up, to get more publicity which they already had? Hmmmm.


Anyway, it's a shame how narrow-minded people are in this nation, hate to see what would happen in this area if it were put up. I'd actually like to get some atheists/agnostic groups going in SWVA, there's quite a few and take part in something like this.

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It would be a great way for them to "cast" suspicions on any Christian group. It is very possible.

If this had been a Christian sign we would never have heard about it, period. Christian signs and billboards are routinely and frequently vandalized, but it doesn't make the news.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Counts

So you do not think that stuff like that does not happen? LOL While I have no clue if this group would do anything like that or not you have to admit that the situation has brought 10X more attention to there message




Rember the Tops&Bottoms signs which were heavly criticized and eventualy lead to Dickenson Co passing a ordanance against marquee billboards in order to shut it down? Are you saying that it was "Closed Minded" of the area to act to have those messages removed? Or is it just "Closed Minded" when the message is not in line with your view of the world?

As for the atheists/agnostic group I say go for it there was a post on the Clintwood connection fourm CLINTWOOD CONNECTION a few weeks ago with a poster looking to start one up you could get in contact with that person and go to it......

I do have 1 question about such a group.....What is the point/goal? i.e. A church group would probably talk/study the Bible, a book club talks about differant books, Weight Watchers talks about loseing weight/selling there products.

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Not really, is it possible? Sure, anything is possible. But thinking about it, it sounds incredibly ridiculous. It's had national coverage already, vandalizing your own sign is already crazy enough. But after how much it costs, how much it will cost to replace and the fight that they had to do to get it up...I don't think they would ever do that, ever. It just makes no sense.


I just said there are a lot of agnostics/atheists in this area, though it's generally a very religious area and yes a lot are very close minded. Hell I had to do a survey for my religion class, 100 random people, pretty scary the way people think of non-believers around here. And no, I'm not just going by the survey to come to that conclusion.


Just like any group, getting together with others that have a lot in common, good place for debate. It'd be nice to do something like they did and have a small "chapter" group here in SWVA.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gotch

If this had been a Christian sign we would never have heard about it, period. Christian signs and billboards are routinely and frequently vandalized, but it doesn't make the news.

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Then how do you know about them?

well it wouldn't be hard to know about them if it was your church that had the signs vandalized or if you drove by a church and seen their signs vandalized..

If the tables were turned and it was a Christian sign that had been vandalized and made national news then it makes me wonder if your thinking would be different. I wonder if you would think that it was the Christians themselves that vandalized their own signs??

When you think about it what better way to gain more news coverage and publicity than to make it seem like the opposing side destroyed your sign and not to mention make Christians look like hypocrites.

Of course he would. But he put it as in it happens frequently, everywhere, but no one hears about it. So how would he know?

I would think it was wrong too, so no need to wonder.

I did think about it and it makes zero sense. If they were going to do that(this is assuming they're that stupid), don't you think they would have one ready? Well they didn't and this sign has to be up about a week with that painted on it. It really makes zero sense. They spend money to put it up, fight to get it up, then vandalize their same sign for nation attention they already had(which this would be negative attention) and now have to wait a week for it to be taken down and put up another that they have to pay for. Are you guys serious? Oh and...

...Atheist ads are often a target for vandals. Three of 10 atheist billboards erected in Sacramento, Calif., were defaced in February, and a series of atheist bus ads was recently vandalized in Detroit.

They do those too? LMAO Come on, let's be rational here.




And Christians need no help making their self look like hypocrites, many do it constantly on a daily basis, leaders of churches do it on a daily basis, hell turn it on TBN and watch those hypocrites and liars with their own show.

It's simply a matter of 5 decades of observation and a good memory. I remember the church sign just around the corner from here being spray painted at least three different times for instance. No esp or super google skills necessary to know it's true.

So is it that church 3 times in 50 years or frequently happening everywhere? Btw what was spray painted on it? Any atheist things?

How about the Tops and Bottoms signs be changed when they had Bible verses on them to "non-religious" text? Its not uncommmon. Its not an everyday thing either, but it happens.

When it was changed to "Oh hell, I like tits and beer"? That wasn't an attack or vandalism because it was religious.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by R13

So is it that church 3 times in 50 years or frequently happening everywhere? Btw what was spray painted on it? Any atheist things?

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That would be three times in 50 years.

So, going by the generally accepted estimate that there are about 300,000 Christian churches in the United states and assuming that each has seen a similar rate of vandalism then a little quick math would show an estimate of between 49 and 50 such incidents each day in the country.

Of course it would be reasonable to assume that the frequency of church sign vandalism would be less here than most places so that is probably a low number. It would also be safe to assume that there were more than 3 incidents within the 50 years, some of which I never noticed. That too would greatly increase the estimate.

What was painted on the sign is completely irrelevant as it can be reasonably assumed that the intent was to deface and negatively effect the message.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by R13

When it was changed to "Oh hell, I like tits and beer"? That wasn't an attack or vandalism because it was religious.

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What difference does it make? Who even knew this was about a lack of religion necessarily when it was vandalized by whoever. What if a muslim did it? We don't know, its just an assumption no matter what at this point. Vandalism is vandalism no matter what.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by R13

And Christians need no help making their self look like hypocrites, many do it constantly on a daily basis, leaders of churches do it on a daily basis, hell turn it on TBN and watch those hypocrites and liars with their own show.

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I'm not doubting or agreeing with this statement but what makes them hypocrites?

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Originally Posted by R13

When it was changed to "Oh hell, I like tits and beer"? That wasn't an attack or vandalism because it was religious.

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What part of that statement is religious? Just curious?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gotch

What was painted on the sign is completely irrelevant as it can be reasonably assumed that the intent was to deface and negatively effect the message.

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It's very relevant. There's a difference in someone doing it just because it was religious than some punks like the ones who spray paint buildings, rock sides, trains, trash cans etc. This with the atheist/agnostic group sign was obviously done because it was an atheist/agnostic sign. And since I've never seen a church sign vandalized, I can assume that all churches in the country have never been vandalized, so it equals to about 0 to 0 a year. That works both ways.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 1inStripes

What difference does it make? Who even knew this was about a lack of religion necessarily when it was vandalized by whoever. What if a muslim did it? We don't know, its just an assumption no matter what at this point. Vandalism is vandalism no matter what.

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Since North Carolina is overwhelming Christian, it's very likely it was a Christian. And the tops and bottoms sign wasn't even vandalism.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by collegetrumpet2010

I'm not doubting or agreeing with this statement but what makes them hypocrites?

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The picking and choosing of what they follow in the Bible is a good example. Another is being the most judging people I have ever came across.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cosmo99

What part of that statement is religious? Just curious?

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That's what it was changed to. They rearranged the letters to say that, along with the ones at the Coeburn Cinema and the "Coeburn : Home of Friendly People" to " Friend of Homely People" - which was my favorite btw.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by R13

The picking and choosing of what they follow in the Bible is a good example. Another is being the most judging people I have ever came across.

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Then don't watch it.

That's what it was changed to. They rearranged the letters to say that, along with the ones at the Coeburn Cinema and the "Coeburn : Home of Friendly People" to " Friend of Homely People" - which was my favorite btw.

So by saying that they rearranged the sign, they in fact altered the sign from its original message which indeed would be vandalism.
I wonder who "THEY" were? Atheists??? Because surely no Christian would vandalize their own sign just as no atheist would vandalize theirs......HMMMM.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cosmo99

That's what it was changed to. They rearranged the letters to say that, along with the ones at the Coeburn Cinema and the "Coeburn : Home of Friendly People" to " Friend of Homely People" - which was my favorite btw.

So by saying that they rearranged the sign, they in fact altered the sign from its original message which indeed would be vandalism.
I wonder who "THEY" were? Atheists??? Because surely no Christian would vandalize their own sign just as no atheist would vandalize theirs......HMMMM.....

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I don't think that's legally vandalism or if it's borderline. They were some young people pulling pranks all through coeburn, no atheists.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by R13

Since North Carolina is overwhelming Christian, it's very likely it was a Christian. And the tops and bottoms sign wasn't even vandalism.

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Very likely you could classify that the persons who done this may have a Christian background. That doesn't make them Christians. Also, its possible that the persons who done this were muslims, hindus, agnostics or whoever. We don't know since no one has come forward or been caught. How many people actually knew who even put the signs up at the time? I have yet to see where it said "sponsored by Atheists of NC" or something like that on the signs. It could have been someone who is very patriotic of any faith, or no faith.

Vandalism is the destruction property. Rearranging letters to change the words paid for on a billboard whether permanent or not, is vandalism.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by R13

It's very relevant. There's a difference in someone doing it just because it was religious than some punks like the ones who spray paint buildings, rock sides, trains, trash cans etc. This with the atheist/agnostic group sign was obviously done because it was an atheist/agnostic sign. And since I've never seen a church sign vandalized, I can assume that all churches in the country have never been vandalized, so it equals to about 0 to 0 a year. That works both ways.

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No, it has no relevance at all. In most cases when a church sign is vandalized it is with some sort of anti christian symbols or message anyway, but as for the point being argued it makes no difference.

durhamregion.com | Whitby church vandalized, now in flames

durhamregion.com | Whitby church sign vandalized

WMICentral - Church's sign of support for marriage law vandalized

Naples police repair vandalized sign at River Park church Naples Daily News

Minnesota Church's Pro-Life Memorial Vandalized in Recent Pro-Abortion Attacks

The Famuan - Church sign is vandalized

Church Rebounds from Hateful Message | NBC Dallas-Fort Worth

korean church vandalized with hate graffiti | angry asian man

Church Bus Vandalized | NBC Washington

HeraldNet: 3 Sultan churches vandalized

Jeff Carr, left, of Fountain Valley repaired this sign after it was vandalized in front of his home : News Photo

Another church vandalized; 3 teenage girls charged Local News The Herald, Sharon, Pa.

Church Vandalized with Swastika, Racial Slur|ABC News 4

Harrison Daily Times - Vandals deface church sign

Anti-abortion sign across from Milltown church vandalized | mycentraljersey.com | MyCentralJersey.com

Church groups help pastor fix sign Local News The Herald Bulletin

Sign Vandalized At Clover Road Baptist Church - Central Coast News Story - KSBW The Central Coast

Oops, there goes your zero estimate. Happens multiple times, every day.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by R13

I don't think that's legally vandalism or if it's borderline. They were some young people pulling pranks all through coeburn, no atheists.

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SO how do you know if the ones that vandalized the atheist sign were not some young people pulling pranks.....You don't know...

[QUOTE=R13;1828722]Another is being the most judging people I have ever came across.
QUOTE]


You know when you start spouting off about how ingot and closed minded people are that IS judging as well in fact IF you were to know NOTHING about a person other than that they were a Christian and/or a Republican I think you would have you mind 90% made up about that person......You sir seem to judge people at LEAST as much as the people you complain about.....If true that would make you a Hypocrite (I think that was another beef you had with some groups of people)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by R13

I don't think that's legally vandalism or if it's borderline. They were some young people pulling pranks all through coeburn, no atheists.

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They may not have been atheists. They may have just been some youth pulling pranks. However, their form of pulling pranks was vandalism. They were messing with public property.

If you don't classify it as vandalism then how do you classify it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by collegetrumpet2010

Then don't watch it.

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I don't agree w/everything R13 says, but your response there is a copout.

When it's shoved in people's faces, and people on TBN or the 700 Club (I'm looking at you Pat Robertson), try to shape my everyday life through political lobbying--it becomes an issue I can't ignore and I can't simply turn it off. When they're attacking people who don't watch them and/or don't agree with them, then it goes past the purpose of Christianity, which is a loose term when applied to what they're preaching vs what normally ends up being their actions. We can't just "not watch it" when there's real-world ramifications of these people's words and actions on our lives. They're lobbyists with a satellite dish to transmit their agenda to the masses.

And before you or someone else asks "what actions are you talking about?", I think it's re-damn-diculous to ask someone for money in return for your prayers b/c you supposedly have some kind of inner-pipeline to God. That's not what Christianity is supposed to be about, and just another instance of why I believe in faith WAY more than I do any world-based religion. Anything having to do with man is inherently corrupt.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CoeburnCane

I think it's re-damn-diculous to ask someone for money in return for your prayers .

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VERY true however I THINK that most are asking for the money to fund the lobbying you spoke of to try to make changes that (one would guess) that those sending the money in agree with......It is sort of like a Union in a place of bussness only on more of a volentary bases (dues pay for lobbiest that in theory grease the wheels of Gov in order to get favorable legaslation passed)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Counts

VERY true however I THINK that most are asking for the money to fund the lobbying you spoke of to try to make changes that (one would guess) that those sending the money in agree with......It is sort of like a Union in a place of bussness only on more of a volentary bases (dues pay for lobbiest that in theory grease the wheels of Gov in order to get favorable legaslation passed)

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I've thought about that too, but I don't like to think about it b/c to me that makes it even worse. If you're looking to get money from people to supply the cause they believe in--say so. Why do you have to go through all the bamboozle of saying "I'll pray for you in exchange for a $100 faith donation"? If you're really all about what Christianity is supposed to be about, then why pass yourself off as a false prophet only out for money to support a political cause?

Be a politician OR a man of God. Don't try to be both, I guess is what I don't like and can't respect.

All organized religion is to me anymore is snake-oil mixed with political agendas. Your own personal faith in a higher being is THE key. You believe in a preacher that told you something that God told him? You deserve to be damned in my eyes.

I'm not an atheist or agnostic. I'm anti-organized religion, but pro-personal faith, I guess is the terminology that I should use.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gotch

No, it has no relevance at all. In most cases when a church sign is vandalized it is with some sort of anti christian symbols or message anyway, but as for the point being argued it makes no difference.

durhamregion.com | Whitby church vandalized, now in flames

durhamregion.com | Whitby church sign vandalized

WMICentral - Church's sign of support for marriage law vandalized

Naples police repair vandalized sign at River Park church Naples Daily News

Minnesota Church's Pro-Life Memorial Vandalized in Recent Pro-Abortion Attacks

The Famuan - Church sign is vandalized

Church Rebounds from Hateful Message | NBC Dallas-Fort Worth

korean church vandalized with hate graffiti | angry asian man

Church Bus Vandalized | NBC Washington

HeraldNet: 3 Sultan churches vandalized

Jeff Carr, left, of Fountain Valley repaired this sign after it was vandalized in front of his home : News Photo

Another church vandalized; 3 teenage girls charged Local News The Herald, Sharon, Pa.

Church Vandalized with Swastika, Racial Slur|ABC News 4

Harrison Daily Times - Vandals deface church sign

Anti-abortion sign across from Milltown church vandalized | mycentraljersey.com | MyCentralJersey.com

Church groups help pastor fix sign Local News The Herald Bulletin

Sign Vandalized At Clover Road Baptist Church - Central Coast News Story - KSBW The Central Coast

Oops, there goes your zero estimate. Happens multiple times, every day.

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Kinda throws your 49/50 a day estimate out too when half say "this is the first time this has happened to us" or along those lines. One was posted twice btw, one was teenage girls who painted " i like mailboxes" on their mailbox, one wasn't even a church sign..they were prop 8 signs(which I don't have the least bit of sympathy for them) and there were I think 4 I counted that just had to do with race(race of the church leaders) and not religiously motivated. And the last one looked like nothing but a car that hit a sign. While some were disgusting and some were stupid, that doesn't back up anything you've said, as in the christian message/signs is attacked multiple times daily...esp. when your examples are spread out over years. Also that the claim that they aren't reported on or ignored, which you contradicted yourself.

I got links too though.

Atheist holiday display vandalized in Los Angeles

Atheist bus ads vandalized in Detroit

Missing atheist sign found in Washington state - CNN.com

Atheist Billboard Vandalized

Atheist sign stolen from Capitol rotunda - Springfield, IL - The State Journal-Register



There's a few I found.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cosmo99

SO how do you know if the ones that vandalized the atheist sign were not some young people pulling pranks.....You don't know...

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From what they did to the sign, there's a difference in like what one of the links gotch posted with 3 teengers spray painting a churches mailbox and dumb things like that...that changing the message of the sign, one was an attack against beliefs, the other wasn't.

[quote=Counts;1828756]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by R13

Another is being the most judging people I have ever came across.
QUOTE]


You know when you start spouting off about how ingot and closed minded people are that IS judging as well in fact IF you were to know NOTHING about a person other than that they were a Christian and/or a Republican I think you would have you mind 90% made up about that person......You sir seem to judge people at LEAST as much as the people you complain about.....If true that would make you a Hypocrite (I think that was another beef you had with some groups of people)

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It's not being a hypocrite when I don't claim to live by a book and religion that tells you not to do it. Of course it's judging, I judge people on their actions and their choices(and I'm not talking about my idea of bad actions and choices), not just because their Christian or whatever. Atheists/agnostics are the least trusted people in the country out of any group, for what reason? None, whatsoever, just ignorance. I have no problem judging someone for them being a hypocrite or for their ignorant views, but again, I don't pretend to follow a "Holy" book that tells me not to...which is hypocrisy and hypocrites go to hell just like those people they judge and deem hell-bound. And when I say people pick and choose what they want to follow from the Bible, that's not an opinion, that's a fact.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by collegetrumpet2010

They may not have been atheists. They may have just been some youth pulling pranks. However, their form of pulling pranks was vandalism. They were messing with public property.

If you don't classify it as vandalism then how do you classify it?

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No it's not, I classify vandalism like it is, damage or destruction to the property. That wasn't the case.



















Christianity has never been what it's supposed to, it's been distorted from day one. It's a good idea, has some nice feel-good stories to it, but if people were to take a long hard look at things...there would be a big drop off in membership, that goes for a lot of religions too. Which has been happening on a pretty high rate for the past 20 years, there's been about an 9% percent drop off in rates during that time...while atheism/agnosticism has doubled during that same time. A great amount of people have no clue about their own religion, they focus on what they want to and what the preacher tells them. I have many problems with Christianity, not in particular order.

1) It's interjection in politics and law, which it has no business in and I'd be pissed as a Christian when "sermons" turn into political speeches. I don't care the least bit what someone does or believes in, but when it dictates laws that effects everyone...that's when it's a problem. They have a political agenda, just like Cane was hitting on I believe. They try to control how people live because they think they're doing God's work, that they're doing us all a service saving us from hell. They pass along lies and propaganda, playing on peoples fears, like my favorite line "Well when prayer was taken out of school, that's when we went downhill.". Hell, prayer has never even been taken out of school. All Christianity has done in politics is expose how big of hypocrites they can be and take focus away from real issues....they've convinced the nation that two lesbians/gays eating wedding cake is the problem of the century. Do you think Jesus wants you to donate time in a soup kitchen or in some protest?


2) A lot of it's "leaders" are nothing more than the CEO of the multi-billion dollar industry that Christianity is. Salvation is just a DVD away. Let's put all of our trust into a guy wearing a four thousand dollar suit, that took a limo from his mansion to his mega-church:rolleyes:, yet that's what millions and millions do. When I see how much money is wasted on useless things that could be spent on what it's supposed to be, actually helping people.


3) The "holier than thou attitude", which ties into hypocrisy. While most pick what they want to follow from the Bible, they're the first to criticize someone, look down on them because they don't follow the verses they do or at all. They write them off as "bad eggs" that aren't "real" christians, whatever that means, but are in reality just as bad. Hell I think it's like 42% of Christians even attend church regularly, I wonder how many crack a Bible open out of those, then what few verses they focus on when they do? Like I said, some of the most judgmental people I have ever met, tell one you don't believe in God and see how accepting and Christ-like they act after that.


4) Just basically what fuels the entire religion, fear. From the stories, yes stories that haven't been proven, of God's wrath and what he'll do if you don't do what he says. If hell wasn't in the Bible, how many would still have this love for God? I'd say virtually no one, people believe in a religion because of fear of the unknown after death. It's an attempt to save their ass, plain and simple. With promises of something like heaven and the fear of something like hell, I can't blame them, along with the thought of getting to see your loved ones after they're gone. It's still fear nonetheless and it's played on to the fullest in Christianity to keep the masses believing. When someone is afraid, you can make them do anything you want and that's exactly what I think the creators of Christianity had in mind. Really it's what most religions have in mind and it's disgusting.


5) And one of my biggest problems, it doesn't really allow free-thought. Sure, the "free-will" line is repeated over and over, but it's a comfort thing more than anything...there's really no free-will. Of course it says that you have the "choice" to do what you want, but when it also says you'll spend eternity burning to death and be punished here on earth, it really ties your hands doesn't it? I think doubt can be the greatest thing there is, it comes from questioning which is the most important thing a person can do. Questioning isn't welcomed in Christianity, no matter how much someone wants to believe it is, it isn't. You're supposed to believe and that's that, there's no doubting God. And I believe that's by design, if people questioned it, they'd find a lot of things they don't like and that's why I believe what I believe today...questioning. I believe really all of them want to question, but like I said, can't and when they do, they ignore what it mostly and chalk it up to the "devil getting to you". Anything that shackles your mind that much, I could never be a part of. I also think it takes away from developing as a human being, in that you think you're dependent on some book and some invisible person to live and do good, everyone has that in them and doesn't need either. All of that "faith", is in someone else and something else, not where it needs to be...yourself. There's no crediting yourself or being responsible for yourself, it's either God did it or the devil did it, when it's all you and no one else.


6) Faith only goes so far for me, then logic takes over. There are an unreal amount of things that don't add up it's just fairytale-esque. Nothing at all adds up and it's not even close. I understand that as human-beings there's the urge to know all the answers, we don't like the unknown, so that's where the "god of the gaps" comes in. Plugging in God with things you don't understand or know, that's why people want to cling to religion. I can't accept that, way too much faith required to believe that, which the quote "faith is believing what you know isn't true" hits the nail on the head. If people were open minded, they'd see the same thing, that nothing at all adds up and that religions are borrowed from other religions..then when it starts to fade out, a new religion pops up, it's nothing more than a fad. A very large fad that does way more harm than good and costs lives. I'm open to the idea that there is a god, though I think it's very unlikely, but I'm almost certain it's not the Christian version. The story of jesus was passed around thousands of years before, along with other stories in the bible, there's no way it could be legit...it's not even original. I'm against most religions(except for really buddhism, if I had to pick one, that'd be what I would go with) but I have to put up with Christianity the most in this country with everything shoved down my throat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by R13

Christianity has never been what it's supposed to, it's been distorted from day one. It's a good idea, has some nice feel-good stories to it, but if people were to take a long hard look at things...there would be a big drop off in membership, that goes for a lot of religions too

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I agree with part 1. Man has messed up Christianity from day one with the picking and choosing.

Secondly, I'm a little concerned that people think of Christianity as "feel-good." That's where many Christians including myself have fallen and still continue to do so. Christianity's purpose is not to feel good nor is it to make people feel good. It's about living like Christ did along with serving and loving him, which is something I really haven't been doing lately. There's a big difference between serve and love. Example, by obeying your boss, you serve him/her but do you love that person?

God Bless your heart R13.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by R13

It's not being a hypocrite when I don't claim to live by a book and religion that tells you not to do it. Of course it's judging, I judge people

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What? One of you MAIN points against the "Small minded Christians in this area" is how judgmental they are however when a mirror is held up to you it turns out you "by your own definition" are just as small minded......IMHO a more "open minded" person might ponder the irony in that and question whether all these people and groups are actually not as different as i may have 1st thought and that all sides could take away lessons for the others that disagree with there world view.........A more "closed minded" person would say that the rules do not apply because....well because I am right and the others are just to ignorant and closed minded to see it to see it!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by R13

I have to put up with Christianity the most in this country with everything shoved down my throat

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And yes you do the same thing with your athilistic views.......You have to see that you lack of religion is in fact your religion and when you push that on others it is no different to them than a Jahova wittiness knocking at your door is to you



One last thing you mentioned that you are a fan of Buddhism

"Just as a candle cannot burn without fire, men cannot live without a spiritual life.
Buddha "

"Virtue is persecuted more by the wicked than it is loved by the good.
Buddha"

"You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger.
Buddha "

I am NO expert in Buddhist teachings but it seems to me that one would find peace in allowing others to follow there own beliefs in peace because attacking there views would do nothing but invite attack back on the attacker giving no one peace which is completely against what the Buddha seems to have been trying to teach

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Originally Posted by R13

Kinda throws your 49/50 a day estimate out too when half say "this is the first time this has happened to us" or along those lines. One was posted twice btw, one was teenage girls who painted " i like mailboxes" on their mailbox, one wasn't even a church sign..they were prop 8 signs(which I don't have the least bit of sympathy for them) and there were I think 4 I counted that just had to do with race(race of the church leaders) and not religiously motivated. And the last one looked like nothing but a car that hit a sign. While some were disgusting and some were stupid, that doesn't back up anything you've said, as in the christian message/signs is attacked multiple times daily...esp. when your examples are spread out over years. Also that the claim that they aren't reported on or ignored, which you contradicted yourself.

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If you were to ask the pastor of the church near my home if his sign has ever been vandalized he would probably say no, because it hasn't been while he was there, but it has been at least three times. My estimate stands.

LOL @ "YOU" not having any sympathy being a criteria for counting the event. That's pretty good. The sign was placed there by a church or church group and was attacked because of it's message by someone just like you who had no sympathy. A pretty good example in fact.

You apparently just glanced at some of the links. For instance the Korean church that had racial slurs painted on it's van also had things like "Jesus is dead" painted on it. Examples stand.

My search showed hundreds of examples, I just posted the first few.

If you will noticed all of these events were reported by the LOCAL media. My argument stands.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Counts

What? One of you MAIN points against the "Small minded Christians in this area" is how judgmental they are however when a mirror is held up to you it turns out you "by your own definition" are just as small minded......IMHO a more "open minded" person might ponder the irony in that and question whether all these people and groups are actually not as different as i may have 1st thought and that all sides could take away lessons for the others that disagree with there world view.........A more "closed minded" person would say that the rules do not apply because....well because I am right and the others are just to ignorant and closed minded to see it to see it!





And yes you do the same thing with your athilistic views.......You have to see that you lack of religion is in fact your religion and when you push that on others it is no different to them than a Jahova wittiness knocking at your door is to you



One last thing you mentioned that you are a fan of Buddhism

"Just as a candle cannot burn without fire, men cannot live without a spiritual life.
Buddha "

"Virtue is persecuted more by the wicked than it is loved by the good.
Buddha"

"You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger.
Buddha "

I am NO expert in Buddhist teachings but it seems to me that one would find peace in allowing others to follow there own beliefs in peace because attacking there views would do nothing but invite attack back on the attacker giving no one peace which is completely against what the Buddha seems to have been trying to teach

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When you cut the quote down and don't finish it, but what did the rest of that quote say?

on their actions and their choices(and I'm not talking about my idea of bad actions and choices), not just because their Christian or whatever.

Now try to say that's being small minded, you cut off the quote purposely to make it fit with what you're saying. I said I just them on their actions, not assumptions like the ones I'm talking about, big difference.


Of course it's my belief and how am I pushing it down anyone's throats? Have I said their wrong for what they believe? No. Do I try to pass laws that effect peoples personal lives negatively because I think I'm right? No. Do I tell people they're going to hell for not believing what I do? No. Do I look down people because they believe in God? No. Do I think people who believe in God are automatically bad, untrustworthy people because they believe in God? No.

So I'd really like to know how it's being shoved down anyone's throats? Do I state my opinion? Sure I do, that's not shoving it down anyone's throats, but those examples above are.





I'll say this again, I don't know how you guys manage to keep getting that I have a problem with what people believe personally. I do not care what God people believe in, don't care, let them worship a cat for all I care. I DO NOT care. My problem is when they attempt to control others lives with things like legislation and putting religion in public places where it has no business. I listed what my problems are with the religion and how some act within that religion, but do I have a problem with anyone believing in God? Absolutely not. They're the only ones I've seen who have the problem with others not believing what they do.

And I like Buddha(the original buddha) because he taught all about being good to others(like Jesus), but also promoted free-thought. That only believe something if you think it's right and agree with it, not just because he or anyone else said. Also there's not the hypocrisy and it isn't an industry like other religions like Christianity. There's no real heaven or hell either, so people who follow it, actually do so because they want to...not to cover their bases after death. He also doesn't demand credit and praise, it's the perfect religion really. And he's not a God or doesn't claim to be, there's no worshiping, it's all about being a better person.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gotch

If you were to ask the pastor of the church near my home if his sign has ever been vandalized he would probably say no, because it hasn't been while he was there, but it has been at least three times. My estimate stands.

LOL @ "YOU" not having any sympathy being a criteria for counting the event. That's pretty good. The sign was placed there by a church or church group and was attacked because of it's message by someone just like you who had no sympathy. A pretty good example in fact.

You apparently just glanced at some of the links. For instance the Korean church that had racial slurs painted on it's van also had things like "Jesus is dead" painted on it. Examples stand.

My search showed hundreds of examples, I just posted the first few.

If you will noticed all of these events were reported by the LOCAL media. My argument stands.

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Your estimate never stood in the first place, since you were basing it off of 1 church, estimates don't work like that. Doesn't stand now, didn't stand before. Pastors know about what's happened to the church beforehand anyway, so I doubt he would have no knowledge.


It's not a church sign, it's prop 8 signs that the church bought and put up everywhere throughout the area. I don't count it because it promotes bigotry and I don't really care about any church who promotes that. Bad things happen to people like that.

I read them all, you cherry picked the Korean one because that's the only one that backs up what you're saying. Even though it was more racially motivated more than anything, when "Chink Mobile" is written on it.


So what? All of the stories on both sides are by local media, the national media chooses to pick up some stories and some don't. Don't sit here and pretend that Christian incidents never make the national news either. Your claim was that they never make the news, period...that's obviously wrong. Play that whole Christians are the victim thing all you want, doesn't change reality.

My "estimate' started out as sarcasm directed at your incredulous attitude toward anything that doesn't fit your world view, no matter how reasonable and obviously true it is. Despite that, it is probably fairly accurate.

No, pastors do not usually know much at all about minor bits of history surrounding the building that they serve in. That's an absurd claim.

The only reality you see is the one that fits perfectly within your own ideology.

Okay, started as a joke, you still stand by it, it's still wrong.

That's not really something minor, it's not like who sat in the 3rd row, April 14th, 2002. That would be minor. Filling a pastor in about the church he's going to be leading about several vandalism incidents is pretty common I would say.

Or just the way things work and who the victims usually are and who's trying to control things.

Yeah, I stand by it. I think it's probably a low estimate.

No, I doubt anyone ever told the current pastor at the church around the corner. "You do realize that in 1969, 1974 and 1987 someone spray painted your sign don't you!!!!!!?????" "Be afraid, be very afraid!!!!" Get real.......

How many post do you see from people professing to be Christians announcing how much they hate atheists and agnostics? You have developed a radical, irrational hatred of Christians, and you want them to know it.

I think it's high.

Of course they wouldn't say something stupid like that. But saying "We've had a history of vandalism." is extremely logical thing to tell him. Yeah, get real. Though the fact that the last act was so long ago, it makes your point even more irrelevant.

And when have I ever said anything to that nature? That's right, I haven't. Never said anything of the sort and nothing I've said about Christianity has been off base.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by R13

When you cut the quote down and don't finish it, but what did the rest of that quote say?

on their actions and their choices(and I'm not talking about my idea of bad actions and choices), not just because their Christian or whatever.

Now try to say that's being small minded, you cut off the quote purposely to make it fit with what you're saying. I said I just them on their actions, not assumptions like the ones I'm talking about, big difference.


Of course it's my belief and how am I pushing it down anyone's throats? Have I said their wrong for what they believe? No. Do I try to pass laws that effect peoples personal lives negatively because I think I'm right? No. Do I tell people they're going to hell for not believing what I do? No. Do I look down people because they believe in God? No. Do I think people who believe in God are automatically bad, untrustworthy people because they believe in God? No.

So I'd really like to know how it's being shoved down anyone's throats? Do I state my opinion? Sure I do, that's not shoving it down anyone's throats, but those examples above are.





I'll say this again, I don't know how you guys manage to keep getting that I have a problem with what people believe personally. I do not care what God people believe in, don't care, let them worship a cat for all I care. I DO NOT care. My problem is when they attempt to control others lives with things like legislation and putting religion in public places where it has no business. I listed what my problems are with the religion and how some act within that religion, but do I have a problem with anyone believing in God? Absolutely not. They're the only ones I've seen who have the problem with others not believing what they do.

And I like Buddha(the original buddha) because he taught all about being good to others(like Jesus), but also promoted free-thought. That only believe something if you think it's right and agree with it, not just because he or anyone else said. Also there's not the hypocrisy and it isn't an industry like other religions like Christianity. There's no real heaven or hell either, so people who follow it, actually do so because they want to...not to cover their bases after death. He also doesn't demand credit and praise, it's the perfect religion really. And he's not a God or doesn't claim to be, there's no worshiping, it's all about being a better person.

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Look I can only look at what you yourself have posted in the past in order to push your view (And it does come off to me at least no different than a regular church goer telling me i need to get saved)

I THINK it can be safely assumed that you do not "KNOW the actions and choices" of all or even most of the Christian people in SWVA because in all honestly that very idea is laughable so YOU make a blanket JUDGMENT of them based on your pre-conseved ideas and that is a VERY human thing to do I think everyone to some extent trys to rationalize the world to fit with what they believe to be true but you can never truly grow as a person till you can see these things from several points of view because when you do that you realize that there are very few 100% right or wrong issues in the world and that the truth is somewhere in between a vast majority of the time.

If you truly do not believe in a god I can understand that you see the religious majority in our area as a a silly bunch of Dogma following sheep that can be used as fodder for those who crave power and are willing to exploit those people........But until you can understand that Someone who is tring to follow the Christian teaching has a need to share there faith with others (Which will bug you as much as them hearing your beliefs in no god will bug them) you will never fully be able to understand the situation.