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I'm getting ready to rebuild the xovers in my 19s and it looks like the woofer and horn wires have been replaced along the way. I'm thinking of replacing all the internal wiring with OCC when I pull the crossovers.
So the question is, what was the original wire gauge in the 19s? Or if there is an agreed upon better gauge than original, what is it and will it fit through the original spring posts?
OCC Orange County Choppers?
I haven't seen any "fancy" wire in Altec boxes, has anyone else?
Ohno Continuous Cast or UP-OCC Ultra Pure Ohno Continuous Casting. Very good cable and hookup wire and the price has gone down over the years.
I used the THX approved fine strand copper wire for all my rebuild work,, never heard a bad note yet,, :2thumbsup:
Derry
Just go buy some wire made out of copper in a gauge that's easily handled and connected to the terminals. Don't get carried away with size.
I used to buy "Marine" wire cause it very flexible - made for snaking thru tight spots in boats - and has lots of small strands.
No idea if it sounds any different, I just like it. =)
I can probably name 20 things that are more important to your speakers than the internal wiring. 16ga lamp cord is all that's needed. Anything more than that and you are likely satisfying your mind more than your ears.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal Weldon
Thanks Cal........ my statement was a little less direct than yours :-)
I'd probably go with 14 gauge myself, but not lamp cord. I'd rather use the stuff that would normally be run through conduit. To me, lamp cord looks like someone stole the cord off a lamp :-) ....... in other words it just doesn't look right, to me. I also would rather not have the + and - wires bundled together inside the cabinet. I'd rather just run my wires and then be able to tack it down. I re-wired an old Peavey cabinet with 4 12" drivers....... wired series/parallel and it was a pain trying to make it look neat with the two pairs such together. I pulled some of it apart, and I hated the way it looked.
Who's to say that a little series R from the small, stock wiring wasn't part of the formula? ;)
I have no issues with anybody's opinion on wire...as long as it's posted as an opinion...
Anyway, count me in the "any decent wire" category, with one caveat..Some cheap wire has sulfur in the insulation and turns green with use.:mad:
A reputable manufacturer should be fine, but watch out for cheap imported stuff.
Oh boy, another speaker cable thread. Attitudes toward loudspeaker damping, amplifier output impedance etc. have shifted drastically over the years, so it is useful to recall a quote from the good old days, when many of the speaker components we revere were invented. The article titled "Improved Loudspeaker System for Theaters" was written by J.B. Lansing and J.K. Hilliard in 1945, and in it these gentlemen described the new Altec Lansing Voice of the Theater systems:
"Sufficient damping of the vibrating elements of the units are provided in the magnetic circuit so that it is not necessary to provide additional damping from the driving amplifiers. In the past it has been customary to adjust the amplifier output impedance to a value of approximately one half to one third of the average loudspeaker impedance. Improved performance can be obtained with the new loudspeaker when the amplifier and loudspeaker impedances are approximately equal."
Now the network impedance of the VOTT systems was twelve ohms, and I'm not sure I know of an amplifier with that high of an output impedance old or new. At the time Altec was mostly building push pull 6L6G amps- not sure about the extent of negative feedback. I do know that my brother the electronics whiz explained to me long ago that energy transfer in a transmission line is theoretically 100% when source and load impedances are matched, and efficiency suffers and reflections and standing waves in the line ensue to the extent that impedances are mismatched. This is completely different from the modern concept of high "damping factor", where the amplifier output impedance is thought to ideally be only a tiny fraction of load impedance.
In my years of experimenting with mostly highly efficient horn drivers, I have found that using fine gauge copper magnet wire, 26 gauge mostly, provides the best sound. Detail, clarity, soundstage all improve. Try it, you'll like it! Heavy "audiophile" cable on highly efficient speakers just slows down and mucks up the sound. Not sure of all the reasons for this, but I have heard the bad results on many occasions. Especially when using high damping factor solid state amplifiers, adding an ohm or two of series resistance in the speaker line usefully loosens the death grip of the amp on the speaker, with much improved natural sound resulting. With careful shopping this wire can be yours for a dollar or two per mile, which is why you will seldom hear cable vendors singing its praises. I don't recommend longer than necessary runs, but 20' of #26 on a compression driver is just fine.
Thanks for your wisdom, here, Steve. I am seeing similar results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Schell
Perhaps the folks at Audioquest had Mr. Wismer as a teacher.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Altec Best
how do you handle the pair of 26 gauge magnet wire when the run is several feet,,?? do twist it or make separate parallel runs,,??
want to give a try on my A7s but running behind a wall presents some difficulty to not nick the coating,,
appreciate any direction,,
Derry
You must have different lamp cord in your country. The stuff here is just fine. Inexpensive yes, cheap no. It doesn't look as pretty as the boutique cable but the last time I checked electrons don't have eyes and don't care, only the listener did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altec Best
Okay, now we're getting somewhere. If the original gauge is 20 or 22 and Schell recommends 26 magnet wire...
So I think I'm going to replace the internals with OCC in the 20s. I'm using Anticables' OCC magnet wire for speaker cables and really like them but they're about a 14 gauge. If I can find epoxied OCC magnet/transformer wire in 22, 24 or 26 I'll just wire everything up from amp to drivers in the same material.
Anyone have a source? Partsconnexion has OCC in fine gauge bare wire or with teflon or PVC dielectric but not the red epoxied OCC.
Transmission lines - or not?
See here:
``Long'' and ``short'' transmission lines : TRANSMISSION LINES
Cheers, Marshall.
Hey Cal, The lamp cord around here has been really cheap almost fire hazard cheap.I've seen more lamp cord wire shorted than any other wire cable.I won't use it ever.Time to move on from this wire thread.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal Weldon
Westend9, Mr. Wismer may have had it exactly right, I don't know. I have read that higher frequencies travel along the outside ("skin") of the wire while low frequencies travel at a slower speed through the wire core, causing "time smear" and consequent damage to all those golden eared audiophile subtleties. I have also heard RF circuit designers opine that this is pure BS, that skin effect can be a factor in antenna designs and such, but that audio frequencies are all very slow by comparison, and it is all traveling at nearly light speed anyway, so any variation in speed vs. frequency would be negligible. I don't know about all of this, but have noticed that fine magnet wire sounds mo' better to me and so I go with what works.
Derry I used to route the #26 across the ceiling between amplifier and speaker, spacing the two leads a couple of inches apart and holding it in place with transparent tape. Believe me, this wigs people out at hi fi shows. More recently I have taken to spinning it into a twisted pair with a drill, with no apparent sonic losses and perhaps a bit less noise induced. I live across the street from a Boeing plant, so there are all sorts of interesting EMI and RFI noises passing through. I now run the leads on the ground, covering it with carpet samples in foot paths. My speaker business partner and I have taken to covering the wire with black woven nylon jacketing and shrink wrapped terminations, which looks appropriately "high end" at shows.
Let me stress that I am not saying this fine stuff is for everybody. I am running field coil compression driver horn systems with around 108dB sensitivity, so the current flowing in my speaker cables is minimal. I drive my horn subwoofer from a separate SS amplifier, so I "man up" and use something like 18 gauge for this!
Timoteus, I bought an assortment of fine magnet wire sizes on 10lb. rolls year ago on ebay. It may still be a good source for surplus wire, maybe not OCC but good sounding stuff, If you don't have any luck finding what you need, let me know and I'll set you up.
Thanks, Marshall, that was a good read.Quote:
Originally Posted by mah
We're on the same page regarding skin effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Schell
In the manner of hookup wire, I've noticed little difference between teflon jacketed OFC wire and common copper. Case specific examples are rare, depicting inductive noise interference in components and short runs in other uses.
I have found a local electronics surplus distributor that sells all manner of wire and other bits for low prices. I would imagine that any decent sized city has at least one of these around.
[quote=Steve Schell;1831755]Thanks Steve having said that I just tried to explain how it was explained to me.Right or Wrong I don't know. Difference so slight that us regular folks(Mediocre Ears)couldn't tell the difference.Quote:
Westend9, Mr. Wismer may have had it exactly right, I don't know. I have read that higher frequencies travel along the outside ("skin") of the wire while low frequencies travel at a slower speed through the wire core, causing "time smear" and consequent damage to all those golden eared audiophile subtleties
And that is what I was going to say that you should use what is best for you.I chose to delete my posts because I didn't want to get in the middle of another wire "WAR".I just wished you were here more often.As I really enjoy your posts and I can learn quite a bit from your obviously extensive wisdom. http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc.../2010/08/1.gifQuote:
I don't know about all of this, but have noticed that fine magnet wire sounds mo' better to me and so I go with what works.
Agreed ! I'm driving my speakers at the moment with SS 200 watts per channel,for me the 26 gauge is too thin I think, so "Manning Up" was necessary http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc.../2010/08/1.gif.The 26 gauge would be perfect for tubes with say 20-30 watt.I don't know how many of us are using field coil drivers, as they are quite expensive.My point was for fine stranded wire as opposed to solid wire really, regardless of gauge AWG.IMHO :)Quote:
Let me stress that I am not saying this fine stuff is for everybody. I am running field coil compression driver horn systems with around 108dB sensitivity, so the current flowing in my speaker cables is minimal. I drive my horn subwoofer from a separate SS amplifier, so I "man up" and use something like 18 gauge for this!
Thanks again Steve !! Kind Regards ~ John
FWIW many speakers can benefit from some series resistance. I prefer using larger wire, though it isn't necessary to go crazy, most people are into "overkill".
I then add series resistance in different amounts, it would take a lot of different wire sizes to try that with wire.
Bottom line is what works for you is right.
Hey O.G. I have some fancy cables the size of a garden hose for ya! ;)
Silly big blue things. They were a gift. I don't use them.
It wouldn't be Monster Cable would it! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Panomaniac
Not on your life! I refuse to buy or even own that stuff. Real gangsters, those guys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by timoteus
I think this cabel is better than lampcord http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc.../2010/08/4.jpg
Ya but the delivery charge is a bit much. And you'd have to recalculate your box size and tuning with that stuff in there. ;)
These products are handy when there are no sources of energy available in space that you want the desired lighting. This does not mean that you have enough with a dark corner or surface.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathewdrey
This looks like another spam post. Matt you have 2 posts here, the first was deleted by Todd just a couple hours ago and now this one.PM sent !
Hey, a good friend of mine has a Cat D7H LGP with a vibratory/impact cable spade mounted on it. He can properly install that cable for ya, up to 8 feet deep, even in medium/soft rock.:DQuote:
Originally Posted by AltecLansingFan