Just to let any Aussie members know...I have just listed my 19's for sale in the classified section. Hopefully someone here can look after them before I put them on E-Bay.
Thanks,
John
Printable View
Just to let any Aussie members know...I have just listed my 19's for sale in the classified section. Hopefully someone here can look after them before I put them on E-Bay.
Thanks,
John
Hey John are they still for sale.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by J Henry
AB, I suppose I should give some background to this story for the benefit of others.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altec Best
Over a 12 month period I have been putting together a set of custom speakers loosely based on a set of Klipsch La Scala's, with my 19's as a reference to guide me, as I have always loved the sound of vintage Altec's.....I was hoping to build something better.
Initially they were stock LS & the 19's just blew them away & so I began my quest to improve them. Over the next 12 months I made substantial & expensive changes to them to the point where they weren't really LS any more & finally they began to overtake the 19's. (I'm talking timber tractrix horns, custom crossovers, new drivers, changes to cabinet design, etc).
Eventually the 19's were relegated to the spare room & hence the decision to sell them, even though they have a special place in my heart.
I'd tried all the normal upgrades & did the horn dampening, replaced the L Pads with fixed resistors, replaced the foam surrounds, but still they weren't cutting it.
Prior to my decision to sell them I had ordered new capacitors & so they duly arrived & I put them with the 19's to pass on to the new owner. AB tactfully hinted that I should try the new caps before letting them go, but I was reluctant. Because I had done so much upgrading & tinkering over the last year, maybe I was tired of the whole process...I don't know. Anyway, something just said to me....give these old girls another go.
THESE 19'S AREN'T GOING ANYWHERE!!
This is the single biggest difference I have made to these speakers.
And how would I describe it?
Before they were that typical Altec vintage sound....warm, a bit rough around the edges, yet still engaging & somehow real. Certainly not what a hi- fi addict would call quality sound.
Now the bass still has that warm quality to it (which I love) & that typical Altec growl, the mids & tops are astonishing. They have a quality to them now that I have never heard before, a real clarity & crispness without any glare or harshness. And an inner detail that I believe you can only get with top quality drivers performing at their best....& these are certainly now performing at their best.
Compared to my past reference they are another leap forward again...which says wonders for the gains made.
So, thanks to all those on this forum who provided some good tips & especially to AB for making me persevere & getting me a brand new pair of Altec Model 19's!
Thanks John !!! As a model 19 owner with the same X-over upgrade I just thought that you should really give yourself the opportunity, the pleasure of hearing the 19 with the 19 X-over on steroids :D.As I too was blown away by the clarity and presence of detail that I just thought I had to do my best to try and convince you to do the upgrade since you already had the caps in hand.I remember how I felt when I put the rebuilds into them and just wanted to pass a long that feeling.:2thumbsup: It is just such a simple way of getting the most out of them.I just thought I would give you a few subtle hints ;) CONGRATULATIONS !! Kind Regards ~ JohnQuote:
Originally Posted by J Henry
Wow, cool! Thanks for the update JH.
So, ultimately, highly modified PA speakers could not "best" Altec's flagship hifi speaker?:2thumbsup:
Whodathunkit?:doh:
Why am i not surprised?:snickerpup:
Just out of curiosity what caps did you order and where from?
Anthony
He used Solens. Hey John now just put a few watts into them and watch them really sing. ;)
Hey John did you have to change any of the resistors or was that just the caps and ground lug bypass ???
Well I was totally floored....to be fair though, the modified LS has more accurate, cleaner, & punchier bass, which I still like very much. It's just that it's hard to go past that Altec growl. The mids & tops of the 19's however are on a different level again.Quote:
Originally Posted by bowtie427ss
I used Solen 400V from Parts Express, the same as AB. Good service & reasonable shipping rates to Australia. You could go the boutique cap route, but many knowledgeable people I have discussed this with tell me that the difference would be minimal, if even noticeable. (& the price could be up to 4,5 or 6 times more). It cost me A$100, including shipping to get these, so fantastic value.Quote:
Originally Posted by magnarc
Be that as it may, as you can tell, I'm more than happy with these.
I didn't change any of the resistors, except to put fixed resistors in place of the L Pads, (I'm running 3 ohm & 10 ohm) I figured they shouldn't deteriorate with age, although I'm prepared to be corrected by anyone with more experience with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altec Best
And yes, the ground lug bypass.
Don't worry, I've hit them with a fair whack of power & they are just sooooo clean.
Just beautiful. I'm still bringing out material to listen to where I'm finding I'm hearing things I never knew were on there. These speakers now have such a palpable sound it's amazing.
I didn't want to say "I told you so" but hey "I told you" :D I told you they get better a lot better. :2thumbsup:
Well John 2 of the 4 resistors were out of spec on mine one of the 3.9 ohms and the 3 ohm needed to be replaced so I went ahead and changed them all.They are fairly cheap.Quote:
Originally Posted by J Henry
Good info...thanks John.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altec Best
I'll go ahead & replace them when I get a chance.
AB and John, I noticed that Parts E. doesn't have exact values for all of the capacitors in the Solen brand. Do you mind stating again exact values you have used? Thanks.
I have tried some other caps that I didn't quite care for but now would like to try the Solens. So far the biggest improvement was connecting the ground lugs together. Now I think it would be a good experiment to try the Solens. I need some for another project as well.
It seems that many of the original Altec caps have degraded. Has anybody actually measured a bad original Altec cap?
I have measured old Altec caps and have yet to find one that was out more than 10% which I am guessing is the rated tolerance anyhoo. This includes a set of XO's that came with the 604's that had all been recapped (with nice big shiny yellow ones) without removing the old caps. So was it a waste? Dunno, to me it seems like I have an extra set of caps now.Quote:
Originally Posted by rontec
IMHO it is preferable to keep the values as close as possible Example: Nobody makes a 21 uF so to keep the values close I would use a 10uF and an 11uF to reach 21uF instead of using a 20uF and a 1uF i think it is best to keep them (Values) close to one another.For the 16uF use two 8uF's and so on.If you can't get a 6uF use two 3uF's and the last one use one 8uF or two 4uF's.Quote:
Originally Posted by rontec
Actually back in the 70's I think the tolerances were +-20% not good and I think they are a much better cap today.How else do you explain the improvement and I'm not talking about slight improvement, leaps and bounds over the old ones.Caps life span is approx. 20 years give or take a year.I'm completely thrilled with the difference this is how Altec intended the 19's to sound "No Doubt" and what a beautiful system they put together in the Model 19 :2thumbsup:
(Parts-Express or Madisound) if I remember correctly I think I had to get a few of the parts at Madisound as PE didn't have all I needed at the time.
Please post back after all upgrades done John and I already know the outcome but would be informative for other folks.;)
Rontec,Quote:
Originally Posted by rontec
You need 6, 8, 16 & 21 capacitors......1 of each total value.
I used 2 x 3 for the 6's, 4.7 & 3.3 for the 8's, 16 for the 16's & a 10 & an 11 for the 21.
These were all available from PE. I used 400V Solens.
This will make the biggest difference you can make to your 19's....way above all the other usual mods.
Now to get the new resistors...& I wish I had done this before as they are now buried underneath the new caps. Ah well....the things we do for old Altecs!!!
Thanks everyone for the info. I'll post later what I find out with the Solens.
Exactly....Maybe I should order resistors now too! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by J Henry
Yes get them now they are like a couple dollars a piece.The resistors go in first,actually do the ground lug bypass first then the resistors and then the caps.The caps are a lot larger than the originals and will have a hard time getting them in as John is finding out.You really only need 250v but I used 400v as well, the originals are only 100v.Quote:
Originally Posted by rontec
Can't wait to see another satisfied customer ;) :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by J Henry
Just one more question then, how are they wired into the circuit when you use two to create a specific value?
Not sure whether you call this series or parallel, but you just solder one to the original connections & then just solder the other one to the same connections. That is, solder both the 2 smaller values to the same original connections to get the original larger value.....hope that's clear.Quote:
Originally Posted by magnarc
Yep that's clear, I sorta figured that would be the way.
I'd call that parallel....
Thanks!
Many cap fanatics would disagree with the above. Use 1 big value and 1 or 2 smaller ones. Try to keep close to 10:1 ratio or better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altec Best
No idea if it makes a bit of difference, but it's what I generally do. Often cheaper and smaller that way, too. That's what I like about it.
[quote=Panomaniac;1832481]I think that line says it all.;)Quote:
Many cap fanatics would disagree with the above.
I'm very happy with the result in 19 X-over upgrade.
One other thing John in my X-over upgrade I actually used a 12uF and a 9 uF to reach the 21 uF value.See this is what happens when you get someone else to build them for you.You can't remember crap !!! :D
Mine were built by member "Dgwojo" Dave did a fantastic job on them I might add.
I'm just the guy who paid for all the parts and labor and gratuities quite Happily I might add as well !!! :)
I'm probably giving away the ranch on this but Parts Connexion has Axon True Caps on sale, 50% off. They are made by the same Mfg. that makes the Solen film caps. I have used them in crossover networks and a DIY preamp. They worked well for me:Axon true Cap Good luck with the 19 upgrades!
One other thing Pano I spoke to Dave today about it as he explained to me and said this is how it was explained to him by Madisound.Quote:
Originally Posted by Panomaniac
Madisound said they were against large differences in values,I think they claimed that it caused different signal paths which meant the signal wasn't getting through the caps at the same time.They also advised against small value bypass caps for the same reason.Dave said he has the email at work that he can retrieve for me from work this week coming up. :) I don't know but they sure sound good to me.(19 X-over)
Yeah, who knows? I've heard the exact same argument, but in favor of large differences. Go figure.
That's either a used car salesman talking or someone is simply having fun and pulling your leg. While I don't know the answer, my gut tells me two values as close together as possible would be the right way to go. In theory it shouldn't make one spit of difference. If you wish to have a water flow of 20 lites per minute it doesn't matter whether you have two 10 litre gates or one at 19 and one at 1. Neither water molecules nor electrons care, only the human pondering it does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altec Best
Theories will fly fast and far, but has anyone actually measured it? I doubt we will know until we see some good measurements.
Has anyone ever seen one? I may be able to get someone to actually measure this with the right equipment. No idea if we'd actually find anything, tho.
Measured what, the total capacitance when combining caps? Of course, that happens at every stage of the XO build. If you're asking about the speed of electrons then I am guessing we're having a little Sunday fun are we?
Hey I just read your article about judging the PE speaker contest over at that "other" site. That was nicely written and in the true Pano style. Now I wish I had grabbed me a plane ticket.
I doubt it since this is 2010 and we don't have any real data that tells me there is no real way to get it.Or we would have some facts on the issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Panomaniac
I think it makes sense though so i would like to keep cap values as close as possible.Do we have any reasons to keep the values far. If so what ??? ;)
Then at the end of the day what do we have personal preferences,preferences,preferences !!! Who's right, I say do what works for you !!
I have a pair of 19 X-overs will values far apart and they sound like crap,soon to be redone with close values this is a spare pair i have was trying different caps Sonicaps and Daytons.Maybe the lamp cord had something to do with it. ;) :D
The methods of "getting it" certainly exist*. Problem is, the only market for that particular info is retrofit/DIY, as manufacturers don't need to parallel caps to get the value they seek. They either design around available values or spec a bulk order for the value they need.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altec Best
*If there's any doubt about the ability of a cap mfr to measure and quantify everything you ever wondered about and then some, read a few of the tech papers from just one such mfr;
Technical Papers
It won't be the values that sound like crap, that makes no difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altec Best
That is something that can make a difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altec Best
Funny guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altec Best
No electron speed Cal. Some folks think that there may be phase issues and who knows what else. I've seen no proof or even math backing that up, so I really don't know. I did put in a request for some tests with a buddy who has a very fancy LCR bridge.
I just use the big cap + small cap because it allows me to fine tune. Start with a lower value than needed an then add until you get what works best. I rarely know exactly what value is needed before hand.
Thanks for the kind words on the article. It was a fun trip. A lot of very good building going on.
Midwest Audio Fest - diyAudio
Would be very interested in your impressions of the different caps John, as I'm thinking of doing this myself. I was actually thinking of Sonicaps or Jantzen Superior Cross Caps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altec Best
Agreed,also I think the MFG are more interested in custom orders for caps too.They charge quite a bit for custom values.Good point Brad ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by bfish
Hey Cal I was Just Kidding !! I figured you would see the lamp cord on the X-overs so I just put that in there.:p No Harm !! To be honest I have to really run down the problem because those X-overs are really bad something is obviously wrong can't be just the caps.When I get to the bottom of it will advise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal Weldon
Pano was a very cool article Top-Notch :2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Panomaniac
I really don't know one way or the other on the difference in values keeping them close or far. I guess no one has ever really measured to find out one way or the other.But I think this is great talking about it and as Pano has posted he asked a buddy to measure "Good Deal" now maybe we can get some answers.
This is just how it was explained to me from Dave.And Dave does really nice work.
No problem my friend, I was laughing when I read the lampcord part. I guess I should have put a big smiley in there. That's the problem with typing, you can't see the expression. I really did mean "funny guy"Quote:
Originally Posted by Altec Best
Answers would be great. I am still stuck on the multiple capacitors altering the phase part but since I am anything but a genius, I will have my ears wide open for this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altec Best
[quote]
Cool Thanks Cal !!Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal Weldon
Me Too, I'm in the same boat my friend, yes indeedy :2thumbsup:Quote:
Answers would be great. I am still stuck on the multiple capacitors altering the phase part but since I am anything but a genius, I will have my ears wide open for this one.[