Is this low-freq driver a rigidized versio of the 515 or 416. I see that it won't reach down too as low as the 515 or 416, but 421 can play very loud.
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Is this low-freq driver a rigidized versio of the 515 or 416. I see that it won't reach down too as low as the 515 or 416, but 421 can play very loud.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Lee
It's a musical instrument speaker. I don't know what you mean by rigidized.
If you are talking about a cast aluminium 16" frame as rigidized then yes.But a 416 or 515 not sure what you mean.
Ruggedized = higher temp glues and for the voice coil, and stiffer cone to take the more violent excursion of musical instrument speakers. I was wondering is the speaker based on a 515 or 416 magnet structure/frame. I've heard that some musical instrument speakers are based on the company's hi-fi speakers.
All you have to do is either look up the specs or look at the speaker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Lee
The 421 has a large back vented ceramic magnet.
Since the 515 and 416 are both Alnico, the answer is pretty easy. No.
The 418 can be converted to a 416 by reconing.
There is no MI speaker close to a 515.
The 420 Biflex can also become a 416.
Good info, thanks!
Old Guy: Thanks for the info. I was just wondering if there was any equivalent to other woofers. Sometimes the frames and magnet structures are the same except that they use a different cone and voice coil that can withstand the more punishing musical instrument sound.
I had a friend who used his hi-fi speaker as a guitar speaker, and that was a "no go," the voice coil overheated and there was literally smoke & flames where his voice coil used to be.
Smoke AND Flames! I hope that happened on stage--would have made for one hell of a pyrotechnics display! Talk about a "smokin" guitar solo....Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Lee
I've set car speakers on fire with too much power.
Would hate to do that with a pair of Altec drivers! :eek:
The 421-8LF is a bass driver and it has been used in place of the 416 or 515 for professional use. I am thinking of the 828 cabinet. There is the A7 and there is 1236.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal Weldon
True but...there isn't a whole lot of difference between an LF and regular 421. I don't think 421 LF replacement parts are available. GPA may be able to make up something.
It's a bit better than a standard 421. but not as nice as a 416. More comparable sound wise to a 3156. The regular 421's were also used in MI A7's.
The 421, regular or LF sounds very good in a properly tuned box. But regardless, it won't reach as low as a 416B will. I've measured.
However, with the current trend of a sub below 100 or so, it becomes a moot point.
We used to add a larger paper dome over the 421's aluminum one. The net result is a slight drop in resonance and efficiency, and a slight gain in LF extension.
Also eliminates or at least reduce artifacts from the aluminum dome.
It becomes pretty close, so close I think a 421 LF just has a slightly heavier coil.
Old Guy: the 515/416 are hi-fi speakers, the 421 is a MI. The 515 & 416 should beat the 421 in terms of reaching down to the lows, but the 421 can handle way more power, I think Altec rates the 421 at 150 watts, and the 515 & 416 at 75 watts?
voice of the theater: I wasn't there to see the actual "pyro-techniques," I was there only after the fact. There was a blacken grille clothe on the speaker where the center of the woofer, and my friend had to sheepishly explain to me that it caught on fire when he used to for his guitar.
There is a 515-GHP....... The HP stands for high power, I believe. That would probably fit the bill for ruggedized.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Lee
Audio_by_Goodwill: But it is still a hi-fi speaker and not a mI speaker.
From memory, the 421-8H Series II is the highest power handling of all the 421 units.
Replace the shiny dustcap with a vented paper one, slap a piece of duct tape over the vent on the back of the magnet, and 95% of the population(audiophools included) won't have a clue they're not listening to a genuine alnico 416 or 515. In fact, i'd be very surprised if many of the altec experts could pick the 421 in a blind test without the aluminum dome in place.
Just my .02.........................
I wonder if PA is a better term than MI? Is it used as a guitar speaker or is it more a stage monitor/sound reinforcement unit?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Lee
Very interesting. I would like to be there for that comparison and I'm guessing others would as well. I think the 825/828 cabinet would be a good starting point. Too bad we don't live closer together or we could arrange that for this weekend. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by bowtie427ss
I think I might be able to pick out a 421, but not because of the LF extension...there are noticeable differences in the upper bass...actually in some ways the 421 may well sound slightly better in that area.
The 421 WAS widely used as a bass guitar unit, Acoustic, Sunn and others bought them OEM. At least early, way more used that way. AFAIK only Altec used them OEM for PA, but then Altec probably sold as may as all those manufacturers put together.
I do not mean to imply the 421 is a bad unit. It isn't. There is also a later 921. I am pretty certain it is a refinement of the 421. Have been told it has slightly less LF, but have never tested a pair.
The 416 will go at least 10 Hz or so lower though. Might be an issue for some. But as bfish says, for 90%, a moot point.
And with subs, honestly the 421 may be a better mid bass. I do not like it as well in horns, at least the truncated A7. I think it would perform MUCH better in say, an 815. Now there is a mid bass system...:D
http://www.lansingheritage.org/image...closures08.jpg
With the tendency toward higher crossover points the 421 may come back into favor. But for now they can be had at bargain rates for the performance.
I see the 815 cabinet was available with either driver and the specs available for the day were remarkably similar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal Weldon
Agreed, but bear in mind that is without the reflex port...that is where most of the effect of the 421 would show.
The 815 is a "truncated" 210 horn according to the early Altec sheets. They dropped that description later, but we are looking at an 80 Hz horn.
Either 15 will get to 80 no sweat.
I wonder how would a 421 function in a single woofer 816 cab rather than a dual woofer 815?
It's a smaller horn, so it's not a single driver (smaller) 815, if that's what you're after.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Lee
It plays loud enough at low distortion for home use, but still sounds like a PA driver when pushed hard. For HIFI/HT the DC needs a coat of rubber cement to damp its excessive HF 'shout'/'ringing'.
GM
I have a pair of 421-8H and a pair of 416B. Any comments on the quality of vocals of each, below 500Hz?
My 15 cu.ft. vented enclosures are almost ready for assembly. WIN ISD shows these drivers to be close with a 32Hz tuning.
Cheers, Marshall.
The major difference is the 421 goes non-linear in a reflex like right now, so great for 'stretching out' the bass line which adds some harmonic distortion to the mids of a MI, but not my 'cup o' tea' for vocals. Only one way to know for sure which you prefer though.
GM
Thanks, GM.
Marshall.
PS. Shouldn't you be in bed at this hour?
Yeah, thanks, that is what I wanted to hear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Audio_by_Goodwill
You're welcome!Quote:
Originally Posted by mah
Dunno, I mean it's 11.37 pm EST as I type this and typically went to bed between 1-3 am during my working career with its 7.30 am start, but then I've been an insomniac for as long as I can remember. Even in my dotage I only average ~5 hrs/night, though nowadays I do occasionally 'cat nap' during the heat of the day for 20-30 min..
What are you building? Seems like we've discussed it, but can't remember much of anything for any length of time nowadays. :(
Oh well, just took a break from watching Butch Cassidy to browse/post a bit, so back to being a 'couch potato'.
GM
Hi again, GM,
Oops. Hostboard showed a post time around 3AM. Should have checked time zones for myself.
Re my project: yes we have exchanged communications. When I am at the tuning stage I would welcome your input.
Regards, Marshall.
Right. And the small horn reinforces the area where a 421 is louder than a 416. The effect is to make the system more forward and aggressive. Good for kicking vocal over audience noise. Which was the reason for the 421/A7.Quote:
Originally Posted by Audio_by_Goodwill
I recommend the bigger horn, or a bass reflex...making the port a little smaller, the paper dome I mentioned earlier, and band limiting will deal with the issues GM mentioned. Add a sub, and sounds pretty darn good. If I wanted to use the bent 32B with a 15, that might even be my final choice.
Hmmm...if this dang heat would go away mebbe I'll make some sawdust. I WOULD like to hear that.:)
I got offered a pair of 1233 PA speakers cheap. They have 421-8 LF's with 811 horns and 808 drivers. The cabinet volume is about 10.25 cubic ft. Is it possible to do a DIY conversion and have some home stereo speakers that would be acceptable to my relatively untrained ear?Quote:
Originally Posted by bowtie427ss
Probably. Retune the boxes using one of the available programs, convert the 808's to 802's and recap the crossovers would do wonders.Quote:
Originally Posted by artlab
Or new boxes from scratch, even better.
Running them active and adding an EQ also works. Doesn't hurt to extend the holes into ports and adding some socks. (aperiodic)
RE the various dust cap mods, it should be noted that the aluminum dome is responsible for dumping a lot of heat from the voice coil (aim an IR thermometer at them in use for proof). I've temporarily painted them with liquid vinyl like GM suggested to tone them down a bit for blues guitar, but OG's 4" paper dust caps probably have less thermal effect (screen-vented from 416 should be best).
Right about the 8HII being the highest power rated, when they came out, Altec offered a lifetime guarantee... unheard of in the MI world.
Isn't the screen vented cap going to cause problems becasue of the vent in the motor? .......it'll be vented on both sides.Quote:
Originally Posted by bfish
Not if you install it over the aluminum cap (leave it in place).
The 416 dome is 4", 421s metal dome is 3". Plenty of room between them.
A felt dome might be something to think about. It could breathe.
Although I suspect in Hi-Fi use the back vent would suffice...
True, one would normally either address this in the XO design in a HIFI/HT app or just EQ it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guy
Agreed, I was/am quite fond of the 421-8H with a light coating of rubber cement on the DC in a compact TQWT tuned to ~55 Hz for an 80 Hz XO.
Yeah, I've been trying to get my garage and workshop cleaned up/back in service for months now, but between a worse than usual pollen season and Summer heat/smog I've been ~ under house arrest, so only about half finished. :(
GM
I was reading this thread and just thought I'd mention that I've got a couple of blown 421 woofers here--if anyone's interested I'd sell them for next to nothing and GPA could make them good as new.....