Altec Valencia shrillness

I recently bought 2 pair of Valencia's, which look identical on the outside. They have a different crossover and wire hookup on the back, and different speakers. The one pair that said on the panel Altec 846B, both had the horn drivers blown, and one had a blown capacitor. I replaced both the caps in their crossovers, and bought new diaphragms from Simply Speakers, number 26420xx, which were supposed to be Altec and not imports. I found out later that GPA would re-magnetize and replace the diaphragms for a little less than I paid for just parts. Oh well.
The other pair I think might be Heathkits, with Altec speakers. I noticed as soon as I hooked them up, that these guys really sound like a live performance. I am a novice at most of the terms used by audiophiles, but I did hear what sound stage is all about. These speakers are night and day different than my KLH 915's which also have a 15" woofer. They open up the room, and drums sound like they are right in front of you.
However, on certain songs, they have a shrill sound that hurts your ears. Jethro Tull Aqualung for example, when Ian is singing through the megaphone, it is very shrill on all 4 speakers, but more so on the Heathkits.
The real Altec have a 806-8A horn, the woofer says 50 03 030767, and the crossover says N800-8K network. They had the blown cap in one, and I replaced both caps in both of them from Parts Express.
The other pair, which I assume are Heathkits have the horn an Altec 806A, and woofer says 803B. They both also say they are 16 Ohms, instead of 8 like the other pair.

My Questions:
1, What causes the shrillness? Is it the crossover, or jus the sound of the horn? My 2 types of horns look identical in their aluminum construction, except one pair is black and the other a blue. Could putting spray on foam on the outside of the horn stop some of the shrillness?
2. I have read that capacitors that are 35 yrs old deteriorate. The crossover in the Heathkits don't have the caps accessible, they are all layered in like a black rubber, inside a metal box, where the real Altecs crossover was like a circuit board with the caps plainly exposed.
3. They both have an adjustment knob on the outside, which I have set at 0, the highest treble setting. Can getting rid of that help the sound, by taking something else out of the circuit? Turning it to anything else takes the cymbels out.
4. I have also read about Behringer external crossovers, and about passive and active. I would assume the Behringer is active, and what I have is passive. They have one for about $90. Does it do both channels, or just one? Do I have to run 2 wires to each speaker, one for the woofer and one for the horn to use something like that?
5. What does the 16 ohm relate to in real sound? All the amps I have seen say they support 4 or 6 ohm, and some say 2. None say 16 ohm.

Any other suggestions? I have a Harman Kardon AVR 635 7.1 amp, but am running preamps signals now into 3 different 2 channel 500W power amps, as the HK would turn itself off on loud volumes. I think I have plenty of undistorted Watts, and the shrillness only happens when I crank it. I have spent several hundred $ so far on components, cables and such that didn't make an audible difference. Can someone here lead me in the right direction?

Hello Haryn, Welcome to the board.The 16 ohm speakers were designed for Tube Amps really when solid state started they then switched to 8 ohm speaker loads.As for your X-overs yes the tar-filled X-over box sounds like Heathkit but the drivers don't Heathkits were painted Gray.But it sounds like one pair is a Heathkit.The behringer crossover you speak of(Active) are for bi-amping or you can bi-amp with them.Which you can't do with the passives as you have.You are more familiar than you realize.After 3 posts you can post pics do you have pictures that would go along way of helping people here help you.Are you interested in keeping them stock original or upgrading them because the N800-K isn't a very good X-over the Heathkits are better but are a PIA with all the tar in them to repair.Foam would not be a good dampening material for the horns a better solution would be to buy some automotive undercoating that comes in a can that you could spray on the outside part of the horns very fast and quick application just keep away from the mounting flanges....

It's a shame that you didn't go to GPA first they are the only place for replacement parts for Altec Lansing speakers,components,etc..

Most likely the EQ one those recordings.

Newer Altec xovers had a mid adjustment, to smooth out "forwardness'

But combine a speaker with extra mids with a recording engineer gone EQ happy and you have...pain.

The better crossovers will help, or a good EQ.

Here is a picture of the xover for the "Heathkits?"

Attachment 881

And here is the horn.

Attachment 882
Here is what the 2 types look like:

Attachment 883

Attachment 884
The woofers look totally different. I can't put another picture on this apparently, but this is the woofer in the Heathkit. The other woofer looks very different, and is not green.
Attachment 885

Here is what the other woofer looks like:
Attachment 886

The under coating sounds like a good idea. Why isn't something like that done in the factory if it would make the horn sound better?

What about the xover?
My 2 horns look the same except for the color, but the woofers look completely different on the back, and 1 is 8 ohm and the other 16 ohm.
Anyone know what I have here?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by haryn

I recently bought 2 pair of Valencia's, which look identical on the outside. They have a different crossover and wire hookup on the back, and different speakers. The one pair that said on the panel Altec 846B, both had the horn drivers blown, and one had a blown capacitor. I replaced both the caps in their crossovers, and bought new diaphragms from Simply Speakers, number 26420xx, which were supposed to be Altec and not imports. I found out later that GPA would re-magnetize and replace the diaphragms for a little less than I paid for just parts. Oh well.
The other pair I think might be Heathkits, with Altec speakers. I noticed as soon as I hooked them up, that these guys really sound like a live performance. I am a novice at most of the terms used by audiophiles, but I did hear what sound stage is all about. These speakers are night and day different than my KLH 915's which also have a 15" woofer. They open up the room, and drums sound like they are right in front of you.
However, on certain songs, they have a shrill sound that hurts your ears. Jethro Tull Aqualung for example, when Ian is singing through the megaphone, it is very shrill on all 4 speakers, but more so on the Heathkits.
The real Altec have a 806-8A horn, the woofer says 50 03 030767, and the crossover says N800-8K network. They had the blown cap in one, and I replaced both caps in both of them from Parts Express.
The other pair, which I assume are Heathkits have the horn an Altec 806A, and woofer says 803B. They both also say they are 16 Ohms, instead of 8 like the other pair.

My Questions:
1, What causes the shrillness? Is it the crossover, or jus the sound of the horn? My 2 types of horns look identical in their aluminum construction, except one pair is black and the other a blue. Could putting spray on foam on the outside of the horn stop some of the shrillness?
2. I have read that capacitors that are 35 yrs old deteriorate. The crossover in the Heathkits don't have the caps accessible, they are all layered in like a black rubber, inside a metal box, where the real Altecs crossover was like a circuit board with the caps plainly exposed.
3. They both have an adjustment knob on the outside, which I have set at 0, the highest treble setting. Can getting rid of that help the sound, by taking something else out of the circuit? Turning it to anything else takes the cymbels out.
4. I have also read about Behringer external crossovers, and about passive and active. I would assume the Behringer is active, and what I have is passive. They have one for about $90. Does it do both channels, or just one? Do I have to run 2 wires to each speaker, one for the woofer and one for the horn to use something like that?
5. What does the 16 ohm relate to in real sound? All the amps I have seen say they support 4 or 6 ohm, and some say 2. None say 16 ohm.

Any other suggestions? I have a Harman Kardon AVR 635 7.1 amp, but am running preamps signals now into 3 different 2 channel 500W power amps, as the HK would turn itself off on loud volumes. I think I have plenty of undistorted Watts, and the shrillness only happens when I crank it. I have spent several hundred $ so far on components, cables and such that didn't make an audible difference. Can someone here lead me in the right direction?

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By shrillness do you mean brilliance?

Here is a post that pictures the Altec Valencia sound .

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/alte...ml#post1833030

Listen to the test till the end as the mic moves in.

............................

I have a Jethro Tull CD and it is one of the worst recordings I have ever heard. Do not judge the Altecs until you've played good recordings on them. For instance, do you like Elton John? His Cds are excellent...Steely Dan?....great recordings! I love Jethro Tull and I'm extremely disappointed in how such a great band was handled. It's a crime! Essentially what I'm saying is that I had the same experience. Something to consider is that the better the speakers, the more they reveal...which means bad recordings sound REALLY bad.

Oh...another thing...you've got like 400 extra watts in those amps. These speakers are very efficient and will make a big sound with a 10 watt amp. I went through an amp upgrade when I built my Altec system...moving from a Mackie PA power amp to an Adcom amp to a Crown D75 to the current Odyssey Audio amps. There is a sonic difference in hi quality amps. Having said all this, step 1 is to ensure the speakers are set up right and you are running credible program material. Good luck and welcome to the forum!

By shrillness, I mean it hurts your ears. But I only hear it on certain songs. What do I need to get to make these old speakers sound new again?

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Oh...another thing...you've got like 400 extra watts in those amps.

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At least!

Quote:

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By shrillness, I mean it hurts your ears. But I only hear it on certain songs. What do I need to get to make these old speakers sound new again?

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"Driver cry", turn it down, or move up to speakers designed to produce the SPL's your "volume knob" hand craves.

FWIW, Altec "for Heath" components are distinctly and clearly identified, i haven't seen any described here.

Quote:

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tar-filled X-over box sounds like Heathkit

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I've never seen a potted Heath XO, do you have a pic?

The green N800-G XO and 803B suggest an "iconic" model, perhaps early enough to have been before the "Valencia" name was given to them, circa 1960-63 or so.

Just my .02.....................

Maybe they aren't Heathkits. I assumed the one pair was, since they were different than the pair that is marked Altec on the wires input.
This is what the unknown look like on the inside.
Attachment 887

This is the outside.
Attachment 888

The other pair looks like this:

Attachment 889


This is the xover with the blown cap.
Attachment 890

Even though the tar filled xover is working, shouldn't it be replace just due to age?

On other albums, they do sound good. The bass beats off your chest, and you can hear the highs.

Are both pair of these Altecs?

The tar-filled XO is a Heathkit the other Altec, now that is a blown Cap literally blown apart.

As Bowtie has suggested that looks like a very early model "Iconic" That woofer is old maybe late 50's very early 60's

WRT to tar-filled XO IME they (Caps) should be replaced as they are still original.And quite old, caps have an effective life of 20-25 years give or take.

I didn't see how to replace them, as they were all encased in the tar or whatever. What about a Behringer? That is an "active" crossover? Does one unit do 2 speakers, and let you adjust the sound?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by haryn

By shrillness, I mean it hurts your ears. But I only hear it on certain songs. What do I need to get to make these old speakers sound new again?

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Yes it's normal. That is what the Voice Of The Theater is all about.My 604-8G do that on some recordings. Especially ABBA .

Enjoy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by haryn

What about a Behringer? That is an "active" crossover? Does one unit do 2 speakers, and let you adjust the sound?

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There are lots of actives, there are good used ones for cheap, and some decent cheap ones...:D

Active crossovers go ahead of the amp. you would need a second amp. and use your current amp for lows or highs depending on it's power and sonic qualities.


If this is too complex, just ask here...the glossary of terms at least will be useful

http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm

Don't worry about dumb questions, the dumbest question is the one not asked. We are here to help.

Model 19 crossovers (or active) Tube amps. Shrillness gone. Easy.

After reading the article mentioned by Old Guy, I am inclined to go to bi-amping.

Where would I buy the Model 19 xovers, and do you know what they cost? That option would be simplier.

Right now I have 2 500W per channel at 8 ohm power amps, a 10 year old Pioneer 150W a channel receiver, and the AVR635 Harman Kardon which is 75W x 7 channels. My plan is when my center speaker comes in this week, to have it driven by the HK center channel for listening to the radio, and maybe also my KLH915's on the front channel. That leaves the 4 Valencias and 3 amps that I run off the preamp of the HK's surround channels, that I could turn on when listening to loud music. Things sound pretty good right now, with the exception of a song like Aqualung. Adn although I can hear the cymbals, they aren't as loud as I think they should be compared to the bass.

When I looked at Behringers, I am totally lost, and don't even know what kind of connectors they are talking about. My pre-amp has RCA type plugs, but they have inputs of XLR. I guess someone sells a cable with both ends that I would need.

The HK sounded good by itself, driving all six speakers, but would turn itself off when driven high. My adding the power amps and the old Pioneer was a step to take some of the heat and pressure off it, and just use it as a pre-amp. It worked, and sounds better at a much higher level, but I still think that I could get a better sound by tweaking the xovers that are decades old.

I have the amps for bi-amping, if that would give the best sound. I could run the woofers of the Valencias off the power amps, and the horns off the A B speaker outputs of the Pioneer since they would need less power. It appears that all I would need is 2 of the Behringers, and the cables to hook things up.


What do you guys suggest?

One option:

Iconic Speaker Manufacturing - Speaker Crossovers

Originals show up on eBay from time to time

Quote:

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Originally Posted by haryn

After reading the article mentioned by Old Guy, I am inclined to go to bi-amping.

Where would I buy the Model 19 xovers, and do you know what they cost? That option would be simplier.

Right now I have 2 500W per channel at 8 ohm power amps, a 10 year old Pioneer 150W a channel receiver, and the AVR635 Harman Kardon which is 75W x 7 channels. My plan is when my center speaker comes in this week, to have it driven by the HK center channel for listening to the radio, and maybe also my KLH915's on the front channel. That leaves the 4 Valencias and 3 amps that I run off the preamp of the HK's surround channels, that I could turn on when listening to loud music. Things sound pretty good right now, with the exception of a song like Aqualung. Adn although I can hear the cymbals, they aren't as loud as I think they should be compared to the bass.

When I looked at Behringers, I am totally lost, and don't even know what kind of connectors they are talking about. My pre-amp has RCA type plugs, but they have inputs of XLR. I guess someone sells a cable with both ends that I would need.

The HK sounded good by itself, driving all six speakers, but would turn itself off when driven high. My adding the power amps and the old Pioneer was a step to take some of the heat and pressure off it, and just use it as a pre-amp. It worked, and sounds better at a much higher level, but I still think that I could get a better sound by tweaking the xovers that are decades old.

I have the amps for bi-amping, if that would give the best sound. I could run the woofers of the Valencias off the power amps, and the horns off the A B speaker outputs of the Pioneer since they would need less power. It appears that all I would need is 2 of the Behringers, and the cables to hook things up.


What do you guys suggest?

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At this stage I think you would be wise to keep things simple until you get your head around this. The model 19 crossover would be the easiest way & they come up on E Bay from time to time....you just need to be patient.

You have the power amps to go active & therefore you would just need the Behringer X-over. A local tech could easily make the XLR to RCA connectors for you, but I suspect that you will need someone to set up the parameters for you.

Keep in mind that not everyone has favourable results with the Behringer as it can produce it's own brand of glare into the mix, being a fairly affordable digital component.

Also keep in mind that not all recordings are going to sound pristine, regardless of the quality or value of your speakers & components....I just hope you're not being too critical of the Valencias when other things could be to blame.

You are correct in your assumption that the crossovers would be in need of a refresh...so personally I would pursue that road. The Valencias are a fine speaker straight out of the box, but they won't sound perfect on every recording.
Cheers,
John

Quote:

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Originally Posted by haryn

Where would I buy the Model 19 xovers, and do you know what they cost? That option would be simplier.

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The model 19 X-overs come up on eBay quite often maybe once every 1-2 months thereabouts. Price range $150-$250 give or take.Or if you prefer to build your own,here are a couple schematics for you. :)

The Behringer is a good cheap unit....but why limit yourself? Pun not intended....

Only one example of a NICER used unit....readily available

RANE AC-22 STEREO 2 WAY OR 3 WAY CROSSOVER - eBay (item 160482024595 end time Sep-23-10 12:31:55 PDT)

you can see the back panel 1/4" connections here

*_* ??? ???? RANE AC 22 ????Թ USA ???? ??Ѻ *_*

1/4 to RCA is readily available

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/Ph...7/N/4289288132

The Rane is a nice idea. Just be sure you have some protection on the horn drivers when you go active. I'd use fixed L-Pad (2 resistors) for sure, and maybe a cap.

The Rane should sound nice right out of the box and will be much easier to use than the DCX2496.

Old Guy,
Can I just use one of these to go to two power amps, so as to power my 4 speakers, or do I need to have 2 of them. My apparently older pair is 16 ohm, while the other pair is 8 ohm. They would need different volume I would think to sound the same? I don't want to cheapen things up now, but of course don't want to spend money that I can't hear a difference with.
I just bought a new Marantz single CD player, to replace my 10 year old Pioneer DVD player that was skipping at times at high volume. I had read that a single disk, stand alone CD sounded better than DVD players. Well $350 later, I can play two indentical CD's on both at the same time, and switch back and forth, and can't hear any difference at all.
I have to think that this bi-amping with a good xover will make a difference. I saw one for sale with 6 outputs. If I output the high frequency to my Pioneer as say a tape input, it has A and B speaker outputs that could go to all 4 horns. I wouldn't be able to vary the volume though between the 16 and 8 ohm horns, if I even needed to.
Not having seen one of these xovers, and being new to a lot of the terminology, makes your advice very valuble.

You've come to the right place, for sure. Many of us here use this type of gear for a living.

So let me see if I understand what you've got. 2 pairs of Valencias, one 8 ohm, the other 16 ohm, yeah? And you want to run all 4 (both pairs) at the same time, right?

IF that is the case, you will have some trouble with the 8/16 ohm thing. The 8 ohm pair run louder when driven with the same signal. I think that minimum you'd want 1 active crossover and 3 stereo amps. You can use the L-pad to bring the 8 ohm horns down a bit, they could be driven off the same amp as the 16 ohm horns.

"So let me see if I understand what you've got. 2 pairs of Valencias, one 8 ohm, the other 16 ohm, yeah? And you want to run all 4 (both pairs) at the same time, right?

Yes that is correct. I also will be running a center speaker, and 2 KLH's, but only want to bi-amp the Valencias.

Is an Lpad the adjustment on the crossover? I can change the gain of each set of speakers with my Harman Kardon receiver, before it goes to its pre-amp outputs, so I don't know if I would need that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by haryn

Is an Lpad the adjustment on the crossover? I can change the gain of each set of speakers with my Harman Kardon receiver, before it goes to its pre-amp outputs, so I don't know if I would need that.

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Very confusing what you are asking here.

There are NO L-pads on an active crossover. (Generally)

L-pads can be line level(preamp) or high level (speaker). They are used to reduce signal mostly. they can have other uses but not important right now.

In this forum, generally assume they are speaker L pads.

What Pano said is if you put the 8 ohm and 16 ohm speakers on the same amp the 8 ohm will draw more power from the amp, thus play louder. An L-pad could balance this. An example of a variable L-pad is the level control on a Valencia. L-pads are more complex than a simple resistor. With active xovers you have gain controls so generally do not use L-pads.

NO YOU CANNOT adjust the gain of each speaker from the preamp.

ONE set of preamp out goes to the input on the Active xover. So you have no separate adjustment

If you wanna do that you need 2 xovers and 4 amps. One xover and two amps per set of Valencias.

An L-pad is nothing more than a variable resistor that allows you to increase or decrease the Mid-High Frequencies. It allows you to adjust the acoustics of your speaker MF-HF to your listening room.

PS. Pano & OG have been doing this a very long time and are giving you great advice !

Those big round things are your L-pads this is a rebuilt model 19 Xo which allows you MF and HF control

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2010/09/41.jpg

So with an Lpad, I could run all 4 horns off of one amp, 2 horns on each channel with the Lpad to soften the 8 ohm horn? Can I run 2 power amps for the woofers off of one active crosserover, as in siamese the outputs to run to both amps?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Altec Best

An L-pad is nothing more than a variable resistor that allows you to increase or decrease the Mid-High Frequencies. ]

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Technically. that is misleading.

A resistor is a resistor, an L-Pad is a network of resistors

"The L pad does this by having two separate rheostats connected in an "L' configuration (hence the name). One rheostat is connected in series with the loudspeaker and, as the [[Electrical resistance|resistance]] of this rheostat increases, less power is coupled into the loudspeaker and the [[loudness]] of sound produced by the loudspeaker decreases. The second rheostat is connected between the input and ground (earth). As the first rheostat increases in resistance, the second rheostat decreases in resistance, keeping the load impedance (presented at the input of the L pad) constant. The second rheostat usually has a special ''taper'' (function of resistance versus rotation) to accommodate the need for constant input impedance."

Cheap L-Pads may just be a rheostat, which is why people pull them and put in fixed pads.

I think I am getting closer now, and want to run this by you all.

If I put one of these L-pads on each of the 8-ohm horns, to lower the volume level to match the 16 ohm horns. Are these at Parts Express good ones?
Eminence PX-LPAD Crossover L-Pad Attenuator | Parts-Express.com

I would run the 2 pairs of horns out of the Pioneer with AB speaker outputs.

What about this xover, with 6 outputs.
BBE DS26 2-Input 6-Output Loudspeaker Management System | Parts-Express.com
It would appear to a novice like me that the 6 outputs would be right and left on 3 different channels.
One set of outputs would go to one power amp and then to one pair of woofers, one set to the other power amp and then to the other woofers, and the last set to the Pioneer and the 4 horns, with the 8 ohm horns having the L-pads attached to the speaker in between the input wires and the horn wires. Is this right, or is this crossover overkill for a stereo? I have read some bad things about the Behringers quality, and I would think it would be simplier to have just one box with the 6 outputs that I need instead of 3.

What about resistors that were mentioned? Any recommendations on exactly what I need? Also, I have read that I need to know the frequency response of each speaker to set the xover. Does anyone know where I can get that, or it is just a matter of playing around with it tell it sounds the best?

Then all I would need is the XLR to RCA jacks, so I can plug everything together since all my amps have RCA plugs? Am I missing something, or does someone have a better place to buy or like a different brand?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by haryn

So with an Lpad, I could run all 4 horns off of one amp, 2 horns on each channel with the Lpad to soften the 8 ohm horn? Can I run 2 power amps for the woofers off of one active crosserover, as in siamese the outputs to run to both amps?

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:Light bulb:

The Eminence is a fancier packaged version of...

L-Pad 100W Mono 3/8" Shaft 8 Ohm | Parts-Express.com

Don't get lost in the forest. you don't need 6 outputs. Siamesing works fine.

The amps will have level controls (hopefully).

Setup:

two HF out to horn amp left/right. Attenuate 8 ohm horn with L-pad

Two LF out siamesed...one to left of 2 amps, other to right.

Crossover LF full on. Turn on woofer amps only. Play music Using amp level controls, balance volumes of different woofers.

Turn amps off, turn 8 ohm horns completely down. Generally, turn down the xover HF and run the HF amp volume about 2/3.

Turn on 16 ohm woofer amp. At this point you just have 16 ohm woofers. Turn on horn amp and bring up level at xover till sounds balanced.

At this point, the 8 ohm woofers are off and the 8 ohm horns are turned all the way down.

You can then power off the system and power back up with all amps on. Turn up the 8 ohm horns (L-Pads)to balance the 8 ohm woofs.

power amps LAST ON FIRST OFF.

Always start with horns down and bring up to balance the woofs. Start with the horns high, you will temporarily screw your HF hearing.

Generally, you will run the woofers all the way up on the xover and use the HF control for balance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Old Guy

Technically. that is misleading.

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OG, was just trying to explain as plain as possible, what to look for with a Picture included.;)

PS. But you do explain much better than I :) BTW for an Old Guy you have pretty fast fingers on those keys ! I was going to post that L-pad mono 3/8 and Bam it's already up ! :D I also would like to say a very,very,thorough explanation by OG . Haryn that should just about get you up and running smoothly now to work in setting it all up :coffeedrinker:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Altec Best

OG, was just trying to explain as plain as possible, what to look for with a Picture included.;)

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NP.:D

Wanted to make sure "just a resistor" wasn't taken literally.

You fellows have been busy while I was working!

Yes, what OG said. Use the Rane as a 2 way crossover.
The bass output of the Rane goes to 2 stereo amps (use a Y cable). These 2 amps power your woofers.

The treble output of the Rane goes to 1 low power stereo amp. That amp drives all 4 horns (2 horns left, 2 horns right). Use L-pads on the horns to match the level of the woofer in the same Valencia cabinet.

You'll want some sort of preamp to drive all this with one volume knob. It goes before the crossover. With all these various volume controls - preamp, crossover, 3 amps, L-Pads, it can get confusing. But don't worry, we can walk you thru it all and help you. If you have or can find a voltmeter that has a low AC scale (about 10V) it will help with setting levels.

After talkin with the guy at Parts Express, he suggested the much lower priced Behringer SuperX pro, for about $80. But then to siamese the 2 power amps, he said I should use 2
Rolls MS20c Microphone Splitter/Combiner | Parts-Express.com
mic splitters to go to the 2 power amps at $45 each. His thing was that even though 2 of these splitters cost more than another xover, I would be happier with less stuff to adjust. I don't think that he has the knowledge of the people here that have taken their time to try to help me, or understands after a 5 minute phone call that I have 16 and 8 ohm speakers.

Since my Harman Kardon has 7 preamp outputs, and I thought that the cleanest signal went through the least of other crap, then this not only costs a little more, but would be less effective sound wise to using 2 xovers direct to the power amps.

Am I missing something here? How hard can it be to adjust a box to something that sounds better, and then leave it alone? I have never done this, but isn't it like adjusting the bass and treble on an amp? You turn a knob and listen for the difference, better or worse. And with 2 systems, the matching volume should be a no brainer, and not require the Lpads.

If I am understanding all that you all have said, and the articles that you have linked to, then the best thing would be to do away with the Lpads and these mic splitters, and just get 2 of the xovers, and treat each one differently according to the ohm impendance, with nothing in between. Then my surround sound, which I really haven't been able to hear yet, would still be effective, and I would spend less and have less connections. I have 2 separate outputs that I will be using, just like 2 separate stereo systems playing the same music. Isn't the best and cheapest, using the Behringers, to keep it all separate, and adjust and play each one as desired?
Do you all agree with this salesman that I can spend a lot more money, and not hear a difference over the Behringers'?

Thanks for all your help and suggestions. That is what these forums are for, and I only hope that someday I may be able to help someone else from the knoweldge that you have, and I hope to get soon.

You are getting lost in the translation here.
First, the 16 ohm units aren't going to sound like the 8 ohm units.
Start with the 8 ohm units, get them sounding good, then do the 16 ohm units.
Neither are going to sound good with high power SS amps. They just aren't.
With blown HF drivers, and a blown cap in the crossover, someone blasted them to pieces with amps like you have.
If you insist on SS amps, OG can recommend a suitable resistor to add in series with the speaker to mimic a tube amp. These speakers love tube amps! 40 watts is more than enough. (BTW....non fedback tube amps retain the wonderful sounding 2nd harmonics...ask me how I know)
The stock crossovers need to be replaced with N1201-8A or M19 crossovers. Vastly superior to the orig 2 way.
I tried bi-amping using the M19 crossovers, and it was a pain in the a$$. Constant tweaking with the levels, and I used 4 identical Heathkit triode amps.
I believe if you use SS amps and an active 2 way x-over, you will never be satisfied.

And you don't need to run all 4 of these with a center channel to blow your ears off!

And I totaly agree with Steve Mac....bad recordings will sound bad on these, untill you get them tamed a bit....but they will still sound bad. You can't fix that.

You are starting an Altec journey here, be patient, it's a system, involves the CD player, preamp, amps, speaks and the room ( which is highly underated) and most of all your ears.

Ron

Ron,
You are right, I am a little lost. I thought I had it all figured out last night, and woke up this morning realizing that to do what I was going to with 2 xovers, I needed another amp.

It is too late to go to tube amps at this stage, so I would like to find out about the resistor you mentioned. Also I need to find some Y cables like Old Dog had mentioned for the 2 big amps, and get the Lpads for the 8 ohm horns. Does anyone know where to find the Y cables? The splitter boxes the Parts Express guy wanted me to buy just seem wrong.

Sorry to be such a pain, but some of this is finally sinking in. I still want to try the bi-amping, and if I can't get it to sound right, I will just sell it all and go to tubes and passive xovers. I have bought too much stuff, probably over kill as you all keep telling me, to stop now before I get at least something finished.
If nothing else, it is fun fooling around with this stuff, and learning a whole lot of new things. At least I am at a time in my life when I can afford another hobby.

Sadly the guy at Parts Express is a salesman. He wants to sell you what he has.
You do NOT need the splitter.

If you insist on Behringer

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/CX3400.aspx

The parts express Behringer won't be any cheaper than a used Rane

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Originally Posted by RonSSS

Start with the 8 ohm units, get them sounding good, then do the 16 ohm units.

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I have to disagree...I recommend balancing the woofs together, then bringing uo the horns one set at a time...

As far as amps, it gets personal and I don't wanna delve there. I suggest get it working first then making improvements. Stop when happy.

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As far as amps, it gets personal and I don't wanna delve there.

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No opinion offered, just a comment: I found it to be a little more cut and dry after finally grasping a basic understanding of the relationship between load impedance, amplifier output impedance, and damping. Thank you GM!:2thumbsup: