Im not talkin about Sammy Baugh and YA Title, lets say after the merger:
Let's hear em
1) Joe Montana
2) Peyton Manning
3) John Elway
4) Brett Farve (he should quit, but look at his career without the name)
5) Dan Marino
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Im not talkin about Sammy Baugh and YA Title, lets say after the merger:
Let's hear em
1) Joe Montana
2) Peyton Manning
3) John Elway
4) Brett Farve (he should quit, but look at his career without the name)
5) Dan Marino
can't argue with that list. I dont' care if Marino never won a SB, he was amazing. if SB wins count then you would have to put Trent Dilfer in front of Marino. Ain't going to happen. Best pure passer EVER in the game.
I'll agree with your top 5, only rearrange them a bit. I used to always have Montana #1, but after thinking it over the past few years, I've changed my mind.
1. Elway
2. Montana
3. Manning
4. Marino
5. Favre
Cant believe you left Steve young off that list, 230 passing tds, 33000 yards 3 SB's 40 rushing Tds 4000 rushing yards and a career 97 passer rating, he definitely needs to be up there. especially from a niners fan! :D
1) Montana (i cant see an argument for it, i really cant)
2/3) Peyton/Young depends on how peytons career ends up
4) Brady (3 rings and great stats)
5) Toss up, i cant put favre here, just too many errors in too many games. He has incredibly good numbers but also has the records for all the things a great player shouldnt. Ill throw Elway here.
Yeah, but how many SB's did Young start and win? I love young and he would be on the short list of best of all time but just dosn't make top 5
Joe Montana was a fine QB but is overrated IMO. Most say to look at the fact he won every SB he was in. That is fine, but about 2 plays before the pass to Taylor if I am not mistaken, Eric Thomas dropped a pass that hit him right in the hands for what would have been the game clinching INT. Elway to me has always been amazing, and had far less talent overall around him.
1. John Elway
2. Peyton Manning (will probably go down as the best ever)
3. Dan Marino
4. Joe Montana
5. Brett Favre
I agree on Favre needing to retire, but I think he's a prima donna trying to pad his stats because he is afraid Peyton will catch him. Tom Brady could very well knock one or two off this list as well before its all said and done.
Montana was clutch; whether its weird occurances or luck whatever, Montana was clutch defined, as well as the only 3 time SB MVP.
i dont agree with the Elway part; his two SB wins he had very good teams. In 98, TD rushed for over 2,000 yards and the Broncos finished 14-2. Ed McCafferey had 1000 yards receiving, Atwater was still good, same with Romanowski. Terrell Davis, Shannon Sharpe, McCafferey, Atwater, Romanowski, good teams.
Were they the 84 Niners? No, but i wouldnt say vastly less talent.
And Elway was not the team's best offensive option any more. Montana was the best player on his team until arguably his last SB win, when Jerry Rice was taking over.
but I can see and accept your opinion.
but Marino over Montana? really?
i dont see that one, not even close.
Marino has one MVP award, in 1984. The year the Montana-led Niners beat them in the SB.
Marino's Fins were 14-2, best team in the AFC, and he had a very good team.
Montana and Co beat them by 3 TD's. Now I can see some argument, the 84 Niners were one of the best teams of all time, 1 loss on the season, and drubbing everybody.
Montana was a back to back MVP, 4 rings, 3 super bowl MVPs, and that does not include his best attribute; his mojo. Montana is generally recognized as the greatest clutch QB in NFL history. It all depends on what really means more;
stats and gaudy numbers or being the best on the biggest stage, winning games.
not to mention the spine problems in 86. He was advised to retire, he was done, etc..
Won two more SB's and an MVP award.
Stripes, with the Super Bowl on the line from your own 10, 1:30 left, 1 time out, who do you want at QB, Joe Montana or Dan Marino?
oh, and Montana threw 11 TD passes in 4 Super Bowls;
0 interceptions.
I honestly think its a toss up between all of those. I guess I should have clarified Elway some. At the time of him being head to head with Montana, his teams weren't near as talented. I agree when he got his SB rings, he was still very good, but TD was the centerpiece, although IMO that took some hit when TD kept going down after that and you could plug in a RB and still produce 1500 yards rushing.
And to answer your question, I don't want either one, I want Elway. Thats why he's above both. I detest Favre, but will give him his due. No way I want him with the ball with the game on the line though.
im not big elway fan, refusing to go to a team is pretty weak, but i cant act like its absurd to want elway.
but im still riding with montana.
Elway has one big defining moment, so does Montana.
and which is cooler? the drive or the catch? lol
plus the talent factor;
elway was the more classically talented QB, whereas Joe was a smaller guy with a smaller arm.
and when it was in the biggest times in the biggest situations, montana never ever ever failed.
0 SB picks, 3 sb mvps.
four words end this debate with me.
isnt that john candy?
1 word. Helicopter.
and to beat it all, i believe his best year was 90.
if he does not get hurt late in the 4th, i believe SF beats NYG in the nfc title game and rails buffalo.
800 yards, 78% comp. percentage, 11 TD's, 0 INTs.
and a 92.3 career passer rating
elway's is 79.9, three tenths higher than bryon leftwich
Peyton Manning is the best football player I've ever seen. It's really not even close.
yeah and i agree, but its hard to put somebody whose career is still going and who will continue to amaze us even more before his time is up. You ask me this same question in a few years and there will be no argument at all. I couldnt imagine what Manning would do if he had some better players around him.Quote:
Originally Posted by pvfan
Peyton Manning #1 hands down IMO, he makes mediocre #5 receivers shine. Case in point being Brandon Stokely. Stokely can thank Manning for any money he has received in the league. There are several more you can add to that before his career is done. Austin Collie (really?), Pierre Garcon to an extent, Anthony Gonzalez, etc, etc.
I got
1. Manning
2. Montana
3. Elway
4. Marino
5. Brady
I admire Favre's toughness but don't want the ball in his hands when the game is on the line. When you play in the league 54 years you are going to put up numbers
post of the year.Quote:
Originally Posted by UTVols2
i dont see peyton as the best football player ever, he has nowhere near the success of Jerry Rice.
Rice was more dominant at his position, has more rings, and holds more records.
touche' Jerry rice is my favorite player of all time, he put so much hard work into every dagone play it was amazing. he was never the fastest, def not the strongest, didnt have the ups of other recievers... but his hard work and know how and just ability to run routes made him the best of the bestQuote:
Originally Posted by Biggin
he is my favorite player too. has been since i was first able to watch football.
derrick thomas was a solid #2, but Rice is by far #1 for me.
It's a different game. Today the NFL has more parity than ever before and Manning has been one of the two best players in the league for over a decade.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggin
[QUOTE=Biggin;1840634]i dont see peyton as the best football player ever, he has nowhere near the success of Jerry Rice.
[/QUOTE
Your just mad he always whipped Bama's butt.
made my point for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by pvfan
today's NFL (Manning's era) is the most pass happy era in NFL history.
Rice's time was mostly still during the run first era.
and Rice still set every major receiving record, plus 3 SB rings and 1 SB MVP.
Rice>Peyton
im not a big Peyton fan, you are right, but I still realize his greatness. I have him ahead of guys like Marino and Farve, I can put my bias aside.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1nStripes
You only dislike Montana because he beat the Cowgirls on the most memorable NFL play ever :p
Shut up! haha Clark beat them not Montana. As you said earlier, Elway and Montana have two historic plays that reference them. One is "The drive" Elway. The other is "The Catch" thats attached to Montana, but truly its Clark's play.
Clark cant catch it if Montana does not scramble out, take a huge hit and still get him a catchable ball.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1inStripes
but Clark made the catch of his life. I cant argue that. If that was a regular game in September, no way he catches that ball.
Montana has a drive like that too tho, against Cincy in the SB.
So two huge NFL moments>1 hehe
the Helicopter is nice, but it was not as big as the Drive of the Catch.
god im just glad to talk football. this place has gotten so boring, this is just great. i know corny it sounds, but ****it this is what this place is for.
Quit recreating history. Montana never was touched before he threw the ball. Too Tall Jones jumped to block it and someone else came over and shoved Joe after he had released the ball, nothing major. :P
The Colts are absolute garbage. If Manning isn't there, they don't win a game this year. Does anyone remember Marcus Pollard? At around the turn of the last decade he was considered one of the best TE's in the league and many people thought he was the best. He leaves Indy and is never heard from again. I wonder how good Marvin Harrison really was. How good Reggie Wayne is. I think both are really good, but if they don't play where they did (or do) are they any better than someone else's #2 or 3 receiver? If Manning had been drafted by the Steeler's or the Patriots we could be talking about the longest run of Super Bowl wins ever. The guy is amazing with D+ talent surrounding him. He has the worst run game in football for the last 3-4 years, has one of the 2-3 worst defenses in the sport, has a mediocre coach in Dungy (good D coach but was never a great head coach) and a garbage coach now, and still manages to win 12 games a year. He makes guys like Blair White, Austin Colley, Brandon Stokley, and Dallas Clark look like phenoms. He seems to be getting better every year too.
Couple of points;Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironlung
D+ talent?
Dwight Freeney, Robert Mathis, Edge, Wayne, Bob Sanders, Harrison, Clark, Bethea, Brackett, Jeff Saturday, Joseph Addai, are all very good players.
Freeney was a member of the All-Decade team in the 2000;s.
The Colts D has been bad at times during Peyton's tenure, but during his only SB win, the defense carried the team and played as well as any unit in the league in the playoffs.
The Colts were last in rushing the last two years, but were 18th in 07, 18th in 06.
its worth mentioning that the Colts were last in rushing two years running, but also attempted the 3rd-least amount of rushes in 08 and attempted the 2nd least rushes in 09.
and theres no doubts how good Harrison and Wayne truly were. They were both highly rated, extremely talented WR's coming out of college, first round picks.
The argument fits for Gonzalez, Collie, Stokley, White, etc.. but not Harrison and Wayne.
The Colts defense was 8th in scoring, 18th in yards allowed in 09; in 08, 11th in yards allowed, 7th in scoring defense. In 2007, the Colts led the NFL in scoring defense and 3rd in total yards, the best unit in the league.
The Colts defense is a good unit and in the top half of the league the last couple of years. What you said about the Colts D is not true.
I understand your point, but the talent gap is not as dramatic as you insinuate. Peyton is that team, but they have had a very good defense the last two years and a great stable of offensive weapons.
The Colts D is good as long as the O jumps out to a big lead quick, forcing teams to play catch up. They suck against the run though if the O doesn't jump out quick.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1inStripes
I can agree with that somewhat, but its hard to call the Colts a horrible, terrible defense when they have finished in the top half of the league every year the past three years, and being the best overall defense and producing the NFL Defensive POY in 2007.
The Colts defense is garbage. Mathis is their best player and you could argue that Powers is their next best player. Freeney's nothing more than a soon as the ball is snapped run for the qb player. It's getting easier for teams to scheme around that. Playing the run is not even in his repertoir. There is a place for a guy like Freeney and he's valuable, but it'd be nice if he weren't a 1 trick pony. Like Stripes said, if they're ahead they look like something other than hot garbage. Bob Sanders, when's the last time he played 2006? He's litterally been hurt and sat out more games than he's played. He was hurt and out again this season on the first drive of the season. He's a talent but it's never seen because he's played less than 2 seasons combined when you take out injury missed games. It's hard to count that as talent on the field, when he's never on the field. Throwing Bethea in as a counter argument is pretty weak too. He couldn't tackle a blanket and has C+ at best cover ability. You should have mentioned Bullitt before him, even though he's out for the year with an injury now. They played some cat named Pablo Francisco or something like that at S last night. Those defensive rankings are skewed as well when you think about how teams have to play the Colts. If Saturday leaves Indy, you'd never hear from him again. He can't run block (nor can anyone else on that OL) and he's small. He'd go the way of Pollard. For Harrison and Wayne, what does being highly rated and 1st round draft picks have to do with anything. There are 2-3 every year that do nothing. I'm not saying that they haven't been good, my question was if Harrison or Wayne had gone to Carolina, would you have thought of either as being Steve Smith-like or would they have been more like Meachem in NO, a good solid player but not an A list WR.
IMO, the Colts talent consists of
Manning A+
Freeney A-
Mathis A+
Wayne B (I still wonder how truly good he is, if he's not where he is is he a C)
The mysterious Bob Sanders 3-4 years ago A now B-
I wouldn't put any of the rest of their players above a C.
I think Addai is talented, but there are at least 10-15 RB's I'd take ahead of him. Off the top of my head... Thomas Jones, Jones-Drew, Johnson, Choice, Felix Jones, Forte, Jamal Charles, Peterson, Mendenhol, Stewart, Tomlinson, DeAngelo Williams.
I will throw out some names and see what some of you guys think:
Terry Bradshaw-4 starts, 4 wins
Troy Aikmen-3 starts, 3 wins
Roger Staubach-5 starts, 2 wins
Bart Starr-2 starts, 2 wins (also won 3 championships before merger;most all-time championships for starting QB with 5 total)
Bob Griese-2 starts, 2 wins ( don't think he started all SB maybe injured)
Jim Plunkett- 2 starts , 2 wins (only QB with multiple SB wins not in Hall of Fame)
Ben Roethlisberger-2 starts, 2 wins
Tom Brady-4 starts, 3 wins
All of these guys led their team to multiple Super Bowl's. I didn't name the one's already mentioned in earlier post's.
I always liked Joe Montana but if you go by appearances then Staubach,Elway, and Starr is the best.
Bart Starr has the most championships so does that make him the best?
Bonus: QB's with multiple rings but didn't start all the games in the season.
Steve Young-1 start, 2 back-up
Phil Simms-1 start, 1 injured (Jeff Hostetler won)
Jim McMahan- 1 start,1 back-up for Green Bay
Earl Morrall-3 rings out of 4 SB's but was the back-up at the beginning of the season for all four.
Replaced Johnny Unitas for 2 of them (Johnny was injured for both SB's),replaced Bob Greise on the perfect season,and was back-up the following season in Miami.
Sanders was defensive POY in 07. But he has been non-existant since then, I agree. But he is very talented.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironlung
I also agree that Mathis is by far Indy's best defender, but Freeney has been a sack/fumble machine for years. His role alone, a pass rusher, makes him a viable threat.
Whichever DB is hurt is the one I was talking about. If its Bullitt thats who I was talking about, I can't keep them straight.
Like I told Stripes, I agree the stats get skewed a bit, but a top ranked defense is a top ranked defense. Points allowed is a very big stat, and Indy has finished in the top 20 the last three years.
My point about Wayne and Harrison is that they were viewed as being very talented guys. Its not as if they were late round picks who nobody saw coming having huge careers. I also believe you are devaluing Harrison by not recognizing how much he helped Peyton out early. When Peyton was young, he was nowhere near the QB he is now, and Harrison was his go-to guy and his safety blanket. I think you can credit a lot of Peyton's success early in his career to Harrison just as much as you can attribute Harrison's overall success to Peyton.
And I think Addai is a top 15 RB, its close but I think he is. I do not think T. Choice has shown to be better, Addai has been very good rushing and receiving for years now, and Indy is a terrible run blocking team. But I agree with your list aside from Choice and maybe Forte. But I think you forgot a few, I would take Ray Rice, Frank Gore, Steven Jackson, and Arain Foster over Addai.
I love to rank positions, so Ill do my RB rankings:
1) Chris Johnson (stats alone, but I believe A. Peterson is a better pure runner)
2) Adrian Peterson
3) Maurice Jones-Drew
4) Steven Jackson
5) Ray Rice
6) Frank Gore
7) Rashard Mendenhall
8) DeAngelo Williams
9) Jamall Charles
10) Jon Stewart
11) Arian Foster
12) Thomas Jones
13) Joseph Addai
14) Felix Jones
15) LT
and pepperoni;
I said after the merger, so Starr's 3 titles before are not relevant.
its not just about SB rings and wins, its about performance in those biggest games, and nobody played any bigger than Montana. Aikman is a great QB, but he is not in that upper echelon.
Staubach is a great, top 10 QB ever, but he is not viewed in the same light as a guy like Montana or Elway.
Super Bowl appearances are nowhere near as important as Super Bowl wins. If you make it 5 times and lose all but once, how is that better than going 4-4?
And no other player, let alone QB, has been a 3-time Super Bowl MVP.
Bradshaw is the only guy with as many starting QB rings in the SB, so I dunno where you are getting with that.
and im sorry, guys like Plunkett, Big Ben, McMahon, Griese, Simms, Morrall are nowhere near top 5 QB's, not even close.
like I said, its not just about winning Super Bowls, its the facts surrounding the situations that define greatness.
When you are talking comparing guys like Elway and Montana, since the stats are so close in a lot of regions, its the other accomplishments that define the best. Its not just about rings, thats why Plunkett is nowhere near Montana or Elway. Its about an overall body of performance, an overall career as a QB.
and Montana does not have the best stats of all time, not even close (but neither does Elway) but when you factor in their actual performance, their clutch games the ability to not let their team lose, they are two of the top 4 QBs of all time since the merger.
Its mostly subjective, and I view clutch performances, big wins, and always playing the best at the highest level and in the most important games a big factor.
But even tho its very subjective, guys like Griese and Big Ben are nowhere near the level of an Elway or a Montana.
Side note;
Im glad you brought up Unitas. If we were ranking QB's overall from all generations, I may have Unitas #1. I believe he may be the best QB to ever walk on the planet.
But Montana couldn't do it without an ACL.
Hey now we don't know if that's true, because Montana never had to worry about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1inStripes
but Joe was so awesome, he could do it with no ACL in either knee. Shoot Joe could do it without a left arm! haha
[QUOTE=Biggin;1840850] I love to rank positions, so Ill do my RB rankings:
1) Chris Johnson (stats alone, but I believe A. Peterson is a better pure runner)
2) Adrian Peterson
QUOTE]
actually they showed last night on MNF the stats from each back. they only compared stats from the time both were in the league at the same time and that stats were almost identical. CJ had more receptions and AP had more fumbles but their rushing stats were identical.
right, CJ had way more receptions, but half the fumbles.
it didnt show YPC, so im not sure whose is higher.
yeah, the running stats were scarry they were almost exactly the same
adrian peterson cant hold onto the ****ed ball to save his life. still, I wouldnt want to hit him. Im already having flashbacks of william campbell just bringing up good running backs.
: (
yeah, AD might be my last choice on having to tackle a RB.
Maurice Jones-Drew is up there, so is Mendenhall.
the Alabama duo is much of the same, both guys are not guys I would line up to tackle.
but Peterson runs so violently and hard, its no wonder he fumbles so often. If I am a coach, that's a problem I can live with. If he keeps running like this, I can deal with 7-8 fumbles a season.
unless they come in the playoffs........... but yeah, as long as he doesnt cost them games then im all for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggin
I don't think he has fumbled this year has he? the one against the Cowboys they put it on Favre but I think it was AP's fault