Atheist group demands East Tennessee school cease pre-game prayers

CHATTANOOGA, Tenn. (AP) ? A group that promotes the separation of church and state is demanding an end to prayers before football games at Soddy-Daisy High School.

The Chattanooga Times Free Press quoted the attorney for the Freedom from Religion Foundation, who said the Madison, Wis.-based organization sent a letter to local school leaders at the request of some students at the school near Chattanooga.

Staff attorney Rebecca Markert said the letter to Hamilton County Schools Superintendent Jim Scales was sent last week and objected to Christian prayers uttered over the school's public address system.

A spokeswoman for the schools says Scales received the letter Monday, but was not yet ready to comment because the system's lawyer was out of town.



http://timesnews.net/article.php?id=9027109

I demand a cease in athiest groups.

yes, because its the atheist groups that constantly break constitutional requirements about religion and schools.
:/

the facts are that schools are not allowed to have any form of school-sponsored denominational prayer before a school function, thats black letter separation of church and state.
and if a school is using its PA system and doing it before a football game, then it would fall under a school-sponsored prayer, therefore violating church and state.

why is everybody so opposed to a moment of silence? does that not solve the problem and leave all sides happy?

Officials halt prayers before football games at East Tennessee school


CHATTANOOGA, Tenn. (AP) ? A public high school in southeastern Tennessee will no longer allow prayer to be uttered over loudspeakers before football games, following a complaint.

Principal John Maynard said Wednesday that he would follow the order to halt the prayers issued by Hamilton County Schools Superintendent Jim Scales.

Scales told The Associated Press on Wednesday that he sent the e-mail restricting public prayer at football games on Tuesday.

"Now that we have citizens in our community protesting, we need to notify our principals to follow the law based on numerous court cases," he said.

He said he will also discuss the issue with the district's legal counsel.

The Freedom from Religion Foundation ? a Madison, Wis.-based group that promotes separation of church and state ? sent a letter of complaint to Scales, the Chattanooga Free Press reported.

Staff attorney Rebecca Markert said the letter to Scales was sent last week after some students at the high school objected to Christian prayers over the school's public address system.

She asked the school to investigate and take steps to "remedy this serious and flagrant violation of the First Amendment."

The prayers have supporters who argue it was part of school tradition. Rhonda Thurman, who is on the Hamilton County Board of Education, said anyone who didn't want to hear the prayers could "put their fingers in their ears."

But Annie Laurie Gaylor, director and co-president of the foundation, said several U.S. Supreme Court cases found prayer before football games and graduation ceremonies to be unconstitutional.

"Students are a captive audience, they're required to go to school," she said. "When there is a violation like a prayer at a school, they're really vulnerable; it's a violation of their civil rights," she said.

One area parent, Jim Rogers, whose son is manager of the football team at East Hamilton School, said he thinks that public prayer falls under his free speech rights.

"Our country was founded on the principle of religious suffrage and the freedom to express that religion," he said.

While prayer may be a tradition at the school's football games, changing populations in the area could push against the status quo, said David Eichenthal, president of the Ochs Center for Metropolitan Studies.

"As Chattanooga and (Hamilton County) continue to grow, the more we view things to open us up to that diversity, the stronger our region will be," he said. "To the extent that we make people uncomfortable or feel out of place who come to the community, that could have an impact."



http://timesnews.net/article.php?id=9027117

"why is everybody so opposed to a moment of silence? does that not solve the problem and leave all sides happy?"

I agree that a moment of silence would be an excellent idea. There would still be some unhappy from both sides though.

Good for them, they needed to be challenged. Just because "that's the way it's always been", doesn't mean it's right, it isn't. It's forcing people to take part in it and before anyone says there's no gun to their head, just don't participate and see what ridicule comes your way, it's worse in other areas - you'd probably lose your **** job. But glad to read see this, a win for the good guys.

Maybe Lee High does it best then.

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Originally Posted by R13

Good for them, they needed to be challenged. Just because "that's the way it's always been", doesn't mean it's right, it isn't. It's forcing people to take part in it and before anyone says there's no gun to their head, just don't participate and see what ridicule comes your way, it's worse in other areas - you'd probably lose your **** job. But glad to read see this, a win for the good guys.

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but wouldnt it be better if you dont agree with something to just NOT take part in it? Why would it bother them to just go about their own beliefs and let the people who pray do their thing? I mean, i dont see a petition going around telling them NOT to come to the games so that they have to miss the oh so evil prayer. **** like this kills me. On the other hand its just as easy to have a silent prayer.

Seems like Hell will get a few more people when they die.........

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Originally Posted by Rocky

but wouldnt it be better if you dont agree with something to just NOT take part in it? Why would it bother them to just go about their own beliefs and let the people who pray do their thing? I mean, i dont see a petition going around telling them NOT to come to the games so that they have to miss the oh so evil prayer. **** like this kills me. On the other hand its just as easy to have a silent prayer.

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the problem is that they used the school PA system and did it as a part of the school function. If a group of students led a prayer aside from the game and not a part of the actual ballgame activities, they would have been fine. But when a school does it across the PA system and as a part of the actual festivities, its the school sponsoring said religion and thats unethical.

A moment of silence solves all these problems everywhere, for the life of me I cannot understand why people fight against a moment of silence so hard. It keeps everybody happy and does not break any constitutional requirements.

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Originally Posted by Biggin

the problem is that they used the school PA system and did it as a part of the school function. If a group of students led a prayer aside from the game and not a part of the actual ballgame activities, they would have been fine. But when a school does it across the PA system and as a part of the actual festivities, its the school sponsoring said religion and thats unethical.

A moment of silence solves all these problems everywhere, for the life of me I cannot understand why people fight against a moment of silence so hard. It keeps everybody happy and does not break any constitutional requirements.

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ive seen these same groups trying to stop moments of silence before games/activities because they said that prayer may be going on and thats against their beliefs.............. no ****, ill dig it up when i get back from work in the morning. let me edit this and add before some of you get your panties in a wad, NOWHERE in this thread did i say that ALL atheist groups did this, but that some have tried it before.

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Originally Posted by R13

Good for them, they needed to be challenged. Just because "that's the way it's always been", doesn't mean it's right, it isn't. It's forcing people to take part in it and before anyone says there's no gun to their head, just don't participate and see what ridicule comes your way, it's worse in other areas - you'd probably lose your **** job. But glad to read see this, a win for the good guys.

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Far from being a win for the good guys. Last I checked Satan is definately not a good guy. Thats all I have to say or will say on this matter except the moment of silence part Biggin brought up is the best thing schools can do in this day and time.

Rocky, you got me looking for the moment of silence issue too and here are some things I found.

American Atheists | School Prayer FAQs

Texas: Atheist Family Suing Over Minute of Silence Law

Carrollton atheists believe moment of silence is unconstitutional | www.pegasusnews.com | Dallas/Fort Worth

Judge: Moment-of-silence law unconstitutional - Chicago Breaking News

That is why a "moment of silence" will never work because some atheists still would not be happy..

straight from the american atheist page.....

What About a "Moment of Silence"?

Q: Well, what about a "Moment of Silence" instead? That way, we don't have to worry about specific prayers?

A: What for? Why do we need a "moment of silence"? School prayer boosters have sometimes proposed this as a way of establishing a legal precedent which, they hope, will eventually lead toward explicit and vocal school prayer. Over a decade ago, the Supreme Court struck down this type of proposal; legislation of this type often calls for the "moment of silence" to be used for "meditation or prayer." Besides, consider the declining number of hours that students are in school each year. Every "moment" should be used for useful and educational instruction, not meditating!

I dont blieve in ghosts but I dont get ****ed becuase folks Do ghost hunts. YOU do your thing n I'll do mine.

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Originally Posted by MikeJones

I dont blieve in ghosts but I dont get ****ed becuase folks Do ghost hunts. YOU do your thing n I'll do mine.

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I totally agree.

so just keep religion and schools completely separate.


and I personally have no problems with the moment of silence, because I know its the best I will ever get in this area. But I completely understand some's objections to it. Not that I totally agree, but understand why the moment of silence is a slippery slope.

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Originally Posted by Rocky

but wouldnt it be better if you dont agree with something to just NOT take part in it? Why would it bother them to just go about their own beliefs and let the people who pray do their thing? I mean, i dont see a petition going around telling them NOT to come to the games so that they have to miss the oh so evil prayer. **** like this kills me. On the other hand its just as easy to have a silent prayer.

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It would be better if it was never taking place to begin with. I have no objections to people praying, let them all they want, no problem there and I fully support that. Just don't inject it in places it doesn't need to be, which a school sponsored one basically, that's my only problem.

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Originally Posted by Jason

Far from being a win for the good guys. Last I checked Satan is definately not a good guy. Thats all I have to say or will say on this matter except the moment of silence part Biggin brought up is the best thing schools can do in this day and time.

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Satan? Lol We believe he's non-existent like the other guy too, I always find it funny when people try to equate atheism to satanism.

But for something that is non existent, why fight so hard against it. Just let it be, Santa is non existent too but do you fight against him every Christmas or the Easter Bunny on Easter, the leprachaun on St.Patrick's Day, the cherub on Valentine's day.
I guess I just don't get it and probably never will. Just know that you can never stop anyone from praying or believing what they want. You can never get rid of religion. Like I have said before, one day we will see...
I don't want this to turn out to be a long religious debate because it always ends the same and there really is no use in it.

Santa doesn't influence legislation that effects the entire country, Santa doesn't try to control others with his beliefs, those can't be compared. No one is trying to stop anyone from praying, and though I'd love to rid the world of religion, I can't and I'm nor anyone else is trying to - they die out with time.

False religions are what die out. As for the Satanist/Atheist statement, you are correct, they are not the same group or equal, they just have the same destination.

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Originally Posted by R13

doesn't influence legislation that effects the entire country

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That's the definition of separation of church and state. It's meant to not use it as influence. Not rid the country or it's buildings of any mention of it. It's meant to discourage discrimination based on belief. That the law treats us all fairly, regardless of our beliefs.

Is a pre game prayer influencing the way the school is run? No.

Is the 10 commandments on display at a courthouse influencing how the government conducts it's business there? No. (If it did maybe so many politicians wouldn't lie and have affairs.)

If you have a problem with religion being present (and non influential) on any government property why not argue to have your religion included instead of ridding it of the religion that is?

But therein lies the problem for atheists. They have no true religion. So they want ALL religions removed. I'm sorry but that's just not right.

A democracy is based on the majority. Otherwise we wouldn't have a vote. And if the majority say leave it the way it has been then leave it be. It's no different than a Dem complaining about a Rep president and vice versa.

You choose to be atheist and have to live with that choice. If that means dealing with pre game prayer and pictures or other decorations of any religion on government property so be it. Just as long as it doesn't influence the decisions being made there.

And let me say I have nothing against atheists. It's their choice. I don't agree with it but I respect it.

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Originally Posted by SBG

.You choose to be atheist and have to live with that choice. If that means dealing with pre game prayer and pictures or other decorations of any religion on government property so be it. Just as long as it doesn't influence the decisions being made there. And let me say I have nothing against atheists. It's their choice. I don't agree with it but I respect it.

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you are talking to the king of controversy............................



all

And anyway, whats wrong with being atheist? I live my life based on a faith that i cant see, i cant fault someone for not believing it. But DONT try to take my religion from me. Im not the best christian in the world, i have a bad attitude and i have a problem turning the other cheek, but i will NEVER try to force my religion on somebody. If you dont want to take part in it, dont, but please dont try to take that right from me.

The problem isn't people who want to live and let live in these situations--it's the hardcore bible thumpers or the hardcore anti-anything atheists that perpetuate the drama and rhetoric.

I grew up FWB. I was raised up in church since I was about 3-4 years old. I stopped going to church around 2-3 years ago. Not because I hate the people that were there or b/c I necessarily disagreed with their right to worship...moreso b/c I believe in faith more than I do man-made religions. Religions are all established by man. Man is, to me, inherently evil. Religions have done some good throughout history, but you can pin wars and atrocities on "The Church" in so many other consequences. The hypocrisy among the stances that organized religions take socially are really egregious, and it was something I no longer wanted to identify with on a weekly and/or daily basis.

Faith is great--as it is an inspired individual choice. Organized religion is where we as fallible human beings tend to get it wrong, as it can be easily corrupted by our own collective stupidity that is only enhanced by erroneous influences from other human beings.

I love meeting people who have faith as opposed to religion. They are, to me, more likely to get into Heaven than someone who is dogmatically sound and neck deep in the Church's BS.

All that being said--to bring this full circle...if you have faith, no matter in what deity or non-diety (b/c it does indeed take faith to be an atheist/agnostic too), then you have enough personal assurance that a moment of silence will suffice for what you need to believe. It's those who are so brain-washed by either the hardcore religious zealots or the hardcore anti-God atheists that will fight for/against prayer.

Agnostics > Athiests At least they have an open mind about things. They seem to be open minded when it comes to things. Seems like liberals allways tell us to have an open mind and be accepting about everything Unless they dont like it.

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Originally Posted by MikeJones

Seems like liberals allways tell us to have an open mind and be accepting about everything Unless they dont like it.

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To be completely fair, the same can be said about conservatives as well.

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Originally Posted by SBG

That's the definition of separation of church and state. It's meant to not use it as influence. Not rid the country or it's buildings of any mention of it. It's meant to discourage discrimination based on belief. That the law treats us all fairly, regardless of our beliefs.

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thats right, but not completely. the separation of church and state was put in to keep the government from naming one religion the religion of the government to avoid persecution, so you hit the nail on the head there. but its also meant to keep religious influence out of the education and judicial system, as to ensure the fairest solutions for everybody. If a court has the 10 commandments, could that not give the idea that the court has those in mind, when those are supposed to hold zero bearing on the judicial system?

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Is a pre game prayer influencing the way the school is run? No.

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Actually, yes. By saying a denominational prayer, the school is saying that they support said religion and align themselves with a certain religion. It may sound crazy to some, but by the school saying the prayer, the school is allowing itself to become denominational, and that breaks black letter law.

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Is the 10 commandments on display at a courthouse influencing how the government conducts it's business there? No. (If it did maybe so many politicians wouldn't lie and have affairs.)

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Yes, because it gives the impression that judges and the system are using them to make rulings, which is unethical and illegal. By posting the commandments, its as if the courts support those commandments, and aside from schools, the court system is the most important system to keep religion out of. Justice needs to be completely free of any outside influences, including religion.

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If you have a problem with religion being present (and non influential) on any government property why not argue to have your religion included instead of ridding it of the religion that is?

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Why does government HAVE to include religion? The most logical and the fairest way to do anything is free of any bias or any religion, meaning no religion is on a higher plateau than any other set of beliefs. I disagree with this vehemently. Government HAS to be non-partisan and completely without bias as to provide fairness for everybody.

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But therein lies the problem for atheists. They have no true religion. So they want ALL religions removed. I'm sorry but that's just not right.

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All religions SHOULD be removed from government. Why do you have to have influence in the legislation? This is a free democracy, and it should be fair to everyone, Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists, etc.. By letting one religion be influential, its a slap in the face to everyone else.

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A democracy is based on the majority. Otherwise we wouldn't have a vote. And if the majority say leave it the way it has been then leave it be. It's no different than a Dem complaining about a Rep president and vice versa.

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so if a majority of people wanted to execute all Mexicans, you are okay with that? what about if the Hispanics become the majority, are you ok with Spanish being the official language of the U.S., if its voted on? Our country is founded on individual freedoms, therefore the government HAS to work to promote all freedoms for everyone.

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You choose to be atheist and have to live with that choice. If that means dealing with pre game prayer and pictures or other decorations of any religion on government property so be it. Just as long as it doesn't influence the decisions being made there.

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C'mon man, thats a huge crock of BS. Why do you insist that Christianity be involved and treated specially? Why do you have to have your religion everywhere? Thats the biggest problem I have encountered. Some Christians are fine with everybody being free and equal until they dont get to have their pre-game prayers or prayers in school then all hell breaks loose. Why should your religion get special favors?

By using pre game prayers or religious decorations, a school is aligning itself with a religion.
How would you feel if you lived in an area and your child was forced to deal with Muslim prayers in school? What about Buddhist decorations everywhere, and Christianity is viewed as agnosticism here?

If you truly believe in freedom and individual rights, then you would agree that all religions should be on equal footing. That all religions should be held in the same regard by the government. When you start pushing one religion in schools and government buildings, its persecuting all other religions for the sake of your own, and do you really agree with that SBG?

"Yes, because it gives the impression that judges and the system are using them to make rulings, which is unethical and illegal. By posting the commandments, its as if the courts support those commandments, and aside from schools, the court system is the most important system to keep religion out of. Justice needs to be completely free of any outside influences, including religion."

If religion needs to be taken out of the court system then I agree that some of these do not apply.
Lets take a look at those Commandments that would be " unethical and illegal " for a judge to use:

Thou shalt not kill - normally by killing something means murder or of course self defense could be used also.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. - normally means do not lie (perjury)..

Thou shalt not steal. - Breaking and entering, theft, robberies

Honor thy Father and Mother.- really I think that if SOME kids would do this very thing there would be a lot less crime and gang related activity. What is so bad about this one?

Other than honor thy mother and father, the others that I listed would be used daily in a court setting. I left the other commandments out as they do not apply at court. Also IF we want to keep God out of the courts then no one should have to lay their hand on a bible and agree to " Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?"

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Originally Posted by R13

a win for the good guys.

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I literally spit my gatorade I was drinking all over my laptop when I read this... no lie :lol:

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Originally Posted by cosmo99

If religion needs to be taken out of the court system then I agree that some of these do not apply.
Lets take a look at those Commandments that would be " unethical and illegal " for a judge to use:

Thou shalt not kill - normally by killing something means murder or of course self defense could be used also.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. - normally means do not lie (perjury)..

Thou shalt not steal. - Breaking and entering, theft, robberies

Honor thy Father and Mother.- really I think that if SOME kids would do this very thing there would be a lot less crime and gang related activity. What is so bad about this one?

Other than honor thy mother and father, the others that I listed would be used daily in a court setting. I left the other commandments out as they do not apply at court. Also IF we want to keep God out of the courts then no one should have to lay their hand on a bible and agree to " Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?"

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Hahaha That ridiculous. Those are all common-sense laws put in place that any civilized society much have to operate. You do realize laws have been around long before there was ever any bible, right?

Yeah, a few of them are a real neat reminder of stuff you shouldn't do if you need a list from a book to tell you not to do those things and that you weren't born a horrible human being. You can kill in war, kill if you're insane etc. Stealing is just obvious and that's a first with the "perjury" things lol, stretching a lot, but okay. If was really where out laws came from, they'd all be in there and as you can see, the narcissistic ones aren't in there. And that's not written law, you have the choice to no swear oath on a bible. No one should have to and they don't have to.

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Originally Posted by Milk3

I literally spit my gatorade I was drinking all over my laptop when I read this... no lie :lol:

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That's like the 7th time you've said you did that, you should stop drinking stuff next to your laptop, seems kind of stupid. But they are the good guys, they sure aren't the bad, only to narrow-minded, christians are they bad guys.

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Originally Posted by R13

But they are the good guys, they sure aren't the bad, only to narrow-minded, christians are they bad guys.

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Oh brother.

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Originally Posted by 1inStripes

Oh brother.

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I was talking in terms of this particular situation, I should have said that a lot better, they are the bad guys.

its whatever. i dont see how its legal. i doubt anything than southern baptist would be allowed. it shouldnt be allowed because of the simple fact everyone isnt the same religion. not saying anyone is more right than the other, still. I just dont see how its legal, separation of church and state should apply.

The way this country is going, I wouldn't be suprised if the Muslims were allowed to whip out their carpets and pray to Mecca before the ballgames, as sympathetic as this country and others are being pushed towards Islam.

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Originally Posted by R13

But they are the good guys, they sure aren't the bad, only to narrow-minded, christians are they bad guys.

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LOL your calling the Christians narrow minded. Atheist's are to close minded to entertain the thought of a god existing. Thank god your a democrat.

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Originally Posted by MikMo

The way this country is going, I wouldn't be suprised if the Muslims were allowed to whip out their carpets and pray to Mecca before the ballgames, as sympathetic as this country and others are being pushed towards Islam.

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thats kinda the mindset im talking about.
I dont think their should be any show of religion. its just not the place nor time. people dont want a prayer for christian belief, thats fine. what people dont realize is what gives that christian that right, gives the jew, the muslim, the atheist etc. their right.

govt should not be sympathetic towards any religion. some say thats how things are to work out. sympathy towards one religion will lead to the outlaw of all.

[QUOTE=R13;1841391]Hahaha That ridiculous. Those are all common-sense laws put in place that any civilized society much have to operate. You do realize laws have been around long before there was ever any bible, right?

Yeah, a few of them are a real neat reminder of stuff you shouldn't do if you need a list from a book to tell you not to do those things and that you weren't born a horrible human being. You can kill in war, kill if you're insane etc. Stealing is just obvious and that's a first with the "perjury" things lol, stretching a lot, but okay. If was really where out laws came from, they'd all be in there and as you can see, the narcissistic ones aren't in there. And that's not written law, you have the choice to no swear oath on a bible. No one should have to and they don't have to."


Have you researched any of what you just answered?

I swear I think a few on this board would be tickled to death if the school name was changed to Sodomy Daisy instead of Soddy Daisy

I didnt realize basic tenets of law that have been around for 6,000 years are Christian-exclusive ideals.

yankeebaseball has the exact right view, its not that any religion is better or more right, but to maintain our system of individual rights and freedoms, NO religion (or non-religion) should have any part in any government-sponsored entity.

You said
"Yes, because it gives the impression that judges and the system are using them to make rulings, which is unethical and illegal. By posting the commandments, its as if the courts support those commandments, and aside from schools, the court system is the most important system to keep religion out of. Justice needs to be completely free of any outside influences, including religion."
I said
Lets take a look at those Commandments that would be " unethical and illegal " for a judge to use:

In no way am I saying that those laws are "Christian exclusive ideals", they are both the same. Also, Justice can not be completely free of any outside influences ( not talking about religion here either) its just wishful thinking.....

i was talking about the more religious aspects of the commandments, the lusting one, the coveting one, the honoring parents one, etc.. those cannot be a part of the judicial system.

and the others are basic tenets of law, they have been around for ages.

but you are right, there is an obvious outside influence. I dont see why they still swear on on the Bible, as you brought up earlier. I think its ridiculous to try and maintain an aurua of impartiality yet still use teh bible to swear in on.