Best sounding combination for Altec 416A

I am a new member of Altec club,who knew nothing about these speakers when a friend of mine bought Altec 416A for me from chennai,india previously used in theatres ,these were reconed with new cones from GPA and then i started my quest on the net for lifelike,non fatiguing and delicate sound ,hence i am asking members to advice me which other speakers shall be going for my requirement of delicate HF and delicious mids,Even i read about mids from Altec 755A but these are too expensive,kindly advice whether i should go for any combination other than 416 or any matching driver with 416.
i have read about great sound of Altec 7 and Altec 19

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Originally Posted by mekr

I am a new member of Altec club,who knew nothing about these speakers when a friend of mine bought Altec 416A for me from chennai,india previously used in theatres ,these were reconed with new cones from GPA and then i started my quest on the net for lifelike,non fatiguing and delicate sound ,hence i am asking members to advice me which other speakers shall be going for my requirement of delicate HF and delicious mids......

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If you've got a pair of 416A's that were reconed by GPA--you've basically got a brand new pair of 416's--a great pair of woofers!. If I were building a speaker system around a new pair of 416's, I'd stick close to the Altec Model 19 design--one of the best (416 based) speaker systems ever made IMHO. If you decide to go this route, I would recommend a new pair of GPA 902 High Frequency Drivers to go with your "new" woofers (great sounding, affordable h.f. drivers that come with brand new factory installed diaphragms), and buy a used pair of Altec 811B horns. The horns are easy to find (inexpensive too) on ebay. Here's a couple of examples:

ALTEC H-811B HIGH FREQUENCY HORN...................(L.B - eBay (item 370450489530 end time Nov-26-10 13:34:47 PST)ALTEC H-811B HIGH FREQUENCY HORN...................(L.B - eBay (item 370450489530 end time Nov-26-10 13:34:47 PST)

Altec H-811B Black Horn 2 AVAILABLE good! - eBay (item 280568272162 end time Nov-27-10 14:58:37 PST)

You'll need a couple of crossovers of course, I'd recommend either buy used Model 19 crossovers from ebay etc. (or build new ones---schematics are available on this forum if you do a search) or build a pair of Zilch Z19 crossovers. IF you go this route you'll want to build Model 19 cabinets--here's a link to the plans:

Vintage Altec Lansing Model 19 Cabinet PlansVintage Altec Lansing Model 19 Cabinet Plans

Keep in mind that you've got 16 ohm woofers so you'll have to do a slight mod to get them to work correctly with those crossovers--that info is also here on this forum if you do a search for it. Best of luck with this project--please let us know what you choose to do with your 416's and if possible post some photos of your project and your impressions of the finished speaker systems. You'll find there are many very knowledgeable/helpful people (more knowledgeable than me) here on this board--you've come to the right place. Welcome aboard! :welcome:

You mentioned the 755A driver and that could be a clue that maybe your not sure what your looking for in speaker sonics or even type. Electrostat, high efficiency bass reflex, acoustic suspenison, etc.

The 755A or B are usually sought after by people that believe one full range speaker without a crossover sounds better and the popular mounting is an open baffle.

Open Baffle

These drivers can sound very nice in the mids but they lack lower bass and upper treble so they really aren't "full range" but if the mids are the most important thing to you, they work.
They aren't very efficient and I think it would be a mistake to try and use them along with the much more efficient Altec or JBL drivers because of level matching problems. (SPL)
A pair of older Electro Voice 8 inch cones like the SP8 or LS8 would probably work better and I liked them better than the 755B's I once had.

There's also a question of dynamics or impact. The 755's do not have the same impact as the Altec drivers and they don't sound as fast or sharp. You used the word "delicate" and I'd say the 755's are more delicate sounding than Altec Drivers but that would apply to the EV drivers too.

If you want to use the 416A's, I'd follow Voice of the Theaters advice and mate them with 902's or even one of the 802's with 811 horns and a model 19 xover.
BMS is also a popular HF driver and I think it might be the 4550 that some people have used with Altec woofers and it's high frequency response goes beyond the Altec but I don't know if it sounds like an Altec driver or not.
The Altec 806 driver will work but the high frequency extension isn't good.

The model 19 xover is an equalizer of sorts and it tames the mids while boosting the highs and it's very effective but if you have 16 ohm woofers the values of the components in the xover will have to be adjusted for best results as Voice already said.

The 19's can sound very smooth and life like but there is an element of punchy dynamics present and I wonder if you wouldn't be happy with a pair of Altec or GPA 604's?

I once had an early 1950's Altec 604 and I can see why they are loved so much but I prefer the more full and dynamic sound sound of the Model 19's.

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Originally Posted by voice of the theater

If you've got a pair of 416A's that were reconed by GPA--you've basically got a brand new pair of 416's--a great pair of woofers!. If I were building a speaker system around a new pair of 416's, I'd stick close to the Altec Model 19 design--one of the best (416 based) speaker systems ever made IMHO.

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Mike/panomanic sure didn't and even in a sealed alignment his took around 17 ft^3, so no way his would work well in the M19, so I strongly recommend these drivers be accurately measured before choosing an alignment other than OB.

Even if they were original, the 803B/416A wants at least a 10 ft^3 cab for good reflex loading at rated power and preferably more, so the M19 would still be a bit small and tuned a bit too high which means a smaller vent which in turn means a lower low distortion power handling and higher F3. Not many 'free lunches' in speaker design.

GM

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Originally Posted by GM

Mike/panomanic sure didn't and even in a sealed alignment his took around 17 ft^3, so no way his would work well in the M19, so I strongly recommend these drivers be accurately measured before choosing an alignment other than OB.

Even if they were original, the 803B/416A wants at least a 10 ft^3 cab for good reflex loading at rated power and preferably more, so the M19 would still be a bit small and tuned a bit too high which means a smaller vent which in turn means a lower low distortion power handling and higher F3. Not many 'free lunches' in speaker design.

GM

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Well, at least I was right about one thing--see my quote below.....:doh:

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Originally Posted by voice of the theater

.....You'll find there are many very knowledgeable/helpful people (more knowledgeable than me) here on this board.....

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For a simpler system but just as HI FI as you can get. THe Valencia model which is the home version of the Altec A7 VOTT.

THe plans: available "simpler than model 19"
The crossover :simple to make
THe horn: EBAY 811 or GPA 511
The driver :GPA 909


Don't put all your savings in a sound system is my advice.

Amps pro: Krell,Mckintosh, Chord.

Will work well with Marantz, The new Sony, Harman.

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Originally Posted by voice of the theater

Well, at least I was right about one thing--see my quote below.....:doh:

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Originally Posted by voice of the theater http://www.hostboard.com/forums/imag...s/viewpost.gif
.....You'll find there are many very knowledgeable/helpful people (more knowledgeable than me) here on this board.....

:laffingassoff: :2thumbsup: Funny stuff there.

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Originally Posted by LICORNE

For a simpler system but just as HI FI as you can get. THe Valencia model which is the home version of the Altec A7 VOTT.

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Again, being even smaller than the M19, this cab is potentially way too small for GPA 416A re-cones for high SQ (referenced to the original) in a typical room if not ~aperiodically loaded, i.e. ~stuffed with the attendant relatively high F3 - F10 roll off.

GM

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Originally Posted by DNV47

The 19's can sound very smooth and life like but there is an element of punchy dynamics present.........

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Tuning the cab lower will smooth them out further for a 'tighter'/'faster', more HIFI response similar to what one gets if loading them with 515Bs.

GM

Thanks for the information,a friend suggested to go for 360 litre Onken cabinet of 25mm birch ply with 511 horns and HF driver

i shall certainly post the pictures when the project is complete

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Originally Posted by mekr

Thanks for the information,a friend suggested to go for 360 litre Onken cabinet of 25mm birch ply with 511 horns and HF driver

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I'm not familiar with the 360 liter Onken cabinet (but I'm sure there are people here on this board who are--who may chime in about that cabinet). One thing I can say as far as your potential choice of 511 horns--there is a possible advantage to using 511 horns in a system with 416's. Some Altec fans like using a 500hz crossover with 15 inch woofers so that the crossover point in your system is below most of the vocal/mid range. That way, you're not asking 15" woofers to cover frequencies up to 1200 or 800 hz, they're covering the sound below 500 hz and the bulk of the vocal/mid range is above the crossover point. You just have to be careful that many H.F. drivers can't be pushed too hard (with too much power) without damage at the 500 hz range--this may not be much of an issue for home listening volume levels but definitely a consideration when using a horn loaded system with a 500 hz crossover for P.A. use. Has your friend recommended a H.F. driver or a crossover or are you still looking for suggestions there as well?

Yes He recommended 802 Alinico from GPA ,I had about 8 months back bought Altec 604A but had to cancel the deal as i read the sound being used in recording studios and may be analytical as i did not know about the sound

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Originally Posted by mekr

Thanks for the information,a friend suggested to go for 360 litre Onken cabinet..........

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Again, fine for an original 416A, but big as it is, maybe ideally too small for a GPA re-cone and your only tuning option is to damp or completely block off one or more of its multiple vents. WRT to a high SQ app in general, some of mine and others thoughts here: onken Onken w or A7 or Valencia - diyAudio

GM

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Originally Posted by voice of the theater

You just have to be careful that many H.F. drivers can't be pushed too hard (with too much power) without damage at the 500 hz range--this may not be much of an issue for home listening volume levels...........

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IME, for low distortion/high SQ 500 Hz XO apps requires either a large format series (2xx) or dual small format drivers (80x) otherwise the latter can sound a bit strident if not driven with a ~matching impedance tube amp.

For a 511 app then, I recommend pre-Tangerine phase plug 802 series drivers if single and you can get by with the 804/806 series if dual, with the better 802-8G, 902 or 909 series being for higher XO points due to their slightly upward shifted BW to cover the higher BW that the digital age offers.

Its main advantage over the 811 for higher XO points then is its greater directivity control over a wider BW, a plus in high aspect ratio rooms or apps where the listening distance forces the speakers into the corners to get decent stereo separation.

GM

Yes i was suggested 1200 HZ Xover

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Originally Posted by mekr

Yes He recommended 802 Alinico from GPA ,I had about 8 months back bought Altec 604A but had to cancel the deal as i read the sound being used in recording studios and may be analytical as i did not know about the sound

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Originally Posted by mekr

Yes i was suggested 1200 HZ Xover

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The 1200 hz crossover is what I originally recommended to you (the Model 19 crossover is a 1200 hz crossover). If you decide you want to go with a 1200 hz crossover as your friend suggested, then the 802-8G would be a great choice for a high frequency driver--it has a nice extended high frequency response. If you go with a Model 19 Crossover, and an 802-8G driver (and 416A woofer), you are going to have a similarity to the Model 19 design. The Model 19's use the 811B horn, whereas your friend recommended a 511B horn. There is a thread here that discusses using a 511B with a Model 19 type design and there are of course different opinions on this matter. Here's the thread link: http://www.hostboard.com/forums/alte...-19-511-a.html

Some ideas from that thread:

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Originally Posted by GM

Basically. A bigger horn 'throws' the sound further and controls directivity to a lower F6 and why I prefer the 511 to the 811 and the 311 to the 511, etc.. The trade-off other than size is that when used with a point source driver (woofer, etc.) is that the XO point must decrease with increasing horn size for a given polar response which in turn increases its required delay. Fortunately, these are no longer the major issues they once were now that adjustable digital XO, delay systems are available.

Basic cab tuning is strictly a function net Vb, so all you need to do is increase its dims enough to account for the additional volume taken up by the larger horn/whatever.

Not having ever experimented with using a 511 with a ~1200 Hz XO, not sure how well the M19's XO will line up electrically with the horn's gain BW or if there's enough mids, HF tuning adjustment, but for sure the 511 will ideally need the same driver offset to line up acoustically for the XO's point(s) to work, making it extend in front of the woofer/cab by however much longer it is. IOW, mount it same as an 811 and you'll need a much lower XO point for best performance.

GM

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Originally Posted by Panomaniac

A matter of taste, I suppose. For domestic listening I much prefer the 811. It seems lighter, cleaner, clearer to me.

But I seem to be alone in this opinion.

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Originally Posted by rontec

I noticed my 511b / 808 8b's seem to have a more opened sound than my 811s. (Valencias and 19's) But it was a larger room as well. Have you tried just setting the 511's on top of the 19 cabs and running them from there for a while? Before you do any major mods!:)

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Personally, if it were my project, I would not use the 511B horns with the 1200 hz crossover/802-8G drivers. I would definitely use the 811B horn with that high of a crossover point. Keep in mind you may have to adjust the tuning of the 360 litre Onken cabinet as GM mentioned and you will also have to compensate for the 16 ohm impedance of your woofer if using it with a Model 19 crossover. If you want to go with a 511B horn I would use a lower crossover point (and not an 802-8G driver).....

These have served me well for nearly 40 years: 2 416a, 511b, 808-8A. 500hz passive electronic biamp. IB enclosures.

altec | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

my 802d s are in the closet. roughly a 13cu.ft. box

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Originally Posted by gvasale

These have served me well for nearly 40 years: 2 416a, 511b, 808-8A. 500hz passive electronic biamp. IB enclosures.

altec | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

my 802d s are in the closet. roughly a 13cu.ft. box

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which horn is on your speakers

511b

Can any member post a link to making a 360L Onken Cabinet

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Originally Posted by gvasale

These have served me well for nearly 40 years: 2 416a, 511b, 808-8A. 500hz passive electronic biamp. IB enclosures.

altec | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

my 802d s are in the closet. roughly a 13cu.ft. box

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My Kind of Speaker, any speaker with dual 416's in it get's my attention!! :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by mekr

Can any member post a link to making a 360L Onken Cabinet

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I can send you articles in French, if you want. PM me for email.

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Originally Posted by LICORNE

For a simpler system but just as HI FI as you can get. THe Valencia model which is the home version of the Altec A7 VOTT.

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There's nothing wrong with Valencia that a comprehensive redesign can't fix.... :cool:

360 litre Onken: see my current post - Onken.

Marshall.

I use 416As in a Onken cabinet in combination with a 811 sectoral and 808 drivers. Works very well. I have posted the pictures in an earlier post on this forum. I use a Digital crossover in a active configuration.

Cheers.

hi anilva,
I would be interested to know the frequency and attenuation rate of the crossover from mid to woofer. I wonder about vocal sound when transitioning from horn to cone.
in the case of vocals that have alot of midbass energy, does the center image stay "human size" or does it get unaturally large when the woofer is carrying more of the vocal energy? I have always wondered about this, since my experience with both horns and electrostats -most of which are essentially plane wave generators- lose synergy when mated with a cone, which is essentially a sphercal wave generator. I would appreciate your comments.

Kevin
Nov 15 2010

IF I use 802 driver with 416 woofer which crossover shall suit and which horn shall go with this combination

i have not heard 604A do these sound better lifelike and delicate or combination of 416 with 802 sound better

I am not sure what a 604A would be, in the sense of the 604 duplex series. I don't think there was an 'a' suffixed 604... (others will comment if I am wrong).

So, if the 604 series is being compared, then the subtype (b/c/d/e/g/...8H/etc.) will be pertinent for the comparison, especially with respect to the HF driver and of course it's horn.

The common comparison for LF however, is:
604 series: uses 515 based LF section
605 series: uses 416 based LF section

At some point, the 16 ohm LF sections became 8 ohm. (after 'e' super duplex ?)
Once you know the suffix, you can search for some 604 based threads to read up more...

604 is A and alinico with 16 ohms

Got any tangible proof there was ever a 604A? To date there's never been any documented AFAIK, only 601, 604, 604B, etc..

WRT to what sounds most life-like, that's a subjective opinion based on the person, room, recording, playback electronics, etc., so little consensus from a large group. Factor in that each system was designed for completely different applications (apps) it's not ever going to be a fair comparison.

Overall though, a large two way offers more potential tuning flexibility and greater dynamic headroom, so for me it's the 'no brainer' (obvious) choice of the two as long as the room isn't too small/short for them to sum well enough at the listening distance (LD).

GM