Can't believe no one else put this up yet.

The FCA VA-TN allstar game is this weekend. Here are the rosters for both sides.


VA All Star Roster:

NO. NAME SCHOOL POS.
1 BRADLEY STRONG . . . . . . . . . . . RICHLANDS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . WR/DB
2 KYLE SEMONES . . . . . . . . . . . . . . GEORGE WYTHE . . . . . . . . . . . . . RB/LB
3 CHASE MORELOCK . . . . . . . . . . . APPALACHIA. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . RB/LB
4 ALBERT FAJARDO . . . . . . . . . . . . RICHLANDS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . DB
5 JOHN KELLY . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . GRUNDY HIGH . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . TEAM CAPTAIN
5 TREY MEADE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . CLINTWOOD. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . QB/WR
6 CODY TORRES . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . CLINTWOOD. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . WR/DB
7 AARON BALTHIS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . POUND . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . RB/S
8 NICK SMITH. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . LEBANON . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . QB/DB
9 CODY LOCKHART . . . . . . . . . . . . . RICHLANDS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . QB
10 JAKE HESS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ABINGDON . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . QB
10 JONATHAN WHITESIDES . . . . . . . PATRICK HENRY. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . QB/DB
11 EVAN STEWART . . . . . . . . . . . . . . J.I.BURTON . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . LB/TE
11 IAN FRYE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . VIRGINIA HIGH. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . K
12 LOGAN ELSWICK . . . . . . . . . . . . . ABINGDON . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . WR/DL
15 SETH PENNINGTON. . . . . . . . . . . J.I.BURTON . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . RB/LB
23 MANCEL POWERS . . . . . . . . . . . . CLINTWOOD. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . RB/LB
24 NATHAN LEE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ERVINTON. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . RB/LB
30 TYLER JUSTUS. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . GRUNDY HIGH . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . OL
31 JOSEPH VAUGHN . . . . . . . . . . . . . GATE CITY . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . RB/DB
32 CODY THOMAS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . RICHLANDS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . LB
40 PRINCETON GRAHAM. . . . . . . . . . MARION HIGH . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . LB
41 LOGAN RUSSELL. . . . . . . . . . . . . . GATE CITY . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . DL
42 AARON KISER . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . GATE CITY . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . DL
44 SETH CLARK. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . GATE CITY . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . LB
45 DILLON DeARMOND. . . . . . . . . . . HOLSTON . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . TE
50 CASEY BOOHER. . . . . . . . . . . . . . JOHN BATTLE. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C
51 EVAN CAMPBELL . . . . . . . . . . . . . LEBANON . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . LB
53 LUKE GREEN . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . JOHN BATTLE. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . DL
54 CODY DAVIDSON . . . . . . . . . . . . . GATE CITY . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . OL
54 JOHN DOTSON . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . CLINTWOOD. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C
55 RYAN PETELLE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . RYE COVE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . OL
55 JOSH LOCKLEAR . . . . . . . . . . . . . VIRGINIA HIGH. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . OL
56 DYLAN SMITH . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ERVINTON . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . LB/TE
58 DUSTIN BARTON . . . . . . . . . . . . . HONAKER . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . OL
60 JACOB WOLFORD . . . . . . . . . . . . MARION HIGH . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . DL
66 AMMI FIELDS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . CHILHOWIE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . DL
67 SHAINE FANNON . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ABINGDON . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . DL
68 JOSH SHOEMAKER . . . . . . . . . . . LEE HIGH . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . OL
70 NICK LEWIS. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . CLINTWOOD. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . OL/K
70 TYLER REYNOLDS . . . . . . . . . . . . HONAKER . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . K/DL
72 JORDON COLE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . COEBURN. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . OL/DL
75 JUSTIN LOPEZ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . VIRGINIA HIGH. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . TEAM CAPTAIN
78 TANNER MARSHALL. . . . . . . . . . . GRUNDY HIGH . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . OL/DL
81 JOSHUA VAN**** . . . . . . . . . . . . HONAKER . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . DL
84 RANDALL LAWSON. . . . . . . . . . . . POWELL VALLEY . . . . . . . . . . . . . . DL
87 ERIC HODGE. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .GRUNDY HIGH. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .LB
88 WILL LOWE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . RICHLANDS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . DL
99 JOHN DALIA. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . HOLSTON . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . DL



Here is the TN roster:

NO. NAME SCHOOL POS. OFF./DEF.
1 MAURICE CANNON . . . . . . . . . . . .DOBYNS BENNETT . . . . . . . . . . . . DB / WR. . D / O
2 KENAN WILHOIT . . . . . . . . . . . . . .SOUTH GREENE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . WR . . . . . . O
3 WILLIE CARMICHAEL . . . . . . . . . .GREENEVILLE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . QB / FS . . O / D
4 ANDREW JULIAN . . . . . . . . . . . . . .WEST GREENE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . WR . . . . . . O
5 SEAN SEABOLT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .DOBYNS BENNETT . . . . . . . . . . . . DB / QB . . D / O
6 HAYDEN CHANDLEY . . . . . . . . . . .DANIEL BOONE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . DB . . . . . . D
7 JALEN SHUFFLER . . . . . . . . . . . . .SOUTH GREENE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . WR . . . . . . O
8 BRANDON BURKEY . . . . . . . . . . . .DANIEL BOONE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . K . . . . . . . . O
9 ALEX PAYNE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .SCIENCE HILL . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . DE . . . . . . D
10 GANNON GLASPIE . . . . . . . . . . . . .SCIENCE HILL . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . WR . . . . . . O
11 BJ SPRADLIN . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .GREENEVILLE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . RB/LB . . . . O / D
12 HEATH HADEN . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .SULLIVAN SOUTH . . . . . . . . . . . . . QB . . . . . . O
13 SCOTT GIBSON . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .UNICOI COUNTY . . . . . . . . . . . . . . DB . . . . . . D
14 RUSTY CLARK . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .DOBYNS BENNETT . . . . . . . . . . . . LB . . . . . . . D
15 TYLER KELLEY . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .WEST GREENE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . WR . . . . . . O
16 KEVIN CONNELL . . . . . . . . . . . . . .DANIEL BOONE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . DE . . . . . . D
17 TAYLOR WINCHELL . . . . . . . . . . . .SULLIVAN CENTRAL . . . . . . . . . . . QB . . . . . . O
18 ALEC WHITEHEAD . . . . . . . . . . . . .ELIZABETHTON . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . LB/DB . . . . D
19 TYLER SHELL . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .CLOUDLAND. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . LB . . . . . . . D
20 BRANDON RUTHERFORD . . . . . . .TENNESSEE HIGH. . . . . . . . . . . . . K . . . . . . . . O
21 VICTOR SHEPHARD . . . . . . . . . . .DAVID CROCKETT . . . . . . . . . . . . . RB . . . . . . O
22 MARK JENNINGS . . . . . . . . . . . . .JOHNSON COUNTY. . . . . . . . . . . . RB . . . . . . O
23 RYAN MITCHELL . . . . . . . . . . . . . .SCIENCE HILL . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . WR . . . . . . O
24 ZACK MOFFITT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .VOLUNTEER. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . LB . . . . . . . D
27 CHAZ STORY . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .GREENEVILLE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . LB . . . . . . . D
28 JON LUCAS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .NORTH GREENE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . DB . . . . . . D
39 CAMERON DUCKWORTH . . . . . . .CHEROKEE. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . WR . . . . . . O
41 MATT COLE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .CLOUDLAND. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . LB . . . . . . . D
42 RODNEY RAMSEY . . . . . . . . . . . . .CHUCKEY DOAK . . . . . . . . . . . . . . TE. . . . . . . O
43 ZACK NAYLOR . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .UNAKA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . LB . . . . . . . D
44 MICHAEL BALL . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .WEST GREENE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . LB . . . . . . . D
45 COLT CLONINGER . . . . . . . . . . . . .SULLIVAN CENTRAL . . . . . . . . . . . LB . . . . . . . D
49 DOUG COOK . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .SULLIVAN NORTH . . . . . . . . . . . . . DL. . . . . . . D
50 CHUCK HARRIS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .DANIEL BOONE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . DL. . . . . . . D
51 JARREAD WHITEHEAD . . . . . . . . .ELIZABETHTON . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . DL. . . . . . . D
52 ETHAN GOOD . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .DANIEL BOONE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . OL. . . . . . . O
53 BOBBY QUINN . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .TENNESSEE HIGH. . . . . . . . . . . . . LB . . . . . . . D
54 TYLER WHITLOCK . . . . . . . . . . . . .ELIZABETHTON . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . OL. . . . . . . O
55 JORDAN TAYLOR . . . . . . . . . . . . . .UNAKA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . OL. . . . . . . O
56 TJ LYONS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .HAMPTON. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . DE . . . . . . D
57 LOGAN BAKER . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .HAPPY VALLEY . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . DE/LB . . . . D
58 DANNY HERMAN . . . . . . . . . . . . . .JOHNSON COUNTY. . . . . . . . . . . . DL. . . . . . . D
59 KEVIN NELSON . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .SCIENCE HILL . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . OL. . . . . . . O
61 CODY CARTER . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .TENNESSEE HIGH. . . . . . . . . . . . . OL. . . . . . . O
63 CHARLIE RUPERT . . . . . . . . . . . .DAVID CROCKETT . . . . . . . . . . . . . DL. . . . . . . D
65 NICK SOLT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .SULLIVAN SOUTH . . . . . . . . . . . . . DE . . . . . . D
67 BRANDON LEEPER . . . . . . . . . . . .DOBYNS BENNETT . . . . . . . . . . . . OL. . . . . . . O
69 AARON SHELLEY . . . . . . . . . . . . . .UNICOI COUNTY . . . . . . . . . . . . . . OL. . . . . . . O
72 FRANK MUTTER . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .VOLUNTEER. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . OL. . . . . . . O
74 AUSTIN HYDER . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .SULLIVAN SOUTH . . . . . . . . . . . . . OL. . . . . . . O
75 DAKOTA PRESNELL . . . . . . . . . . . .CLOUDLAND. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . DE . . . . . . D
76 JOSH STUBBLEFIELD . . . . . . . . . .CHEROKEE. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . DL. . . . . . . D
77 CHRIS PARDY . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .CHUCKEY DOAK . . . . . . . . . . . . . . OL. . . . . . . O
78 IAN NEWBRY . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .SULLIVAN NORTH . . . . . . . . . . . . . OL. . . . . . . O
82 ERIC ARNOLD . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .JOHNSON COUNTY. . . . . . . . . . . . TE. . . . . . . O
90 AARON BLEVINS . . . . . . . . . . . . . .TRI-CITIES CHRISTIAN . . . . . . . . . C. . . . . . . . O
92 TRAVIS ROGAN . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .TRI-CITIES CHRISTIAN . . . . . . . . . LS . . . . . . . O

I wish I was off so I could go. I believe Michael Sloan is also participating from Rye Cove.

What time this game start?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jason

What time this game start?

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1pm, it's at Science Hill. Tickets are available at the gate or any of the local HS's with kids participating for 6 bucks.

I dread this, im afraid the TN kids embarrass the VA guys

This year you might be right. The issue will be that neither offense will really be good, but kids like Carmichael don't need the offense to be good. You just put it in your best athletes hands and let them make a play. SWVA needs to hit the middle with Vaughn some and get the ball in Bradley Strongs hands as much as possible to have a chance.

Just wondering how many good player's that could really help the VA squad aren't playing because of basketball?

I got told today by a pretty good GC source that Vaughn is likely out of this game (ankle injury) and that Seth Clark is also out (foot injury).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 1inStripes

This year you might be right. The issue will be that neither offense will really be good, but kids like Carmichael don't need the offense to be good. You just put it in your best athletes hands and let them make a play. SWVA needs to hit the middle with Vaughn some and get the ball in Bradley Strongs hands as much as possible to have a chance.

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I don't know about that.... TN has some very good QB's besides Carmichael... Hayden, Winchell, and Seabolt can all play. Also Spradlin and the kid from Crockett (Shepard) are both very good RB's. Cannon is a big WR who can run. They have alot of weapons. I just don't know about up front....

I would have liked to have seen Crowder and Downs from TN High and Sensabaugh from DB in this game even though I have seen them during the year.....

Like Clarks Dad? I hadn't talked with Jospehs gf ( my cousin and neighbor about it), but I knew he hurt his ankle just before HT last Saturday.

I wonder how the weather has affected the game as far as practice goes? You have to wonder if some of these kids would be able to drive these distances to practice....

He was still limping well after the game. I can find out for certain though.

Vaughn is still playing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VOL61

I don't know about that.... TN has some very good QB's besides Carmichael... Hayden, Winchell, and Seabolt can all play. Also Spradlin and the kid from Crockett (Shepard) are both very good RB's. Cannon is a big WR who can run. They have alot of weapons. I just don't know about up front....

I would have liked to have seen Crowder and Downs from TN High and Sensabaugh from DB in this game even though I have seen them during the year.....

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Thats kind of my point though. These kids aren't practicing for this. Offenses are going to be very vanilla. No timing between the receivers and QBs. You are right about those other QBs, and that is just part of my point. TN will have more athletes to just go make plays Im afraid.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 1inStripes

Thats kind of my point though. These kids aren't practicing for this. Offenses are going to be very vanilla. No timing between the receivers and QBs. You are right about those other QBs, and that is just part of my point. TN will have more athletes to just go make plays Im afraid.

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yup, that is my biggest concern. with not a lot of practice time, the VA squad cant prepare to run an offense to grind out yards and keep those TN athletes off the field.

Vaughn helps a ton tho, hopefully he can get some yardage inside.
only one PV kid playing, i think VA would have been better off just letting Richlands play that team lol

Maybe a combo squad of Richlands, Clintwood, GC, and maybe Balthis from Pound, and Hess from Abingdon.

spradlin=beast that is all......... one game he had like 160 yards on 4 carries with 4 td's, believe it was grainger country

Spradlin isn't playing... He rolled his ankle at the Carson Newman all star game last week....

WPWT 870 AM 100.7 FM (carries Sullivan South's games) will broadcast the game according to what one of their guys posted on swvasports.
http://www.powertalk870.com/ArticleV...spx?ObjectId=1

WJHL might have some of the game that night, at 7.

So is JJ Kelly players boycotting it or just not invited? Noticed none on the roster

7-0 TN at the moment.

27-6 ht

According to tricities.com, the game will be shown from 7-9pm tonight on Channel 11.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Biggin

yup, that is my biggest concern. with not a lot of practice time, the VA squad cant prepare to run an offense to grind out yards and keep those TN athletes off the field.

Vaughn helps a ton tho, hopefully he can get some yardage inside.
only one PV kid playing, i think VA would have been better off just letting Richlands play that team lol

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Skimming through the list.. my biggest concerns is the best players havn't been picked... Coaches Favorites have been picked at least from Virginia, I've seen SEVERAL kids that have no Business being on an "All Star" Type team from Virginia, Hopefully Tennessee Picked Favorites and stuff or this game will be a BLOW - OUT looks like its gonna be.

You can't pick kids because you love them, you need to pick kids because they are ALL-STARS they may have well called this the

"Rainbow and Butterfly happy time Competition Hour Starring Some of our Favorite Student Athletes Extravoganza!!!!!"

This game appears to be as big a joke, as the All District Scratch my Back picks...

Im glad Tennessee is gonna beat their Brains in maybe next year they'll pick the best players.

Maybe some of the kids turned them down due to basketball or had other reasons. I would say an open invitation was made to about any talented player in the area as long as their HC checked into it.

That could be

Any final from this?

Ive got it on my DVR. I think it was 48-7. Hadn't watched it yet.

Watching it now and Thurman had no business coaching the VA team. This part of VA is well known for power running but the powers that be picked the ONLY coach we have that runs the Spread and no other offense! Even the announcers are talking about VA needing to line up and run it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 1inStripes

Maybe some of the kids turned them down due to basketball or had other reasons. I would say an open invitation was made to about any talented player in the area as long as their HC checked into it.

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The invitation was to any graduating senior all they had to do was say I want to go. I don't know how the final team was picked to get the roster to 50 but the flyer sent to the HC's said any senior. So I guess most hc's just told their seniors and any that wanted to got their name submitted. You could have had some coaches not even mention it to their players.

this game was horrendous just as i thought it would be.

There were a good number out for VA. Lockhart, qb from Richlands, came down with an ilness, Hess, qb from Abingdon, didn't play, both of which would have helped especially if they were just going to drop back in the gun and throw it around instead of tuning more toward what most of them were geared more toward. Seth Clark from GC didn't get to play due to an injury also. A couple of others were mentioned over on swvasports as to not being able to play. There were some who didn't play because of basketball as mentioned on here also. In the end, regardless of outcome, I echo sentiments of others that it should be more than just focus on the outcomes of these games.

Jason, it really wouldn't matter who is coach. When you are only scheduled to have 3 days of practice and 1 of them is iced out, you can't implement a real game plan so what difference does it make which offense is ran. The spread is easy to run, and allows athletes to make plays and this was a collection of athletes. TN had more athletes this year, and 1 more day of practice probably didn't hurt either.

That said, I would liked to have seen Balthis get more touches to see what all he could do. On TV I only remember seeing him get one carry.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 1inStripes

Jason, it really wouldn't matter who is coach. When you are only scheduled to have 3 days of practice and 1 of them is iced out, you can't implement a real game plan so what difference does it make which offense is ran. The spread is easy to run, and allows athletes to make plays and this was a collection of athletes. TN had more athletes this year, and 1 more day of practice probably didn't hurt either.

That said, I would liked to have seen Balthis get more touches to see what all he could do. On TV I only remember seeing him get one carry.

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The spread may be easier but of the schools there how many run the Spread full time? I would have liked to seen Mance from Richlands coaching VA. He runs the Spread also but knows when to abandon it if it is not working. I know a lot of fans went to that game to see Vaughn run the ball but he only touched it 3 times. Even the announcers said the VA team needed to rely more on Vaughn and incorporate the power running game in. Vaughn was not the only back we had on the VA team and would have loved to seen any of them get some carries. I know it would likely not changed the outcome but at least SWVA would have went down doing what they do best. We really cant blame not having enough practice days because TN had the same amount. VA should have been run first and pass if needed. If VA could run the ball well enough then it would have kept the big time players from TN off the field. Maybe with the run the score could have been closer but a loss is a loss. No matter if it be by 1 point or 100.

This was no surprise, as most everyone on here realized that the TN team had much, much more talent than the VA squad. The TN squad was so great, very talented while the VA kids were talented but nowhere near the talent that TN had.

Lots of teams run different offenses. Even more so, most have different terminologies for the same thing, so its hard to get anything done period in such a short period of time. Its not like TN was super crisp. They just took advantage of a lot of VA turnovers and some deep in their own territory. Neither team looked great.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 1inStripes

Lots of teams run different offenses. Even more so, most have different terminologies for the same thing, so its hard to get anything done period in such a short period of time. Its not like TN was super crisp. They just took advantage of a lot of VA turnovers and some deep in their own territory. Neither team looked great.

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I think we can both agree this game needs to be better organized. Play this game during the Spring or Summer so both teams can get about 5+ days practice in. It would also make sure we wont lose players to other sports. The format should be the same as any regular season game too.

What was different on the format other than kickoffs? I didn't really recognize anything other than that. Also, moving it to the spring or summer really won't make the game better. 5 days of practice when the boys are out of playing shape would probably be worse than 3 days of practice when they are already in playing shape.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 1inStripes

What was different on the format other than kickoffs? I didn't really recognize anything other than that. Also, moving it to the spring or summer really won't make the game better. 5 days of practice when the boys are out of playing shape would probably be worse than 3 days of practice when they are already in playing shape.

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One of the biggest differences was only being allowed one TE. Many teams in VA use 2. The biggest reason I would rather see the game moved to a different date is so neither team loses a player(s) to other sports. Hess from Abingdon who is one of the QBs that runs in the spread missed Saturday due to Basketball.

Thats stupid to do that IMO too, but you may not have those kids in the summer either due to prior commitments or already heading off to college. Thats not an absolute either way, and its better IMO to have the kids playing while they are in playing shape than not.