Crossover Help Needed With ANOTHER Pair of ALTECS

I need some help with the newest addition to my Altec family. I've mentioned in previous threads that gradually over the last couple of years I've sold all of the Altecs that I owned for my three stereo systems when I joined this community just over two years ago (a pair of 846 A Valencias (16 ohm), a pair of Heath/Altec AS-101's, a pair of Model 9's, and a pair of P.A. speakers --home made cabinets with various Altec VOTT drivers/crossovers installed--511B horns, 421 woofers, etc.....). Anyways, I still have the three vintage Altec stereo systems here in the house, but largely thanks to what I've learned from the good folks here, I've upgraded all the Altec speakers I listed above with the following (click on photos to enlarge)......

1)REC. ROOM stereo (mancave--finished basement) now has a pair of Model 19's instead of AS-101's.
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2010/03/12.jpg

2)RECORDING STUDIO (finished basement--the BIG room) now has a pair of Model 19's instead of the vintage Altec PA speakers in home-brew cabs.

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2011/01/18.jpg

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2011/01/19.jpg

3)LIVING ROOM STEREO--My latest purchase/upgrade. Just before the holidays, I bought a mint pair of Altec Model 14's from a guy here in upstate NY to replace the 846A Valencias that I had there.....

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2011/01/20.jpg

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2011/01/21.jpg

I'd been looking to upgrade the 846A's ever since I upgraded to Model 19's in my rec. room. These were the old 16 ohm 846A's with original diaphragms and caps (42 years old) which I'm sure could (should?) have all been replaced and upgraded. They just didn't get the high frequency extension or the deep thundering bass of the Model 19's. I did some research and of course read everything I could get my hands on here at this forum and scoured craigslist, ebay, etc. looking for something (preferably no more than a 12 hour drive round trip) that would fit the bill. One day, these Model 14's showed up on Craigslist. I read up on them, and called Bill at GPA to see if he offered recone kits and diaphragms for these speakers (in case I blew something in years to come, I didn't want to buy a pair of speakers that couldn't be serviced by GPA). He said yes they have the recone kits for the woofers and of course the diaphragms for the 902 h.f. drivers. While I had him on the phone, I told him I wanted to sell my 846A's because they just didn't get the high and low frequency extension that my Model 19's got and asked him if he thought the Model 14's would get better (deeper) bass and the extended H.F. response I wanted compared to the 846A's. I've been using Altec 15" woofers for so long, I admit I was skeptical whether or not I'd be happy with the 13.5" frame woofer in the Model 14's. Anyways, Bill said the 902 driver should be comparable to the Model 19 h.f. driver as far as high frequency extension/clarity, and he said the Model 14's used a really good woofer (I think he said it had a very deep voice coil?) and he said that the woofer, combined with the (more) modern tuning of the Model 14's cabinets (compared to the 846A tuning) does give them significantly better low end than the 846A's. I decided after talking to Bill that I needed to audition these Model 14's! I did a little additional research on the woofer and specs in the meantime and found from these specs that they do have a nice response on paper as well as what I heard from Bill (35-20,000 hz) and 95 dB at 1 one watt -- not quite as efficient as the 19's but still very efficient..... http://www.lansingheritage.org/image...l-14/page4.jpg

I also found this quote from Todd at the L.H. forum

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Todd W. White

The Model 14 woofer never had an official model number - only an internal Altec part number - because it was proprietary for the Model 14 and, as I recall, the 9842-8A/F Studio Monitor.

The Model 14 has really nice bass for a speaker it's size - if you are having problems with these in the Model 14 box, I don't think you'll find they work better in a different one.

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If Bill and Todd spoke that highly of it, I was ready to audition these speakers! Drove 3 hours, cranked them up, saw and heard that they were mint (with nice crisp highs and deep thundering bass), and drove 3 hours home in Altec Heaven for the entire ride home!

TO BE CONTINUED..........

OK, here's the part where I need help. In another thread here, I've been getting some great advice on upgrading my Model 19 crossovers. I plan on upgrading both pair of Model 19 crossovers--starting with one speaker--and once I do an A/B comparison to verify an improvement, then I'll do the other three Model 19's. Well, the thought occurred to me that my Model 14's aren't much younger than either pair of Model 19's and those crossovers could probably be upgraded with new caps etc. as well. I scoured the net and can't find a schematic for the Model 14 Crossovers anywhere. Does anyone have or know where I can find a crossover schematic for the Model 14's? These are the home version of the Altec 9842 Studio Monitors--exact same drivers and crossover in a similarly tuned cabinet. So, if anyone has a schematic for the crossover used in the Altec 9842 Studio Monitors--it's the same as the Model 14 crossover (Bowtie, do you have a pair of 9842's?).

Also, does anyone know if these crossovers would benefit from bypassing the ground lugs (connecting them with a wire) like people are doing with the Model 19 crossovers? Here's a closeup shot of the crossover (click to enlarge)......

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2011/01/22.jpg

In this photo I count what appear to be 7 (ground?) lugs--does anyone know if these should be connected with wire (or is it possible to tell from the photo?)? Thanks in advance again for any help/schematics anyone out there can give me on this upgrade.....

Awesome collection Dude. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by voice of the theater

Well, the thought occurred to me that my Model 14's aren't much younger than either pair of Model 19's and those crossovers could probably be upgraded with new caps etc. as well.

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Might want to consider doing more than just switching out components:
Altec Lansing Fourteen's - Page 9 - AudioKarma.org Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums

GM

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GM

Might want to consider doing more than just switching out components:
Altec Lansing Fourteen's - Page 9 - AudioKarma.org Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums
GM

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Thanks for the link GM--excellent thread! I'm not an AK member so I couldn't access any of the AK links or the "quote" feature, but I read the entire thread and there was a lot of interesting info there--and some familiar names as well--Bowtie, Analog Addict, Zilch, etc.....

It seems most people who've heard or own the Model 14's love them:

quoting Bowtie (page 1 of thread):
"Probably the next best sounding speaker to the model 19 where the late model home series is concerned, they will even impress non-Altec fans."

quoting Richard C. (page 2 of thread) "My Altec 19's are downstairs, but my model 14's are my main living room speakers - cause they fit better! The sound is similar, and most people are impressed by my 14's sound."

quoting daWoofer (page 2 of thread) "I would be pumped also. I remember well 25 years ago when I heard my first pair. Wish I had still bought them then, and wish I could get a deal on some today. Have fun."

And there are some people later on in the thread trying to figure out how the crossovers work and they're not sure they approve of the design. But I've heard the same type of conjecture about the Model 19 crossover design and I really believe that Altec "got it right" when they designed the Model 14's (and 19's) so I'd like to duplicate the original crossover by replacing the old caps with new ones of equal value. I think if you heard these things (psychoacoustics), you'd agree. I really like the h.f. compensation in both crossovers (compared to the older Altec crossovers I've owned), combined with the 802G and 902-8A driver and the tangerine phase plug, tuning of the cabs etc,--a "magic" combination IMHO for both the 14's and 19's.

Now that being said, obviously nothing is absolutely perfect. In fact, a wise man once said,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GM

Different strokes, but considering the popularity of the Iconic/Valencia and especially the M19 among the Altec cognoscenti that I don't share, I'd say I'm far more the odd man out than you. I just don't like using a 15" woofer this high up for vocals. Now a 9844 is a whole different ballgame.
GM

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by GM

You're welcome!
Don't know if I have any technical explanation beyond a 15" output this high up is nothing but break-up modes which is technically called distortion. Mostly though, it's about how we hear which is the same, yet not so much. Disconnect the horn and listen to music to get an exaggerated version of how I perceive the woofer's underlying 'grunge' that the HF horn doesn't completely mask for me unless XO'd lower to a larger horn.
GM

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After owning these Model 14's for a while, I can see the truth in your quotes. I consider Model 14's and 19's to be an apple and oranges comparison--not necessarily cut and dry better or worse. I'd say the high end in the 14's is easily equal to the Model 19's--the 902-8A h.f. drivers sound amazing combined with the Mantaray horn. And I have to admit, I've owned mainly 811B and 511B horns and was skeptical about the Mantaray--that is, until I heard it. It's sound quality in conjunction with the 902-8A is on par with the Model 19's, but it's dispersion characteristics are much better for my living room (where I have them located). I have a long couch and a love seat in that room--and you can sit ANYWHERE on the couch or love seat and the high end sounds amazing--there is a much wider sweet spot compared to the 811B or 511B Altec horns. Hopefully this doesn't sound like sacrilege to anyone--I'm not saying the 14's have a better high frequency response/sound compared to the 19's, just better dispersion characteristics (which is only beneficial in certain applications--like my living room since it's not a particularly huge room, for example).

As far as bass response, with all other things equal (acoustics, EQ settings on your amp/equalizer, etc.) IMHO, the 19's win. However, I've found that by adding a little extra EQ in the 30-40hz range, the 14's rival the 19's as far as low end sound quality at the volume levels that I listen to them at. I'm sure that if I were to crank them up to an extremely loud level, the 19's, having 15" woofers, would win over the 14's (with 13.5" frame woofers) at any EQ setting. I do crank them up to what I consider to be very loud on occasion, and even at those levels with a little extra bass EQ at the 30-40 hz range, they rival the 19's in bass "sound"/response. The "interplay" between the woofer, cabinet tuning, and crossover is that good.

GM, here's where your two quotes come into play. As far as midrange, I have to give the Model 14's a slight edge (at least until I recap the 19's, then I'll have to compare again--although I plan on recapping the 14's as well!). I've got to think that it's because of what you said--which I roughly interpreted as meaning you're pushing the ("accurate/clean") upper frequency limits of most 15" woofers when your crossover point is 1200 hz. Yes, the 19's sound amazing, but there is a certain (subtle) clarity and presence that the 14's have over them in the midrange that is really only noticeable to me in certain recordings (it's a very slight/subtle difference as far as I can tell listening to mainly rock music--may be more or less noticeable with different genres of course). I've got to think it's due to the fact that the smaller woofer is more suited to reproducing the upper midrange frequencies (the Model 14's have a 1500 hz crossover point). In fact, in the AK thread that you linked me to people rave about the midrange "sound" from these speakers.

Quote from Moorden2004 (who started the thread when he had a line on some 14's, and then found the woofers needed refoaming) Page 7 of thread... "
My cross-over pots were fine - no scratching nor intermittents. The new surround kits were dead easy to install (who knew?). And, like you, I'm amazed at the quality of the sound field. Solo guitars seem to be so close you can touch them. The bass is so clean and controlled I've shut down my Yamaha sub-woofer. Not needed. But it's the mid and high range from those horns that captivate you -- clearly a well designed driver/horn combo."

Richard C "I especially like how guitar sounds on my 14's. Blues - Gov't Mule, Joe Bonnamassa, Clapton, Robin Trower, Dave Mason, etc. it cuts thru nice!"

Moordon 2004 "In my very limited experience with these 14's I can concur that guitar and solo voice are startling! You can almost reach out and grab them -- or so it seems. Placement is interesting too. In my room they do like the no-wall-coupling position. Mine are 10" from the wall behind them and a few feet from the side walls. This seems to be ideal. My senses can't tell the difference with and without my powered sub (Yamaha) on, so that alone tells me plenty."
Paul

Anyways, you get the idea. The people who listen to these speakers love them--hence my desire to not make any changes to the crossovers or drivers (other than "fresh" caps). Personally, if I were on a desert island (that had electricity!) and had to pick ONE pair of speakers, I'd pick the Model 19's over the Model 14's. They have an edge IMHO (and are big enough to be more easily converted into a life boat), but depending on the application I still think it can be an apple and oranges comparison. The highs are comparable (but the 14's have better dispersion characteristics), the mids in the 14's have a slight edge (probably the smaller woofer), but the 19's have a slight edge as far as low end unless you "tweak" your EQ for the 14's. I can honestly say, I prefer the 14's in my living room where h.f. dispersion is key due to the layout--the mids and bass sound great in that room as well. Downstairs, I love the 19's in my rec. room and in the recording studio. It will be interesting to see what new caps do to the h.f. response of the 14's (if I can get some help/schematic--HINT HINT!), and the h.f./mid response of the 19's (pretty much ready to go with their upgrade).......

You're welcome!

So join!

Yes, the Mantaray CD horns have a much flatter power response over a wider arc than the antiquated rising on axis expo horns.

Right, all else equal, a 15" trumps a 12", so use two 12" to 'have your cake and eat it too'. :D

A 15" is beaming at 90 deg around 900-1000 Hz depending on its design, so for me this is its XO limit. For a 12", it's around 1350-1500 Hz, so as good as it may sound to some, the M19's ~1200 Hz XO is a 'make do' design to my way of thinking; but it's pretty obvious the designer(s) were given a tight budget, so all things considered, it's an excellent design. A pity they weren't allowed to switch to a Mantaray when the 416-8C was swapped in and drop the XO point.

I tried, Dick (Richard C., a local to me) drew up the stocker for both the M14 and M15 as well as his modded designs with the latter measuring more M19 like IIRC and posted it all on his web page.

GM

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GM

I tried, Dick (Richard C., a local to me) drew up the stocker for both the M14 and M15 as well as his modded designs with the latter measuring more M19 like IIRC and posted it all on his web page.
GM

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Thanks again, GM! Please let me know if/when you hear from him/obtain the schematic(s).....

I just read through some of that thread at AK again, and it appears there were three versions of the Model 14 crossover that Altec used during the few years 14's were in production (mainly cap. value changes in the different versions). So, I'd still like to see a schematic, but I guess the only way to be sure I'm matching old capacitors with new ones of the same value is to read the values off of the old caps (go figure!). I still could use some assistance from anyone who'd like to offer it. Here's the photo of the crossover (click to enlarge)
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2011/01/22.jpg

Ok, I've looked over the caps and tried to read values off of them (and photograph them).

Here's a close up of one of the caps

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2011/01/27.jpg

It says 470 uF on it. I asked my friend about the extremely high uF value of this cap and he said (more or less): "Don't replace this cap. A cap of that high of a value is going to be in the "shunt" / parallel circuit (which is around the series, not in the series). Therefore, the audio signal doesn't even pass through this capacitor and because of that it's value should still be at least close enough so as not to affect the sound. He told me to replace the smaller value capacitors in this particular crossover design as those caps are in the series (in line) and sound actually passes through them and is greatly affected by them if their values start to change (even a slight change can be bad in those caps)." Does this (Greek) make sense?

BTW, just noticed this discussion of the 470 cap on the AK thread. Quoting Morden2004 (page 6) "I pulled a cross-over and I see there is just a single electrolytic; a 470 uF 50 VDC standard cap. I think I'll replace them both with Polypropylene capacitors. Any thoughts on this?"

Quoting Richard C on page 6 "They are part of the power limiting protection circuit. Think of those as power supply filter caps that charge up "only" at high volume levels, from the voltage delivered to the loudspeaker. I doubt anything will be gained from changing these out.
Do you know how much 470 uf of polypropylene cap would cost AND how big it all would be?
Richard C. "

OK, here's the next two capacitors up close.

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2011/01/28.jpg

I could make out 2 uF on one of them and 10 uF on the other one. These are both capacitors right? (and could be replaced with Solen 400VDC "fast caps" with values of 10 uFand 2 uF)? It was very hard for me to read what was written on them other than the 10 uF and 2 uF--there's no chance they're anything other than capacitors is there (I'm the first to admit I'm a complete novice at replacing/identifying components like these)?

Next Two Photos (click to enlarge)

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2011/01/29.jpg

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2011/01/30.jpg

What is the rectangular "thing" in these two photos (please excuse the highly technical terminology I'm using) Not a capacitor, right? Leave it alone, right?

Last photo

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2011/01/31.jpg

What is the big black thing in this photo? Not a capacitor, right? Leave it alone, right? So, if I have figured this out correctly (hmmmm), I really just need to replace the 2 uF and 10uF capacitor in each Model 14 crossover (judging by my first photo that shows the whole crossover)? Can anyone chime in and let me know if I'm even close to being right here?

Lastly, the capacitors in my Model 19 crossovers are soldered to a "post". I'll be replacing all of the capacitors. It looks like it will be easy to "unsolder" them and solder in the new caps. If you look at the first photo in this post, the leads on the capacitors in the Model 14 crossovers come through from the other side of the circuit board. I'm not comfortable soldering directly to a circuit board. That being said, is it acceptable (although I know it's probably not the best way) to just clip the leads from the old caps while being sure to leave enough of the old leads to allow me to just solder the new caps to them (solder the leads of the new caps to the portion of the old leads I leave intact/attached to the board)? BTW, I'll be using 2% silver solder with tin and lead in it for the soldering--is that ok? Thanks again in advance for any help--the lives of innocent Altecs are at stake.....

Seems like you have a pretty good handle on the capacitor replacement. The "big black thing" is a resistor and looks to be well made.
I would definitely try to mount the new caps in the through holes. If you haven't had at it with solder wick, this is probably a good learning platform, lot's of free space, lead count low, and I would assume the board is amenable to the work.
If it was me, I'd check the values of all the resistors just to be on the safe side. That might mean lifting a lead from each one so may be more work than what you're willing to tackle.
I would also replace the electrolytic caps because of their age and the low price for quality replacements.

I've been using these Axon True Caps and they seem to work fine (built by Solen). I've only used them in a couple of situations but they are as good as any other film cap I've used and the price is right.

Good luck with the crossover rehab!

Richard C is certainly the man when it comes to practical Model 14 info .

Unfortunately his personal web-page is no-more .
He still maintains a photo-bucket account ( with good info ) , here !


He has stated there were 3 basic M14 crossovers ( and then nicely provided proof with this pic ).

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/

His comments about the M14 sounding like his M19s were made after he redesigned the original crossover to this ;


http://s266.photobucket.com/albums/i...o/M14xover.jpg

- ( it's no surprise the "voicing" of the M14 became closer to that of the M19 /// his schematic clearly owes its design origins to the M19s network )

- FWIW, previous to his new networks being implemented ( he commented that ) he found the sound of the stock M14 to be fairly fatiguing ( according to some posts I read ) .

- Based on his experience, ( & if these were mine ), I'd be building up a pair of fully new crossovers ( not just recapping ) .

<> EarlK

ps ; here's the same schematic showing voltage drive ( for the HF section ) of Richards redesigned network ;

http://s266.photobucket.com/albums/i...zobel-HF-1.jpg

I had saved some of Richard C's original network studies onto an older computer .

Here they are ( with the Model 15s schematic thrown in as a bonus ) .

(A) First, 2 flavours of the M14s original network minus the protection circuitry.

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc.../2011/01/1.png

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc.../2011/01/2.png

(B) Then Richards' redesigned network .

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc.../2011/01/3.png

(C) Then the Model 15 stock network .


http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc.../2011/01/4.png

<> EarlK

Read this thread to understand why Richard went to all this work to create new networks for his M14s .

Here's an excerpt ;

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Richard C

With that said "IF I didn't somehow know that there was great potential in my Model 14's - I would have sold them after 5 minutes of listening". I felt sick for awhile! All the time gathering up components and researching. I couldn't believe that anyone would listen to these without major work. The upper mids were way too bright, so I got my Stereophile test CD, a tripod, a SPL meter. I measured the response at about 10' (where I listen in my room). I immediatly found that what I heard, I could also see.

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CLASSIC ! :D

- I'm confident that I would share the same reaction when listening to a network clearly designed for either P.A. or Theatre installs ( no real VHF ) .

<> cheers

Earl, thank you for posting these photos/schematics!! You really came through for me!! From the photo you provided, my Model 14 crossovers are clearly identical to the one on the left of the photo. In fact, one of mine has the purple 470 uF resistor (same color as in all 3 photos), and one has a grey 470 uF resistor which looks to be made by the same manufacturer who possibly changed color of their caps at a certain point in time from purple to grey?
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/
Anyways, as far as Richard C's decision to build an entirely new crossover for his Model 14's--obviously I respect his ability to do so but I don't share his reason(s) for doing so. I really don't want to turn this thread into a debate of "whether or not to build a better mousetrap", because as is pretty much common knowledge, personal preferences (regarding which speakers/crossovers sound "best" to you) and psychoacoustics trump "paper and pen". All I can say is that I LOVE the way these stock crossovers sound. Richard complains about the midrange sound from the stock crossovers, but most people who've posted about them here and at AK who've heard Model 14's rave about the overall sound quality--and many rave about their midrange sound in particular (that vintage Altec midrange magic). Obviously, if Richard doesn't like their midrange sound--more power to him as far as building new crossovers, but he is the minority in his opinion (not that being in the minority makes him "wrong" of course--he apparently has unique tastes compared to numerous other posters who've heard these speakers). I'm sure he has a very good explanation as far as why building a new crossover that more closely resembles the Model 19 stock crossover might be a good idea--but my own admittedly empirical take on this would be that the Model 19 uses a VERY different woofer, VERY different horn, different h.f. driver, cabinet, tuning etc. (compared to the Model 19) and I would think that it might make sense to have a very different crossover design for the Model 14 as compared to the very different Model 19. Perhaps the only way the good folks at Altec could get the Model 14's to sound "right" to them, (considering the fact of how different they were from the 19's) was to use a crossover design that more closely resembles "a network clearly designed for either P.A. or Theatre installs". After all, presumably their goal (as you know 14's look just like "junior" 19's) was to build a smaller pair of speakers (compared to the 19's) that have an overall sound as close to as "good" as the 19's as possible (and IMHO, they succeeded based on my own A/B comparisons of Model 19's vs. 14's). Great sound is presumably the desired end result, not a crossover that resembles the Model 19 crossover--instead, a crossover that would work with these very different drivers and horns that would produce a similar great sounding speaker.....
Here's some new quotes from this hostboard that I found while reading the thread you pointed me at today (and from another Altec hostboard thread) that illustrate how much these people love the (midrange) sound of the 14's....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jim Butler

The 14's are much more like the classic Altec sound of clear midrange and remarkable efficiency. This is my first listen to a CD Mantaray horn. I am luvvin it. The spatial soundstage is precise and vivid. I have been playing a number of Cowboy Junkies tunes and Margo Timmons voice is ghostly-real.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by John Speaker

Indeed, these speakers are fantastic sounding, far superior to the model 15's I also own. Despite the supposed handicap of their "plastic non-pro horns" they were an integral part of my studio set up along with some Dahlquist DQ10's and some Meyer powered enclosures. They are far more appropriate for the average sized room than the Model 19's which can quickly overwhelm the listener in such situations.

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And the quotes from my previous post in this thread regarding 14's with stock crossovers

Quote:

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Originally Posted by voice of the theater

quoting Bowtie (page 1 of thread):
"Probably the next best sounding speaker to the model 19 where the late model home series is concerned, they will even impress non-Altec fans."

quoting daWoofer (page 2 of thread) "I would be pumped also. I remember well 25 years ago when I heard my first pair. Wish I had still bought them then, and wish I could get a deal on some today. Have fun."

Quote from Moorden2004 (who started the thread when he had a line on some 14's, and then found the woofers needed refoaming) Page 7 of thread... "
My cross-over pots were fine - no scratching nor intermittents. The new surround kits were dead easy to install (who knew?). And, like you, I'm amazed at the quality of the sound field. Solo guitars seem to be so close you can touch them. The bass is so clean and controlled I've shut down my Yamaha sub-woofer. Not needed. But it's the mid and high range from those horns that captivate you -- clearly a well designed driver/horn combo."

Moordon 2004 "In my very limited experience with these 14's I can concur that guitar and solo voice are startling! You can almost reach out and grab them -- or so it seems. Placement is interesting too. In my room they do like the no-wall-coupling position. Mine are 10" from the wall behind them and a few feet from the side walls. This seems to be ideal. My senses can't tell the difference with and without my powered sub (Yamaha) on, so that alone tells me plenty."
Paul

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I firmly believe that by the time Altec had designed the Model 19 (a masterpiece, IMHO), they really had a handle on what it takes to get a speaker system to sound unbelievably good. They had (more) modern cabinet tuning by this time, tangerine phase plugs, more effective h.f. compensation in the crossover, "better" h.f. drivers, etc. (and apparently a real "feel" for what sounds great). In fact, after buying two pair of Model 19's, my prerequisite for my third pair of Altecs that I was shopping for was that it have the above ingredients. I truly believe it was those ingredients that set the 19's (and the 14's) apart from my 846A's, As 101's, all original A7's (I owned a mint pair of all original A7's back in the 90's), etc. I think the 15's were nice, but there is a reason they were replaced with the 14's (much better/more powerful woofer with 3" voice coil, better horn (Mantaray), etc.). One of the first things I did when I got my second pair of Model 19's home was set them up next to my first pair and do A/B comparisons to make sure the new pair sounded equally amazing to my first pair--and they do. (a photo from that day)
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc.../2010/11/2.jpg
When I got my Model 14's home, I set them up right next to one pair of my Model 19's to do some A/B comparisons. Other than the fact that the 19's are a little more efficient (and therefore I had to provide a very slight power increase to the 14's to get them to play at the same level), they sound remarkably similar to both pair of Model 19's that I own. Yes, if you turn the midrange pot all the way up on the 19's, there is too much midrange--I turn the pot down a tad on them towards the "optimal" position. Same goes for the 14's. If you turn the midrange pot on them down a tad (I love how the 14's and 19's have a treble and midrange pot on them -- very unusual for two way speakers), the midrange sounds remarkable on them -- not any louder/honkier/etc. than the midrange on the 19's. They just plain sound amazing. The proof is in the pudding..... I would have to second the sentiment from Bowtie's quote earlier in this thread --"Probably the next best sounding speaker to the model 19 where the late model home series is concerned, they will even impress non-Altec fans." As an afterthought, I wonder if Richard C's 14's have the 23744 diaphragms--mine do. If his don't that could be a factor in how his 14's sound. However, I am inclined to believe it's more his personal taste, not his diaphragms. I'm not at all ungrateful for your input Earl, quite the contrary, I am unbelievably grateful for your sharing the photos, schematics, info, and uncensored opinions with me. We may have to just agree to disagree as far as the merit of building a better mousetrap. If you could hear these 14's (if I set them up right next to a pair of my 19's for you), you might just say that based on the sound of this amazing speaker system, that you agree with me (and with most people who've heard the 14's that have posted here and at AK) that just like the 19's, Altec really got it right when they designed/built the 14's.

There are a pair of these locally for $400. They sure don't look this nice though.

Ron

Here's the schematic that shows the 10 uF and 2 uF capacitors.
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc.../2011/01/5.png

Quote:

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Originally Posted by westend9

Seems like you have a pretty good handle on the capacitor replacement.

---

So, westend, Earl K, or GM, (or anyone else who wants to chime in), I'm correct in my asumption that these are the two capacitors shown in the schematic above (I can read 2 uF, and 10 uF on them), and that they are indeed capacitors, and that they are the two capacitors I should focus on as far as replacement (not worry about the 470 uF capacitor)?

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2011/01/28.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by westend9

I would also replace the electrolytic caps because of their age and the low price for quality replacements.

---

Thanks for the heads up! These crossovers sound great now--if I hear a noticeable improvement after putting in the two Solens, I may at that point decide to delve into the electrolytics and resistors. Unlike the Model 19 crossovers, it appears to be easier to do these in stages if I decide to--whereas with the 19's I'd have to remove the newly installed capacitors if I wanted to go back later and replace the resistors..... From what I understand, resistors are less vulnerable/subject to changes in value compared to capacitors so they are not my top priority in the 14's crossovers at this point....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by westend9

I would definitely try to mount the new caps in the through holes. If you haven't had at it with solder wick, this is probably a good learning platform, lot's of free space, lead count low, and I would assume the board is amenable to the work.

---

I've never used a solder wick--and this is not a good learning platform for me. I'd like to learn (and make my mistakes) on a Sparkomatic crossover! That would be a good learning platform----not on my Altecs. If you ask my wife, on certain days she probably thinks I love my Altecs more than her..... If I fry something on these crossovers due to a mistake, she had better remove all the breakables from the house :doh: I gave the short version of how I found these Model 14's earlier in this thread (if you can believe anything I post is capable of being a short version!). The long version is that the pair I bought (6 hour round trip drive) was actually the SECOND pair of Model 14's I auditioned. The first pair was close to Philadelphia (9 hour round trip drive). I drove 4 1/2 hours to get there, the guy had insisted these were mint. I got there (brought my own amp and CD player and CD's), turned them on and one horn was very muffled sounding compared to the other. To make matters worse, one woofer was louder than the other as well. I figured a GPA recone would fix the woofer, but had no idea what was going on with the crossovers/drivers/diaphragms as far as what was wrong with the muffled high end. We actually swapped out crossovers on my request and it didn't swap the problem so it wasn't the crossovers. But I did the math, with his asking price plus woofer recone plus two new diaphragms or two new hf drivers from GPA I'd be paying WAY more than the speakers are worth. I know I'd never be happy buying one diaphragm or one h.f. driver. The first thing I do when I audition a pair of speakers is A/B them and they have to sound identical to each other for me to be happy. If not, they'd at least have to be inexpensive enough for me to be able to justify buying a pair of diaphragms or h.f. drivers, etc. I know buying one diaphragm or one h.f. driver just wouldn't work for me--it will (almost) never sound identical to it's (30 + year old) mate so I have to buy stuff like that in pairs. Luckily, both pair of my Model 19's and the Model 14's I ended up buying later were identical sounding pairs. Anyways, I drove home very p*ssed off, to say the least. The point I'm getting at, is that I finally have the speaker collection I want (two pair of 19's and a pair of 14's). All the buying and selling/upgrading that got me to this point had it's ups and downs. I don't want to buy any more speakers (maybe EVER--I'm that happy with the three pair I own). So, if I fry a crossover and have to scour ebay / craigslist for a crossover (and hope it's the "right" version of the three they made for the 14's--I really like how this version sounds), I'll be crying in my cheerios.

That being said, is it acceptable (although I know it's probably not the best way) to just clip the leads from the old caps while being sure to leave enough of the old leads to allow me to just solder the new caps to them (solder the leads of the new caps to the portion of the old leads I leave intact/attached to the board)?

Should I use lead free solder? Any recommendations from anyone on solder? Should it have silver in it? (don't want a solder wars thread but a recommendation would be helpful!) Thanks again to EVERYONE, time for me to shovel some snow.....

Do not use Lead Free solder. It's a pain in the butt and requires a lot more heat. Your speakers do not need to be ROHS compliant.
I would use solder with either 2 or 3% silver.

Ron

Great Ron--thanks for the tip! Do you (or anyone else) have any answers for the few questions in my last post (other than that question)?
P.S. If only "We're An American Band" by GFR had more cowbell in it!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by voice of the theatre

Earl, thank you for posting these photos/schematics!! You really came through for me!!

---

You're welcome .

I'll respond later to a few of the things that you brought up , perhaps tomorrow morning .

Quote:

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So, westend, Earl K, or GM, (or anyone else who wants to chime in), I'm correct in my asumption that these are the two capacitors shown in the schematic above (I can read 2 uF, and 10 uF on them), and that they are indeed capacitors, and that they are the two capacitors I should focus on as far as replacement (not worry about the 470 uF capacitor)?

---

Yes the 2 caps in this picture are the ones represented within Richards' schematic .
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2011/01/28.jpg


I wouldn't just cut the leads to the caps ( I prefer to save these things with all the leads intact ).
FWIW, IME, they are pretty decent sounding ( ie ; quite mellow when compared to any plastic film type ) .

I would remove them in one piece and set them aside .

<> cheers

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Earl K

Yes the 2 caps in this picture are the ones represented within Richards' schematic .
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2011/01/28.jpg


I wouldn't just cut the leads to the caps ( I prefer to save these things with all the leads intact ).......
I would remove them in one piece and set them aside .
<> cheers

---

Makes sense, it would be nice to be able to put them back into the crossovers if I find I like them (the orginal caps) better than the new Solens.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Earl K

.....FWIW, IME, they are pretty decent sounding ( ie ; quite mellow when compared to any plastic film type )......

---

I'm assuming the Solen 400V polypropylene capacitors are of the "plastic film" variety that you're referring to? I have read that some people find this type of cap to be harsh sounding, but others swear by them. Thanks for making a point of bringing this to my attention--I believe it's the first time it's come up in either of my current "crossover upgrade" threads. I have to be honest that part of me just wants to leave all three pair of speakers exactly the way they are, they sound amazing as is. I've heard so many people saying that if you replace old caps the improvement in sound quality is surprising. So, I've decided to give it a try on ONE Model 19 speaker and ONE Model 14 speaker, and if I hear an improvement, I'll do the other four speakers immediately--if the sound quality gets worse, the original caps are going right back in. In that case, I've only spent a few bucks to learn that I already had what I wanted all along (Wizard of Oz type theme)..... There is a place here locally that says they can get the Solens for me (with about a 5 day turnaround time). I'll be sure to report the outcome.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Earl K

You're welcome .

I'll respond later to a few of the things that you brought up , perhaps tomorrow morning .....

---

Uh Oh--I'm sure a lot of my conjecture in that post is just that--conjecture. I probably should have simply stated that I (and many others who've posted here and at AK) love the sound of the 14's with their stock crossovers and I believe the stock crossover combined with the drivers/horn/cabinet/tuning is an amazing ("magical"?) combination even if it was arrived at by accident or even if it was partially due to budgetary concerns. I could have left out all the conjecture/theorizing....... Sure would have made for an easier read too!! Thanks again Earl and everyone else who's been "coaching" me in these two threads.....

Still one last question I remembered before I do this upgrade....

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2011/01/22.jpg

In this photo I count what appear to be 7 (ground?) lugs--does anyone know if these should be connected with wire like people are doing with the Model 19's (or is it possible to tell from the photo or from Richard's schematic?)? Also, no one has chimed in about my earlier question regarding leaving the 470 uF capacitor alone instead of replacing it--any thoughts? Thanks again.......

The only thing I can see 7 of are rivets. I'll go out on a limb and assume that there are circuit traces on the flip side of the board (that I've never seen) which will have the ground. The 19s are point to point wired with the attachments at actual lugs. There are pictures on this site of the 19 Xover.
The 470uF cap is for the protection circuit and is probably OK.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zelgall

The only thing I can see 7 of are rivets. I'll go out on a limb and assume that there are circuit traces on the flip side of the board (that I've never seen) which will have the ground. The 19s are point to point wired with the attachments at actual lugs. There are pictures on this site of the 19 Xover.
The 470uF cap is for the protection circuit and is probably OK.

---

Yes the circuit traces are on the flip side of the board. As you mentioned, I'm sure they have the ground so I'll leave the rivets (lugs) alone in this crossover. Good--one less thing to solder!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by voice of the theater

Still one last question I remembered before I do this upgrade....

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2011/01/22.jpg

In this photo I count what appear to be 7 (ground?) lugs--does anyone know if these should be connected with wire like people are doing with the Model 19's (or is it possible to tell from the photo or from Richard's schematic?)? Also, no one has chimed in about my earlier question regarding leaving the 470 uF capacitor alone instead of replacing it--any thoughts? Thanks again.......

---

An easy way to access the quality of the ground plane (lugs to plate) is to put a meter across varoius points and measure resistance. From the pictures, I think everything looks secure and no oxidation between metals. I have been known to give contact points like these a very quick squirt of Deoxit Gold or any other deoxidizing spray that is at my disposal.

I think you're being a little too apprehensive about desoldering the caps, it is very easy. There are lots of online soldering/desoldering tutorials but I could sum it up in a few words: Place soldering wick on soldered connection, place tip of iron on top of wick, watch solder flow onto wick. You might need to flow the solder a couple of times into the wick, I usually have a cutter on hand to trim the wick that contains the solder off of the roll. Lacking the courage to do this, and considering future replacement with the originals, you could cut the leads and twist together. It's your gear but if you want it done right, you should take the old caps off the boards and solder in the new ones. Maybe practice on a piece of something that has little value, even a piece of solder.

As I posted, my call would be to replace the 470uf electrolytic. There is no sense in keeping an aged cap in the circuit when I have an iron heated and the cost of a replacement is less than a dollar. I believe the cap is in the protection circuit so is not going to alter the sound, it is just a ticking time bomb.

Personally, I would remove the protection circuitry....unless you have some sort of mondo power amp and kids who like to crank the volume all the way.

Ron

Quote:

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Originally Posted by westend9

An easy way to access the quality of the ground plane (lugs to plate) is to put a meter across varoius points and measure resistance. From the pictures, I think everything looks secure and no oxidation between metals. I have been known to give contact points like these a very quick squirt of Deoxit Gold or any other deoxidizing spray that is at my disposal.

I think you're being a little too apprehensive about desoldering the caps, it is very easy. There are lots of online soldering/desoldering tutorials but I could sum it up in a few words: Place soldering wick on soldered connection, place tip of iron on top of wick, watch solder flow onto wick. You might need to flow the solder a couple of times into the wick, I usually have a cutter on hand to trim the wick that contains the solder off of the roll. Lacking the courage to do this, and considering future replacement with the originals, you could cut the leads and twist together. It's your gear but if you want it done right, you should take the old caps off the boards and solder in the new ones. Maybe practice on a piece of something that has little value, even a piece of solder.

As I posted, my call would be to replace the 470uf electrolytic. There is no sense in keeping an aged cap in the circuit when I have an iron heated and the cost of a replacement is less than a dollar. I believe the cap is in the protection circuit so is not going to alter the sound, it is just a ticking time bomb.

---

I ordered all the parts for all 6 speakers today, locally. They told me to expect a phone call in about 5 days when the capacitors, etc. come in. It added up to about $160.00 for all 6 speakers but I figure that's only about $50 a pair so I'm happy. As soon as they call I'll pick up the caps and solder them into the first speaker for testing (A/B comparisons) the same day. I didn't even know that the 470 uF was an electrolytic cap. I'm glad you said something. I just called and had them add two 470 uF 100v electrolytic capacitors to my order. The ones in there now are 50 volt, I assume there's no problem switching to 100 volt is there? They are 470 uF, same value as the ones that are in there now....

So, the lugs/rivets are ground lugs/rivets? Should I solder a wire between all seven rivets just to be sure I've got a good common ground (similar to what I'll be doing with my Model 19's)? Or is this not necessary with these crossovers?

Wise choice, replacing the electrolytic, you don't want a potential failure point in your recapped networks, correct?

If the rivets rare connected to the plate securely (and this appears to be the case), there should be no worries. The construction is different than the Model 19 and there isn't a picture of the mask side of the board, at present. This would show if the ground plane of the network board is grounded to the plate which is attached by rivet. As I mentioned, probing between ground points, measuring resistance, will turn up any abnormality's. To me, it is a non-issue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by voice of the theater

I ordered all the parts for all 6 speakers today, locally. They told me to expect a phone call in about 5 days when the capacitors, etc. come in. It added up to about $160.00 for all 6 speakers but I figure that's only about $50 a pair so I'm happy. As soon as they call I'll pick up the caps and solder them into the first speaker for testing (A/B comparisons) the same day. I didn't even know that the 470 uF was an electrolytic cap. I'm glad you said something. I just called and had them add two 470 uF 100v electrolytic capacitors to my order. The ones in there now are 50 volt, I assume there's no problem switching to 100 volt is there? They are 470 uF, same value as the ones that are in there now....

So, the lugs/rivets are ground lugs/rivets? Should I solder a wire between all seven rivets just to be sure I've got a good common ground (similar to what I'll be doing with my Model 19's)? Or is this not necessary with these crossovers?

---

I might be missing something here. I personally can't see any ground lugs in the photo. All of the common rivets are probably not current paths. Maybe a photo of the opposite side of the crossover board would help?

In the mod 19 there are four ground lugs. Each of the ground lugs is riveted to the board and has a wire soldered to it. (the current path is through the lugs) Connecting these four lugs together with a common wire eliminates any resistance due to oxidation between the ground lug and the board. You can also use deoxit as some have mentioned or you can physically tweak the lug to make a clean connection as long as it's not loosely connected to the board. Then measure for any resistance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rontec

I might be missing something here. I personally can't see any ground lugs in the photo. All of the common rivets are probably not current paths. Maybe a photo of the opposite side of the crossover board would help?

In the mod 19 there are four ground lugs. Each of the ground lugs is riveted to the board and has a wire soldered to it. (the current path is through the lugs) Connecting these four lugs together with a common wire eliminates any resistance due to oxidation between the ground lug and the board. You can also use deoxit as some have mentioned or you can physically tweak the lug to make a clean connection as long as it's not loosely connected to the board. Then measure for any resistance.

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I have no idea if they are just common rivets or if they are ground connections. Here are two photos of the other side of the board and the original photo of the board for comparison. I can tell you that there is what appears to be a "circle of solder" (again, please excuse my excessively technical terminology!) on the green side of the board that corresponds EXACTLY with EVERY ONE of the seven rivets on the flip side of the board. Do these photos help to determine if the common rivets are part of the current path (ground) and whether or not it is therefore advisable to connect the rivets with wire? (CLICK ON IMAGE TO DOUBLE PHOTO SIZE)

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2011/01/32.jpg

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2011/01/33.jpg

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2011/01/22.jpg

.............Do these photos help to determine if the common rivets are part of the current path (ground) and whether or not it is therefore advisable to connect the rivets with wire?.............

No it is not necessary. The lugs are not at all connected to the circuit path in any manner. You can see that the green area is actually the blank area of the circuit-board. The copper colour-ed areas are the real tracks (electrical). This style of connecting things are different from the 19's which was point-to-point wiring type, and hence will benefit from shorting all of them with common jumpers. No such thing is needed here, except changing ageing components may be.:)

Aditya

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aditya

.............Do these photos help to determine if the common rivets are part of the current path (ground) and whether or not it is therefore advisable to connect the rivets with wire?.............

No it is not necessary. The lugs are not at all connected to the circuit path in any manner. You can see that the green area is actually the blank area of the circuit-board. The copper colour-ed areas are the real tracks (electrical). This style of connecting things are different from the 19's which was point-to-point wiring type, and hence will benefit from shorting all of them with common jumpers. No such thing is needed here, except changing ageing components may be.:)

Aditya

---

Looks like I was way off in guessing that the green areas might be the ground.......

Quote:

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Originally Posted by westend9

Wise choice, replacing the electrolytic, you don't want a potential failure point in your recapped networks, correct?

---

I'm guessing that you were able to identify the 470 uF capacitor as being of the electrolytic variety by the fact that it has such a high uF value for such a small capacitor?

I just read this from wikipedia:
"Electrolytic capacitors are capable of providing the highest capacitance values of any type of capacitor. However they have drawbacks which limit their use. The voltage applied to them must be polarized; one specified terminal must always have positive potential with respect to the other. Therefore they cannot be used with AC signals without a DC bias. They also have very low breakdown voltage, higher leakage current and inductance, poorer tolerances and temperature range, and shorter lifetimes compared to other types of capacitors."

It mentions one specific terminal must always have positive potential with respect to the other. Does this mean that there's a specific positive and negative terminal on it, or that there is not, but that electrolytic capacitors don't work with alternating current--one terminal must always be positive but it doesn't matter which terminal that is (as long as one of the terminals always stays positive)? Just want to be sure I wire these into the circuit correctly....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by voice of the theater

...................Does this mean that there's a specific positive and negative terminal on it, or that there is not, but that electrolytic capacitors don't work with alternating current--one terminal must always be positive but it doesn't matter which terminal that is (as long as one of the terminals always stays positive)? Just want to be sure I wire these into the circuit correctly..................................

---

Yes......there is a specific positive/negative terminal for an electrolytic capacitor (which also is mentioned on it with "+" & "-" like signs), and it should always be replaced with the same orientation as the original one was.....and this is very important......

If you look closely at this 470uF capacitor in discussion, you will find those markings. If it is not visible, then it must be facing downward and hence obscured from view. You can always see it if you just un-solder one of its ends and lift it up.

Many thanks for the "Thanks".:)

Aditya

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2011/01/22.jpg

- The C3 outline ( for the 470 uF cap ) has a clear polarity marking on the PC board ( it's that "+" sign, top-right of the pin-hole, found on the left side of C3 outline ) .

- FYI, that 470 uF cap has markings that indicate the minus side, => (-) => .

- Electrolytic caps are always marked with a polarity indicator ( though sometimes the "pinch" in the metal can is all that denotes the + side ) .

- I think you better look up "Axial Capacitor" versus "Radial Capacitor" types, so that you order the electrolytic with the correct physical orientation .

- Also, look-up "heatsinking techniques for soldering delicate components" so that you avoid damaging your new parts when you install them ( from transmitted heat, stressing the caps ) .

- Please post a pic of your soldering iron !

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Earl K

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2011/01/22.jpg

- The C3 outline ( for the 470 uF cap ) has a clear polarity marking on the PC board ( it's that "+" sign, top-right of the pin-hole, found on the left side of C3 outline ) .

- FYI, that 470 uF cap has markings that indicate the minus side, => (-) => .

- Electrolytic caps are always marked with a polarity indicator ( though sometimes the "pinch" in the metal can is all that denotes the + side ) .

---

Wow! You have good eyes. I zoomed in on my photo and sure enough, there is the + sign..... Good thing I asked--it would have been a disaster if I soldered that cap in backwards!! Thanks again for your answer Earl and aditya!!! Hopefully, once the 470 uF caps arrive, I'll be able to see which side is + on the caps. I'll be sure to post photos of the caps if I'm unsure......

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Earl K

- I think you better look up "Axial Capacitor" versus "Radial Capacitor" types, so that you order the electrolytic with the correct physical orientation .

---

The 470 uF caps I ordered lay on their side and have one lead coming out of each end--they are axial capacitors---I was pretty sure I ordered the correct ones--right?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Earl K

- Also, look-up "heatsinking techniques for soldering delicate components" so that you avoid damaging your new parts when you install them ( from transmitted heat, stressing the caps ) .

---

I googled this and nothing came up. However, I was once instructed that when soldering capacitors, to keep the leads full length whenever possible and to apply heat only to the very tip of the lead (to minimize exposing the capacitor to heat). I was also taught to touch the tip of the lead to whatever you're trying to solder it to, apply heat for a few seconds (just long enough to warm up the lead and the piece of metal you're soldering it to--not long enough to fry the cap), and then melt the solder onto the connection because solder will stick better to a warm lead. Of course I was taught not to use a soldering iron that's too hot or you'll fry your caps as well. Not sure how much of the above is accurate/good advice. I've only used this advice once before (only recapped crossovers one time before). A couple of years ago I soldered new capacitors into my Heath/Altec AS 101's (with help from people here) and didn't fry anything (might have just gotten lucky!?). BTW, I thought I may have only noticed a very slight improvement in sound with that cap upgrade. I suspect that's because those 806-8A drivers (with 40 year old original diaphragms) just didn't have the high frequency extension/clarity to reveal much of an improvement in sound quality from a capacitor upgrade/replacement.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Earl K

- Please post a pic of your soldering iron !

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OK, get ready to laugh (or cry)..... Here it is. It's old, the tip looks to be oxidized and it's also bent (this is NOT a Bill Clinton joke). It's looked this way since the 90's, and I've used it like this since then with no problems. It barely gets hot enough to melt solder. Once it's "warmed up", you really have to touch the tip of it to the solder to get solder to melt. If you touch the "side of the tip" to the solder, the solder won't melt--it has to be the exact "front of the tip"....... I feel that since this soldering iron gets BARELY hot enough to melt solder, that maybe that's a blessing in disguise with my lack of expertise--I'm less likely to fry anything with it (an amateur marksman is less likely to accidentally blow someone's head off with a tiny pistol than a semi-automatic?)...... (CLICK TO ENLARGE)

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2011/01/34.jpg

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2011/01/35.jpg

Time for a new soldering iron or "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"?


Earl, and everyone else here, I cannot adequately express my gratitude for all the assistance I've been receiving on these crossover upgrades for my Model 19's and 14's. I would never have known of the reasons to replace capacitors, and certainly would have never had the knowledge to pull this off successfully without all the help/knowledge I've gotten here. I really feel like I'm being coached by the best...... Not to mention, when I joined here--I'd never even heard of Model 19's or Model 14's. In fact, when I joined, I had only recently learned that my speakers (at the time) were called Valencias (846A) since they only said Iconic/Altec on the back. Up 'til then (for years and years) I'd been calling them what my brother who sold them to me called them "the home version of the voice of the theater" because that's what the guy who sold them to him called them. Quite a mouthful and not really accurate......

Thanks for the pic !

Yes, I think you need a new iron . I usually use a 45 Watt Ungar/Weller iron .

I'll take a pic & then post it to show what I mean about "heat-sinking" a part ( be it on install or removal ) .

<> EarlK

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Earl K

Thanks for the pic !

Yes, I think you need a new iron . I usually use a 45 Watt Ungar/Weller iron .

---

Yeah, I had a feeling it was time for a new soldering iron. I won't miss this one--you sometimes have to apply a little pressure on the solder just to get it to melt! My local hardware store only has 25 watt soldering irons. I called Harbor Freight (tool store located nearby) they have a 30 watt "Chicago Welding" soldering iron -- here's the link 30 Watt, 120 Volt Soldering Iron
Looks to be much better than what I have and I'm sure it's much hotter. Do you think this would be ok? I'm afraid to go much hotter/higher wattage -- just don't want to fry anything (should I consider the 25 watter for "safety"?).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Earl K

I'll take a pic & then post it to show what I mean about "heat-sinking" a part ( be it on install or removal ) .

<> EarlK

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Great!!

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc.../2011/01/6.pnghttp://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2011/01/36.jpg

Here's an example of heatsinking caps before desoldering . The "locking-pliers" are actually called "Kelly Forceps" . You can find them as surgical surplus .

The heat from the soldering iron is dissapated through them rather than being transmitted into the cap ( or device being soldered ) .

Do some research on YouTube for self-help vodeos on; how to solder, cleaning soldering irons, etc. before you do your work .

<> cheers

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Earl K

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc.../2011/01/6.pnghttp://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2011/01/36.jpg

Here's an example of heatsinking caps before desoldering . The "locking-pliers" are actually called "Kelly Forceps" . You can find them as surgical surplus .

The heat from the soldering iron is dissapated through them rather than being transmitted into the cap ( or device being soldered ) .

Do some research on YouTube for self-help vodeos on; how to solder, cleaning soldering irons, etc. before you do your work .

<> cheers

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I found this video which shows heat sinking and seems pretty well done. I'm going to buy the forceps and a new soldering iron--maybe this one from my local Home Depot since it comes with a chisel tip (heats to 750 degrees).

http://www.amazon.com/Weller-SP23LK-.../dp/B0009ZD2AG

Actually feel like I know what I'm doing this time compared to when I recapped my AS-101's...... Thanks again!
YouTube - How and WHY to Solder Correctly

It takes a milliohm meter to measure this possible resistance. And even then, the connection of the leads can cause more resistance than might be present in the ground leads to the plate. Just connect the leads together with decent wire and solder. That's all it takes.

Ron

[QUOTE=westend9;1852555]An easy way to access the quality of the ground plane (lugs to plate) is to put a meter across varoius points and measure resistance. From the pictures, I think everything looks secure and no oxidation between metals. I have been known to give contact points like these a very quick squirt of Deoxit Gold or any other deoxidizing spray that is at my disposal.

You owe it to your self to get one of these adjustable temp statioms with a comfortable iron: Hakko 936.