Budget Horn Deadening

I made a cutting template for my WURTH sound deadening sheets out of an offcut of sheet vinyl flooring called PEGULAN. This material is limp and conforms easily to the horn bell contour.
I placed the completed template into the horn bell hollow and thought I would give the mouth a tap. Well 'bugger me'!, as we say down-under, the horn ringing was almost gone. I am sure that with a suitable adhesive the result would be even better. With another piece in the underside bell I think a satisfactory result can be achieved for little outlay. There are spray can products that adhere to vinyl and others that change the colour of vinyl.

Give it a try and let me know what you think.

Cheers, Marshall

Yeah, inexpensive vinyl flooring is a cheap/easy way to damp stuff. When appropriate, I recommend using the peel n' stick squares to create a ~constrained layer damping system and for serious damping, thick commercial rubber tiles or sheeting bonded with a lossy adhesive.

GM

I was thinking of dragging mine down to the local automotive pick-up spray-on bed liner outlet and give that a try...

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Originally Posted by VolvoHeretic

I was thinking of dragging mine down to the local automotive pick-up spray-on bed liner outlet and give that a try...

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I'm guessing that may be too ridged. I'd love to be proven wrong though, as I think it would a good looking and very durable finish.

Well, any sort of mass loading is good WRT metal horns, so probably as good overall as Aquaplas if applied a bit thicker.

There's always the old DIY method of mixing sand into paint and applying as many layers as it takes.

GM

Well, I just tried thumping a pick-up with Rino bed lining and it rang like a bell. How about Plasti Dip?

http://www.plastidip.com/home_solutions/Plasti_Dip

Not familiar with Rhino, around here everybody uses Line-X [me too if I could afford it] and none 'ring like a bell', though don't know for sure whether or not it will sufficiently damp a cast aluminum horn and they want way too much for me to do it out of curiosity: 3399 Chamblee Tucker Rd. 30341 - Google Maps

I've used Plasti-Dip on tools, battery hold downs, etc., but it doesn't strike me as being much of a damping compound except possibly on very thin metal. I mean to lower Fs an octave requires quadrupling its effective mass, so weigh the horn and add enough of anything that increases its weight to 4x and now you'll understand why the early horns were tar filled since they ideally needed a mechanical Fs of around 75-80 Hz for the 300 Hz lowest desired XO point.

Jeff M. can correct me if I'm having another 'senior moment', but it seems to me that he [and John T.?] tried mass quantities of modeling clay and even sand filled wooden enclosures in an effort to damp a 311-90? without complete success, so to suggest 'dropping' a 50 lb sandbag on top of a 511 to mass load it to the cab isn't the hyperbole it appears to be.

GM

In one of Altec's cost cutting measures near the end they used car wheel well undercoating water-rustproofer/sound deadner. As Aquaplas is real expensive,undercoating is not.

So you can go to your local auto parts store, pickup a couple of cans and spray it on,just mask off areas (Masking Tape) you don't want to cover.

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Originally Posted by Altec Best

In one of Altec's cost cutting measures near the end they used car wheel well undercoating water-rustproofer/sound deadner...

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Where? On their wheelwells?

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Originally Posted by Altec Best

In one of Altec's cost cutting measures near the end they used car wheel well undercoating water-rustproofer/sound deadner. As Aquaplas is real expensive,undercoating is not.

So you can go to your local auto parts store, pickup a couple of cans and spray it on,just mask off areas (Masking Tape) you don't want to cover.

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That's an awful idea. A lot of that stuff never really drys and is gummy. It may outgas for a long time, too. I got my 511B's on ebay cheaper than normal becasue they had that crap sprayed all over them.

Never really dries (hardens) is good. Gummy is not.

Wasn't that wheel well stuff used on the sheet metal horns called Aquaplas?

Anyway, you can do the damping on the cast horns with a bag of moistened sand sitting in the top lip or water if you're not worried about a few drops splashing around but my favourite is to use wax and some wicks - the original night light show - how *ing romantic is that? You'll get extra kisses and she might even tell her friends that your hobby's OK.

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Originally Posted by Panomaniac

Never really dries (hardens) is good. Gummy is not.

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There is a differance between drying and hardening. Silicone glue dries* but it doesn't harden. A lot of the undercoating in spray cans is just nasty for use on horns........ it doesn't even do a good job on cars.

* I suppose it could be a chemical reaction, but most people talk about stuff like glue and paint drying no matter if it's a chemical set or evaporation.

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Originally Posted by Cal Weldon

Wasn't that wheel well stuff used on the sheet metal horns called Aquaplas?

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Aquaplas is not even close to being what most often gets used as rust-proofing or undercoatong on cars.

Yes I was referring to the stuff on the big horns. I believe it is Aquaplas. I didn't think anything else was used on them, be it wheel well stuff or truck bed liner, I thought they had misinterpreted the product.

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Originally Posted by bfish

Where?

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Ah Dah ? Maybe 511E's ! I have 3 pair of 511E's 5 horns are all original, and I got news for you it isn't aquaplas ! Only the Multi's stayed true to form with the Aquaplas coating as far as I can tell.

The coating is black someone else told me about that too.That the OKC plant used Automotive Undercoating to dampen their 511E's.I'm pretty sure it was Phil Brennen eBay Moniker (aaokc)

Have no idea what you guys are using ? But all the undercoating I ever used hardened.Now if it was gummy every stone,pebbles,debris on the road would have stuck to it,not ideal for your car,let alone your horns :-) .Gummy Really ?

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Originally Posted by Cal Weldon

Yes I was referring to the stuff on the big horns. I believe it is Aquaplas. .

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Yes it is Cal ! The Multicells used only Aquaplas after the tar-filleds were retired.I was referring to the 511E or any Altec Sectoral 511-811

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Originally Posted by Altec Best

Have no idea what you guys are using ? But all the undercoating I ever used hardened.Now if it was gummy every stone,pebbles,debris on the road would have stuck to it,not ideal for your car,let alone your horns :-) .Gummy Really ?

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It's not thick enough for most stuff to stick in it.

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Originally Posted by Altec Best

Yes it is Cal ! The Multicells used only Aquaplas after the tar-filleds were retired.I was referring to the 511E or any Altec Sectoral 511-811

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Isn't it pretty well accpeted that small format horns didn't get anything expcept very very early on? I would think most any small format horn showing up that's been dampened would not be factory...... the like ones I bought on ebay. If I remember correctly, I laid down a garbage bag so that I wouldn't get that awful stuff all over my trunk.

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Originally Posted by Audio_by_Goodwill

It's not thick enough for most stuff to stick in it.

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Really ? Anything gummy I ever came across I couldn't keep stuff out of it,no matter how thick !

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Originally Posted by Audio_by_Goodwill

If I remember correctly, I laid down a garbage bag so that I wouldn't get that awful stuff all over my trunk.

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That's what happens when you try to buy things on the cheap ! Why buy them if they were so awful ?

I've seen automotive deadner from NAPA used succesfully on baffles. Don't know why it wouldn't work on horns. It dries (cures) to a non sticky finish. Comes in a spray can, IIRC.
There are so many of those products out there, it would be great to find one or two that do the job we want.

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Originally Posted by Altec Best

Ah Dah ? Maybe 511E's ! I have 3 pair of 511E's 5 horns are all original, and I got news for you it isn't aquaplas ! Only the Multi's stayed true to form with the Aquaplas coating as far as I can tell.

The coating is black someone else told me about that too.That the OKC plant used Automotive Undercoating to dampen their 511E's.I'm pretty sure it was Phil Brennen eBay Moniker (aaokc)

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Maybe? Horsefeathers and applesauce. Certainly nothing to base your previous "statement of fact" upon;

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Originally Posted by Altec Best

In one of Altec's cost cutting measures near the end they used car wheel well undercoating water-rustproofer/sound deadner...

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Originally Posted by Altec Best

That's what happens when you try to buy things on the cheap ! Why buy them if they were so awful ?

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Becasue they were semi-local, otherwise undamamged, and once I got them media blasted the problem was gone.

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Originally Posted by bfish

Certainly nothing to base your previous "statement of fact" upon;

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How about 511E horns that I own ?


http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2011/05/24.jpg

And you think that is "car wheel well undercoating water-rustproofer/sound deadner" for what reason?

Because the coating is Black under the paint and semi-flexible.The person I spoke to Phil Brennen and one of his employees said that a little known fact about the 511E's was that Altec used Automotive Undercoating/Sound Deadener to damp them at the OKC plant.Bill Hanuschak also said the same thing when I inquired about the pair he was selling on eBay.The pairs in fact he got from Phil which were just 511B's that Phil modded.I asked about the dampening and that's what he said to me.This fact bares out as I have checked all of my originals and they all have a black coating on them,and then painted obviously.

Aquaplas is white "Dry" or "Wet" I imagine when they first started producing the 511E they were using Aquaplas.But as time when on they were looking for a cheaper route.The evidence bears this out.Steve Mac has a pair I would be very interested to see if the coating on his is black as well.

I would never suggest something I wouldn't use myself,granted all undercoatings aren't created equally so finding the right ones are just as important.Stay away from the cheap $ stuff that never dries ! Dries to the touch in a few hours should be a good hint.

FYI, unless it's changed over the decades, off white is standard for Aquaplas, but is [was?] available in a dark gray also.

Anyway, interesting coating, the only sprayed on one I've seen with a texture like is on your horns was a super thick latex paint loaded with sand popular back in the '60s-'70s that I had shot on my 511s as a little side job while they were spraying the interior of a Treasure Island that would later become the original Home Depot.

GM

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Originally Posted by GM

FYI, unless it's changed over the decades, off white is standard for Aquaplas, but is [was?] available in a dark gray also.

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Coating is Black and not gray under the paint.

Understood, just pointing out that white isn't [wasn't?] the only Aquaplas color as you implied.

GM

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Originally Posted by GM

Understood, just pointing out that white isn't [wasn't?] the only Aquaplas color as you implied.

GM

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Correct. as the MSDS points out;

"Appearance and Odor: OFF WHITE PASTE HAVING MILD SWEET ODOR. OTHER COLORS AVAIL: GREY,BLACK,GREEN."

http://siri.org/msds/f2/bjx/bjxtq.html

Interesting. The coating on your 511s looks a lot more textured and "goopy" than the coating on my Multi-cells and other M.C.s I've seen. Sure looks like different stuff. I wonder if it is, or just a different application technique?

Time for a chemical analysis! :D

Guess I should have Googled, my older spec sheet doesn't list black, green. Still, the 511E's coating doesn't look like my very faded memory of an Aquaplas one which was more of a 'crinkly' one that was [still is?] popular for awhile with hotrodders and a few specialty vehicle manufacturers.

GM

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Originally Posted by Panomaniac

I wonder if it is, or just a different application technique?

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Me too, I shot a number of different textured coatings up till Summer '89, both from specialized guns and spray cans, but don't recall any of them looking even remotely like what's on those 511Es. Ditto what's on the few different vehicles I've owned since then. Only the rubbery, stippled looking latex coating that was shot on mine comes close.

GM

Application directions included brush and roller in addition to spray. The similar duct coatings our company uses have a highly variable finish, even from one applicator to another.

Added
"Fresh" product also exhibits more shrinkage uopn curing than that from buckets that have been repeatedly opened. Again, highly variable.

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Originally Posted by Panomaniac

Interesting. The coating on your 511s looks a lot more textured and "goopy" than the coating on my Multi-cells and other M.C.s I've seen. Sure looks like different stuff. I wonder if it is, or just a different application technique?

Time for a chemical analysis! :D

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IME Pano I don't think it would matter even with a chemical analysis ! Besides I'm not in the habit of scraping the coating off my Horns ! Some Folks are just set in their ways of thinking regardless of what is put in front of them ! I have 5 all original factory 511E's and maybe one 511E Modded Horn.I think I know the difference between Aquaplas and Undercoating !!

They aren't reading the posts ! "Black and Semi-Flexible" when you push on it like a rubbery consistency but a little harder.Aquaplas isn't flexible like that, it cracks and crumbles when dry.Let me ask this why would Altec want a Black Aquaplas when it was going to be Painted Gray ? Hmmm Sounds like a waste of money by adding a colorant to me !!!!!!

Well anyway just picked up a mint pair of 30 lb. 299-16A's that I need to go hook up to a pair of those 511E's :-) ;-)

http://www.wilrep.com/pdfformat/3603.pdf

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Originally Posted by Altec Best

...Aquaplas isn't flexible like that, it cracks and crumbles when dry...

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If that were true it would have "cracked and crumbled" off of every JBL cone or diaphragm it was used on when they were operated in breakup modes. Lots of very fast flexing going on there. I've got some old 'plassed cones that you can easily roll or bend without any cracking or crumbling going on.

Not to mention, it has to flex to function. From your Wilrep data sheet;

""The visco elastic properties of Antivibe (Liquid or Sheet) makes vibrating surfaces poor transmitters of vibrational energy."

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Originally Posted by Altec Best

... Some Folks are just set in their ways of thinking regardless of what is put in front of them...

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That we can agree on.

As for chemical testing, that should be easy. 'plas claims high resistance to solvents, and (3M) undercoating is soluble with acetone, naptha, etc.

I used this product on my 805 horns .Drys in 20 mins and is dry to the touch but rubbery? Foams up a bit when sprayed Can be painted. Available in Canada but not sure about the US.
2783 Tumbler Spray Undercoat
Very happy with the results
Andrew

At the library since I have no power.............. the stuff you have on those horns could be something besides Aquaplas, but that stuff is far from the what is typically available in spray cans for automotive use. Going to the parts store and grabbing the average can of undercoating will likely result in a mess.