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Nowadays you hear a lot about all kind of bad noises and signals, who are send through the electric power system.
Many audio people are filtering the power, with a powerfilter and they are using shielded or double shielded power cables to protect the system for these signals and get rid off RFI/EMS
Is there anyone on this forum, who has some experience with power filters and cables?
Opinions are like...
My opinion is most power cables are just plain ripoffs. Use a decent cable and forget it.
Power filters can be very valid. But they have to be good ones..I like Corcom.
If you have REALLY bad power, a GOOD (not cheap) computer type backup with PURE SINE wave out is useful, but costs. A lot.
I have found most places if I run a separate line for my system and use a Tripplite filter/spike protector I am fine. Fancy stuff ain't necessary.
http://www.tripplite.com/en/products...txtModelID=104
Hint: If you use a filter put it close to the system and keep the cords from it to the system short.
I put very little weight in the power cables, BUT power conditioners can help immensely.
I picked up a APC S15 for 300 bucks brand new and the difference was nothing short of stunning. The APC also has a backup battery source which provides a pure sine wave when activated.
Well put, OG. This thread reminded me of one from early 2010 where someone posted a link to Parts Express reviews of the Wattgate 381 Audio Grade Duplex Socket. These reviews were unbelievably funny -- this link is for page 4 of reviews but page 5, 6, and 7 etc. have hilarious (even funnier?) reviews as well. All I had to do was a forum search for "Daniel Jackson" and the original thread from January 2010 popped right up--shows you how valuable this archive is (yes, I admit to being a Stargate SG-1 fan as well as all the Stargate spinoffs but at least I don't live in my parents basement or go to Star Trek/Stargate conventions)! Some "serious" (schill?) reveiws have been added to the Parts Express website since then but this link takes you to page 4 which is about where the funny ones start (pages 3-8?). Can you imagine paying $147 for a duplex socket?Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guy
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...ewRand=2818820
Ok, maybe the whole story about cables and shielding or filtering is bull shit, I don't know.
The only thing I know are opinions from other people or reviews everywhere on the internet.
The best way to be sure is to try out something, and I read some good reviews about this net filter
http://stores.ebay.com/DSS-Verkauf?_trksid=p4340.l2563 I think I'm going to buy this one for a try out.
And for cables Furutech seems to be very good, but I think much or 2x much to expensive.
So for the cables, shielded or double shielded, there must be a much cheaper solution.
That's my first "job" tomorrow, find some good cables, and find out some prices.
Nothing beats trying something out for yourself. You can read all the reviews in the world, but often times the only review that really carries much weight is your own. Not to mention when you try it out yourself you see how something performs under your specific/actual conditions--not how it performs at someone else's house under different conditions. If you're going to spring for some of this stuff and if it's expensive (like a power filter etc. might be), some places let you return certain items within 30 days if you're not completely satisfied for any reason--those are good places to buy stuff that you want to "try out" that you're not sure will work for your specific application. One reason I posted about the $147 duplex outlet was to give you an idea of how much money people will waste chasing rainbows/throw at a problem.....Quote:
Originally Posted by AltecLansingFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by AltecLansingFan
????? Very weird reply?
I said most cables were bullshit and filters can help. NOBODY in this thread said filtering was bullshit. I have no idea where you are coming from on that?
As far as that filter, it is impossible that it works any better than a GOOD ten dollar one. There ARE laws to physics, and you DO NOT listen to the power source. You listen to it after it has been turned to DC then modulated by the tubes and transistors in your gear.
And as far as good power cables almost any adequate cable is a good cable.
Spend what you want. I won't argue, but please don't post we said filtering was bull when we did NOT.
And I would just as soon not hear about random opinions from the net. If the person holding the opinion has no credentials the opinion is worthless. Sorry.
There is always a following, even for the worst item on the market, there are people who bought it. Lotsa people claim their white van speakers are great, ignorance is bliss...
I guess we will get to a point where people will be auditioning boutique power filters. :p
As far as opinions on the internet, there are many. Listen to idiots or listen to somebody with 50 years in audio. it's your money.
You can find ANY opinion you want on the internet.
I have one final question...you had already bought into the hype before you posted, you got good advice and did not even consider it. Why did you bother asking?
They can certainly help. The improvement will depend on two things....Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubedude
1. How bad your power is...
2. How adequate the filtering in your equipment's power supplies is.
If you have clean power and equipment with robust power supplies...the difference is minimal...
Power from a pure sine wave supply is close to a 10 on a scale of 10...if you are at 8 or 9 to begin with, it's marginal. But if you are at 4 or 5 on a relative quality level...
And of course some equipment deals with bad power better than other gear.
The key is it's a SYSTEM... and like any chain, only as strong as the weakest link....
OMG, I just clicked on the link and even though it's not in English (is it in German?) it looks like it's $422 for the power filter you're considering--ouch! Way too much!!! I hope it's Wattgate (381 Audio Grade Duplex Socket) compatible......:doh:Quote:
Originally Posted by AltecLansingFan
Worthy of repeating for emphasis! Invest your $ in better signal chain gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guy
Sorry I didn't mean you when I was talking about bullshit, don't take that personal.
But there are some people, maybe also on this forum when we are talking about cables and filtering, they always come with the same story from a guy named Daniel Jackson.
I know that story, that's a very old story, almost everybody knows that story, but I don't know if his conclusion really is the truth, because I didn't try it out.
That's the reason why I talked about bullshit, but that is also the reason why I want to try it out myself, sorry I want to be sure.
I was already planning to buy a power filter, but I was not quiet sure, after you talked about the Corcom filter, I decided to try it also.
Yes I bought it, but not for 422 euros, I payed only 152 euro (ebay bidding)Quote:
Originally Posted by voice of the theater
When I get the right cables, you will hear the results.
The Corcom will require a little DIY as you just get the filter, not wired up in a box.Quote:
Originally Posted by AltecLansingFan
The noise component is actually very small, a minute part of the power. Noise filters are a mature technology..nothing new in probably 3 decades. So to buy a $400 one is ludicrous. Million dollar computers use those ten dollar Corcom filters. Don't you think they would use the $400 one if it worked better? Corcom is not the only good brand BTW, I just happen to know them.
Money would be better spent on the $300 sine wave backup that was mentioned. At least there is a CHANCE it will improve things. And you have over a hundred left.
The UPS will also correct power sag and brownouts, something no filter will do.
Again sorry, but my professional opinion is only a moron would buy a $400 power filter.
And funny ONE person mentions Daniel Jackson and you pretty much dismiss the whole thread. Your mind was already made up.
I don't know much about fancy cables or filters, but I will say a dedicated circuit to the listening room for the audio (lighting on a separate circuit) worked wonders for me. I guess I spent $60 on a new breaker, wire, and regular old duplex outlet. I felt comfortable doing it myself, although I would recommend most folks get a real, licensed electrician to do the job, or at least check it out.
Tremendous bang for the buck. I recommend your approach before doing ANYTHING else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Captgonzo
There are wall boxes of sufficient size to put the Corcom filter inside.
If you still have issues, then go to a UPS or maybe a constant voltage transformer if needed. But the dedicated line is generally a quantum leap.
I did the dedicated audio circuits and am very happy with it.
Before that I was using isolation transformers to "stay clean."
Then I found that good grounding was really all I needed. :doh:
Nearly all audible power-related noise issues I've encountered have been ground-borne. Sorting through single-ended/differential audio lines, signal ground vs. chassis ground, star grounding equipment, ensuring that your work still meets local electrical codes et al. - particularly in a studio setting - is terribly frustrating but is time well-spent.
So far as special power conditioning or boutique mains cable is concerned, consider that the first thing mains power encounters upon entering most equipment is the primary winding of a power transformer; in other words, a big inductor or low-pass filter. In addition, large capacitors are placed after rectification to minimise ripple. This is all the filtering anyone really requires in nearly all instances...
BobR
Today my netfilter arrived.
Conclusion: sound was never so open, like your room is much bigger now, very straight bass, and a very nice controled detail.
Best buy for the money!
And I did not changed any power cables yet.
My God I never thought power is that important, and can make that difference.
So my next job is the power cable stuff.
But maybe these results are only the case in my situation, with my setup. :eek:
I would strongly argue that. you could have done the same thing for a third the price. but it wouldn't have been the fancy item you were in love with before you bought it.Quote:
Originally Posted by AltecLansingFan
152 bucks is NOT the best buy for the money in power filters.:coffeedrinker:
OTOH glad you are happy.:D
But all you did was a band aid on a problem. As an engineer, I would rather clean up my power FIRST then go to filters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guy
OK, I agree with you about clean up the power.
That's why I want to create a separate group for my audio system only in my transformer substation.
The cable I already bought for that is this one http://www.aegeurolec.nl/downloads/Freco-EMC.pdf
The special audio fuse in my transformer substation will be this one http://www.kempelektroniks.com/Acces...spx?lang=en-US
And of course ordinary shielded cables from the system units to a high quality power bar.
So the power project is still going on.
BTW What is money;
If you put your money in a safe, it is gone and if you spend your money, it is also gone :laffingassoff:
I am happy, what? I am very happy.
Don't undervalue...... I never did.
Hey as long as you are happy.Quote:
Originally Posted by AltecLansingFan
As far as undervalue. I don't- the difference is I don't believe the voodoo you believe in. So I don't over-value.
You bought what you wanted, that is great. Where that ends is when you post here for others...I am obligated to point out you are paying many times what you need to..you want fancy names and labels. Many people don't have a lot of money to throw away. I am pointing out for them they can get the same performance for 25 percent of what you paid or less. I'm also pointing out you are doing things in the wrong order. Clean up the power first with a dedicated line is best, and not that hard.
60-70 bucks for a dedicated line and a good 20 dollar filter is gonna be way better than what you bought. Please understand you are buying what your peers will respect. Apparently it is important for you to own what others recommend in high end forums. I don't care what is recommended in high end forums, in fact that is often the kiss of death as far as me buying something.
My comments are for the people who read this forum, not necessarily you.
Buy what you want, but please don't try to insist other people waste money just because you can and want to. That's all I am saying. You are addressing personal needs not necessarily needs for good sound.
Spot on.Quote:
Originally Posted by mah
Putting an expensive filter on bad wiring is not the best. Fixing the bad wiring FIRST then go to the filters is the way to go. Other wise you are putting a band aid on a wound...except wounds get better, the power line is not going to.
And fixing the bad wiring is WAY CHEAPER. That is the best buy in power, not an overpriced filter.
Of course, if you want an overpriced item to make your system sound better, your mind will generate the info to make sure it does. I turn and walk away when car stereo guys start raving about Monster cable and zillions of similar things.
WARNING TO ALL PEOPLE ON THIS FORUM
Don't do what I did, or what I am going to do, I am only an idiot!!! please don't listen to me, because that's much better for your purse and your purse is much more important than the sound of your system. :eek:
Oh, I just got some meters ViaBlue X-25 silver power cable with the post.
Oh Oh Oh also very expensive, yes here on this forum I think I'm one of the biggest idots.
You aren't an idiot, Just a headstrong person who want to prove himself right and has no evidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by AltecLansingFan
I'm done with this. I will no longer respond
Again..waste your money...it is yours. Just suggesting others waste theirs I disagree with.
The problem is, you don't know enough to have this discussion. you don't know the difference in power and how to fix it. you bought a shiny toy, it works, be happy.
Those who are disagreeing DO have that knowledge.We are willing to tear into things and fix them.
A power conditioner can only fix DEFICIENCIES in your power line and electronics. IT IS NOT MAGIC. Fixing the deficiencies is better than a band aid.
Before it goes any farther drop it. But grow up and be adult about this, you are acting like a 14 year old and pouting.
This post "How important are power cables and power filters?" has a purpose.
Because there are a lot of very headstrong cable criticizers on this forum, they already know the theoretical results before they even try!
Look with that kind of people we should never have any kind of innovation on this world.
My God, am I happy that our forefathers were not like they are, because I don't think we had electricity or metal baskets with paper cones in it now.
This headstrong idiot don't listen with his mouth, no this headstrong person listens with his ears. :eek:
Special reaction for "Old Guy" (BTW Old will not always say wise)
12 years ago I was a few months in Santo Domingo, there I met a guy he also worked as engineer at the Heineken plant.
That guy came from Cincinnati Ohio, he was a wise man, so there is hope.....
Thanks for your kind reaction http://www.hostboard.com/forums/
The purpose was: Don't come with an opinon when you don't have any experience with all kind of cables at all!!
End this now. You had already made up your mind before you posted. So why did you even post? it's not a discussion. never has been.
Then you have the gall to accuse me of what you did which is make up your mind beforehand?
The problem is you don't know enough to know how little you know.
Again all a power conditioner can do is correct deficiencies. You don't even know what it does that is why it's magic to you.
there is no magic. period. are there things not explainable by current tech knowledge? Yes, but power conditioners is not one of them.
there are plenty of yes-men forums where people talk about boutique nonsense available. You can get all the people there to agree with you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guy
I have other listening experiences with cables!
So don't be angry, because I did it my way, this is not a yes-men forum!
AltecLansingFan, congratulations on your ownership of source components, amplification, and loudspeakers of high enough resolution to render differences in cables significant enough to evoke the kind of passion you show for them here, sincerely, congratulations are in order as few of us will ever know this status.
FWIW, when you disrespect the old guy, you also to a degree disrespect all of us who have, through his participation here have come to know him, respect him and his vast knowledge and experience, and even consider him a friend.
Disagree with him all you want, he's tough and very capable of supporting his side with the raw honest facts, but please don't blatantly disrespect him. Just sayin.......................
Bowtie, I've been disrespected by WAY more important people. I ain't losing any sleep.
All he has done is proven where I was coming from. He did not start this thread to have a discussion. He faked wanting advice. His whole purpose was to troll.
He's gone thru a religious conversion. Expensive power filters and cables are good.
It is impossible to argue against blind faith. He is not a rational man. What he sees is the only truth.
He'll accuse me of the same thing. Difference between us? I do not start threads under false pretenses....or advocate buying overpriced items.
Objective reality- he THINKS expensive toys make his system sound better.
Maybe they did...to HIM. Does that make it a good idea to advocate others with completely different systems and taste go blow their money on something sold at ten times it's value? He says yes. I say no. Everybody else make up your own mind.
Yeah I have a short fuse for bullshit. In his case I have just decided to move upwind.
I'm not advocating anything in particular like he is. All I say is take any manufacturer claims with a grain of salt, if not pound.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bowtie427ss
Sorry but I don't like it when people who doesn't know me at all are thinking; Oh there we have such guy again, who loves fancy cables and after that they are saying "The problem is you don't know enough to know how little you know."
I am modest, and I don't like big talk, but there more people not only in Holland but also in the US they are playing their Altec system on my advice.
Look post 14 http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...ighlight=Evert
The only thing I wanted to explain, but that is not so easy for everyone on this forum to understand, is the difference between knowledge and knowledge+experience
No comment.Quote:
Originally Posted by AltecLansingFan
Rant hat on
Like every other cable thread on every other forum in existence, it turns out like this. Good people with a difference of opinion acting out of character for the sake of argument. I wish I were a moderator here. I would have nipped this puppy in the bud before it ever got started.
Cable threads are one of the evils of our hobby and should be exorcised.
Rant hat off.
Cal I will address you but not the troll.
This thread was started by pretending to ask for advice. The original poster then went on to hammer his opinions, every one disagreeing with him is wrong. It never was a discussion.
Just troll plain and simple.
As far as speaker cables, I favor everyone using what they want. I don't believe all cables sound alike.
Most cable claims can't be documented. That is no reason for somebody to not use what they want. When cables are sold for a thousand times what they cost to make....Monster comes to mind...it is just plain immoral.
This is about power cables. And ridiculously expensive ones.
The OP allows one opinion...his own is the only one that can be right. Then he claims to be modest? the lady doth protest too much.
Power conditioners can improve crappy power. So can fixing the crappy power.
Without even trying to fix his power the claim is made an overpriced filter is "the best buy".
Al little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and he has little knowledge.
Two questions for board members....
1. Is this board about buying Boutique products or mostly about DIY?
Which of these reviews is honest?
"I bought an xxx power conditioner. For me the results were much improved sound and clarity. If you have power issues this might be worth a try."
"I bought an XXX power conditioner. It is amazing! Conclusion: sound was never so open, like your room is much bigger now, very straight bass, and a very nice controled detail.
Best buy for the money!"
I am in favor of discussions about all boutique products being banned from here. There are plenty of boards discussing them. Why bring it here?
A cable thread should not be a problem at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal Weldon
The problem is the negative reactions from people who never tried, but think that the cable story is bullshit.
Before I started this tread, I didn't know to do that, because I knew how some people will react on a cable tread.
So I started this tread in a way from 'I'm the stupid one, and asking some dull questions' with in my mind to find some people with experiences.
But that wasn't the case.
I don't care if there are people with an other opinon, they only listen to their own system, and when they are satisfied, that's OK, of course I have no problem with that.
So than and when, I come here on the forum to share idea's, or find new ideas, only for one reason; I always want to make my Altec Lansing system better.
Money should not be an issue on this forum, when people think, oh that's much to expansive, it is easy to decide not to do it.
When I want to talk about money, I better can go to some kind of investors site.
Number one for me is the sound of my system!
About 45 years ago I got my first pair of Altec 409B speakers.
I am a man who always wanted to try everything what is possible without a preconceived opinion to get the best results.
I tried out the most idiot idea's with very bad results, but also with very good results.
Not thinking Ooh, that's the biggest bullshit I ever heard so let it be....
No, just try it out, that's the only way to find out.
I remember that guy in Las Vegas, which I helped with his system.
When we started he also was very very skeptical about cables, he didn't want to spent any extra money for that.
So I bought the best cables I ever had and still use, interconnects and speakers cables and I send them to him.
I made an appointment with him; listen minimum 30 hours to the cables and send me some money, only if you like them more than your previous cables.
Result after a few weeks, he told me he always was very skeptical and that was the reason he never tried it out, and now he never wanted to lose them again.
I can tell you one thing if you believe it or not; power and cables are very important!!
Unknown makes unloved!
My slogan is: Be open for all kinds of experiences and you can let your system sing like it never did before!
While good mains power cannot be discounted for a variety of reasons, typical power supplies (excluding switchmode, which is the reason for line filters catering to computer users) will more than sufficiently address line-borne noise issues; again, power transformer primary winding inductance and power supply capacitors effectively mitigate noise.
If your mains power is causing audible audio artifacts - which indicates harmonics and line noise far in excess of what is legally permissible in most locales - then address your mains power first.
As opposed to the opinions of some, I believe these discussions - especially cable wars - are healthy; they offer an opportunity for technically-challenged enthusiasts to do research and acquire quantitative analytical skills which are sorely lacking in the audio engineering world - both professional and consumer.
So far as listening evaluations are concerned, I've always been a proponent of double-blind testing, which is a staple of nearly every industry (pharma and food for example), apart from audio that is...
http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/0...o-product.html
Also have a look at Floyd Toole and Sean Olive's AES preprint linked in the article above...
I've always been dismissive of typical undisciplined sighted audio evaluations without controls.
Yes, there may be audio phenomena which currently lies outside the realm of present knowledge of psychoacoustics but peer-reviewed research and double-blind testing clearly show that specialist line-level, speaker and power cables are not amongst them.
BobR
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guy
Sorry my friend, but your are much to personal, and I don't think that is very respectable!
Maybe you already posted more than 3000 posts here on this forum, I don't care if you are "old" or not, I don't think you are the boss here, and I don't think you can decide if we are talking here about cables or not!!
The only thing I can tell you, and I know it for sure, because you never tried them, as you say "boutique" cables by yourself; You don't know anything from cables at all. PERIOD!!
Come back with your opinion when you really tried them and tell me everything. :eek:
Have a good day. :2thumbsup:
Maybe you worked 2 years at the Altec plant as a cleaning assistant, this does not say that you know anything from sound at all! (Sorry this time I also was a little personal)
30 days??????? Could this be related to the lunar cycle? I know sunspot activity can interfere with some radio transmissions.
For the sake of balance this link is presented without judgement. :o
http://www.shunyata.com/Content/reviews.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by mah
When you are starting asking stupid questions, sorry I can't help you, maybe this will help you http://www.nightingale.com/prod_deta...ful_brain.aspx
.