OT: Don't mess with my AC
Power grid change may disrupt clocks | The News Journal | delawareonline.com
Not a real headline grabber... yet.
Seems we're gonna be the test animals this time. The idea to run it a year to see if anyone notices was pure brilliance. :rolleyes:
For lots of stuff it won't matter. For anything with a synchronous motor (like the Hammond organ, most RTRs and TTs, etc) it's bad news. Plenty of digital devices clock off the AC too.
And in the recording world... will a CD recorded when the AC was 59Hz sound right played back at 61?
Might be a good time to enter the Power Frequency Stabilizer market. ;)
Re: OT: Don't mess with my AC
I think they've been doing it for years, they run it at 59 during working hours to slow the clocks down and get more work out of you then speed the damn things up to 61 so you have to get back to work faster!!!! :mad:
Re: OT: Don't mess with my AC
Re: OT: Don't mess with my AC
Seems a private outfit called NERC has been handling our grid for a few years, and they proposed the "experiment". Assertions are that we may be wasting big bucks on precision we don't really need.
Which raises the Q, "how precise is it now"? I found the following alarm limits at NERC;
" The Frequency Trigger Limits (FTLs) are defined as thresholds. An FTL-Low alarm is generated when interconnection frequency is lower than FTL-Low for 5-minutes or more. The FTL-Low is 59.950 Hz for Eastern Interconnection and 59.856 Hz for Western Interconnection. FAL, as referenced on this chart, refers to the Frequency Emergency Threshold, where, once reached, system reliability quickly deteriorates. The FAL-Low is 59.908 Hz for Eastern Interconnection and 59.80 Hz for Western Interconnection.
An FTL-High alarm is generated when interconnection frequency is higher than FTL-High for 5-minutes or more. The FTL-High is set at 60.050 Hz and 60.144 Hz for Eastern and Western Interconnection respectively. The FAL-High is set at 60.092 Hz and 60.20 Hz for Eastern and Western Interconnection."
OK... that's pretty precise.
Re: OT: Don't mess with my AC
I agree...those tolerances are pretty tight.
Re: OT: Don't mess with my AC
Well it seems here in the East we will have the biggest effect.
Re: OT: Don't mess with my AC
I always new those folks out west lived in a looser time frame. Now we have proof.
Re: OT: Don't mess with my AC
Our current policy for grid frequency includes both manual and automated correction to keep (some) clocks ~accurate;
"Regulation of power system frequency for timekeeping accuracy was not commonplace until after 1926 and the invention of the electric clock driven by a synchronous motor (a Hammond invention). Network operators will regulate the daily average frequency so that clocks stay within a few seconds of correct time. In practice the nominal frequency is raised or lowered by a specific percentage to maintain synchronization. Over the course of a day, the average frequency is maintained at the nominal value within a few hundred parts per million. In North America, whenever the error exceeds 10 seconds for the east, 3 seconds for Texas, or 2 seconds for the west, a correction of ?0.02 Hz (0.033%) is applied. Time error corrections start and end either on the hour or on the half hour."
What isn't clear is the intent of the "experiment". If they merely discontinue the time correction efforts (which could be a sizable savings alone), the only noticeable effect will be to some of our clocks. If they loosen the overall tolerance standards, that could be a different story.
Re: OT: Don't mess with my AC
Fish, As a public service your post should be on the Stereophile Analogue Forum. :D
Re: OT: Don't mess with my AC
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bfish
What isn't clear is the intent of the "experiment".
can't think of anything good, about this.
have one of these, most accurate clock i've owned -
eBay - Telechron GE Clock book General Electric Art Deco Shelf, Similar items search
Re: OT: Don't mess with my AC
Re: OT: Don't mess with my AC
Interesting thread... I develop controls for commercial and residential products. I've incorporated a TI chip in the latest platform which reads voltage, current, power factor...and with an independent crystal oscillator am able to determine frequency too. I am in the southeast and its 60hz rock solid. Sometimes 59.9 and sometimes 60.1, but the average is always 60.0HZ. As these new products find themselves regionally it will be intersting to see during field trials whether there is any significant deviance.
Re: OT: Don't mess with my AC
Quote:
Seems a private outfit called NERC has been handling our grid for a few years, and they proposed the "experiment". Assertions are that we may be wasting big bucks on precision we don't really need.
NERC's #2 man is a long time senior partner with Goldman Sachs, i kinda doubt he joined NERC to take a cut in pay. A brief resume for each of the board of trustees members is posted at NERC's website. Nothing good for consumers will come of this.
Re: OT: Don't mess with my AC
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Steve Mac
I've incorporated a TI chip in the latest platform which reads voltage, current, power factor...and with an independent crystal oscillator am able to determine frequency too.
That's cool! Years ago my dad gave me on of those Kill-a-Watt meters that does much the same thing. I finally killed it. Got to get another, it's super handy. Kill A Watt
Re: OT: Don't mess with my AC
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Panomaniac
That's cool! Years ago my dad gave me on of those Kill-a-Watt meters that does much the same thing. I finally killed it. Got to get another, it's super handy.
Kill A Watt
Definately a handy tool !
Re: OT: Don't mess with my AC
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Steve Mac
Interesting thread... I develop controls for commercial and residential products. I've incorporated a TI chip in the latest platform which reads voltage, current, power factor...and with an independent crystal oscillator am able to determine frequency too. I am in the southeast and its 60hz rock solid. Sometimes 59.9 and sometimes 60.1, but the average is always 60.0HZ. As these new products find themselves regionally it will be intersting to see during field trials whether there is any significant deviance.
Cool! Now you just need a web app to produce a realtime monitoring site like the UK;
National Grid: Real Time Frequency Data - Last 60 Minutes
Or better yet, one for each region. And what better way to hawk your wares than to offer a free taste targeted at those with an interest in such matters already...;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bowtie427ss
NERC's #2 man is a long time senior partner with Goldman Sachs, i kinda doubt he joined NERC to take a cut in pay. A brief resume for each of the board of trustees members is posted at NERC's website. Nothing good for consumers will come of this.
Amen brother, Don't get me started...[insert sniper smiley].
NERC itself of course is "qualified" as a non-profit... what an oxymoron that is... The man with his hand on North America's main breaker is a powerful man indeed, and deserving of more than casual scrutiny.
Added
OOOh! OOOh! Idea for new movie! Submarine hackers hold the grid for ransom! Call it Brother, can you spare a KW? Or, Disconnect Notice.
Starring Austin Powers as himself, Lindsay Lohan as Rave'n Mad, and MiniMe as the POTUS...
Re: OT: Don't mess with my AC
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bfish
The man with his hand on North America's main breaker is a powerful man indeed,
and deserving of more than casual scrutiny.
quite true.
here would be one of his most notable recent endeavors -
Northeast Blackout of 2003 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and the reason was -
http://rense.com/general40/skolmidfkk.htm
Re: OT: Don't mess with my AC
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bfish
..."Regulation of power system frequency for timekeeping accuracy was not commonplace until after 1926 and the invention of the electric clock driven by a synchronous motor...
An interview with Laurens Hammond shortly before his death yeilds some insight into the time and related events. Interesting stuff.;
Chapter XIII - The Electric Clock
Re: OT: Don't mess with my AC
I've been studying...
I was surprised to learn that grid loads are balanced by frequency instead of voltage, and that seemingly insignificant frequency variations translate into huge variations in power delivery.
When a new load comes online, it causes a proportional "droop" in grid frequency. This droop in frequency is sensed at the generating equipment, causing steam or water control valves to open, increasing the generator speed to compensate. The fact that a few hundredths of a Hz can equal Megawatt levels of transmission justifies the importance of its' regulation.
So why the Experiment? The equipment is automated and already in place. A conspiracy theorist might propound that there's huge money to be made in power factor manipulation of reactive loads from a utility standpoint since end-user metering and billing are largely based on some assumed power factor.
Re: OT: Don't mess with my AC
Beware, Bfish, you are venturing toward the Dark Side where economists ignore the laws of physics. :inkblot-smile:
What's wrong with the electric grid? - The Industrial Physicist:emot106:
Re: OT: Don't mess with my AC
We had a freak 15 min storm that took out our power for five days. No internet , TV , A/C , cook on the barby, two refridgs/freezers full... all thrown out. We have a hillside ranch with city water & sewer, so we could use the water on the upper level but not on he lower level. Over 800,000 people were out of power. One tree came down on a xformer. It shorted out and caught on fire and sending the Hi Voltage ( 5kV ) down the 240v line, destroying all the electrical panels, and whatever else was in the path. Being without power is humbling
Don
Re: OT: Don't mess with my AC
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mah
Very informative, thanks Marshall. That puts a lot of things into perspective. Primarily;
"...the key error in the new rules was to view electricity as a commodity rather than as an essential service."
The robber barons of a century ago were novices compared to the greedy bastages that own the law today. It would seem the lesson learned from Enron was that to keep it from being a problem again we merely needed to make it legal. (Contain the rant Brad, let it pass...)
Back to frequency... My previous numbers were an understatement. Actually;
"In the Eastern Interconnect, a 30-mHz drop in frequency reduces power delivered by 1 GW."
With that in mind, it would seem that any loosening of grid frequency standards will result in the kind of grid instability that causes devastating brownouts/blackouts long before we would notice an audible error in our turntables or tape drives. ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
donaldpatten
...Being without power is humbling
Don
Yeah Don, it certainly is. For some reason though, I can accept the occasional outage due to trees or equipment failure, but when it happens so some Wall Street types can buy (another) vacation home I get really p'd off. :(
Re: OT: Don't mess with my AC
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tomt
Yup, best clock we have, also, absolutely silent and keeps good time:
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2011/07/27.jpg
