OT Klipsch

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October 19th, 2011, 01:50 PM
voice of the theater

OT Klipsch

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altec Best

Yes they are ! Cornwall II's.They sound good, had some mods done on them,but they aren't my 19's ! :wink2:

Hope I don't need to have my mouth washed out with soap for using the "K" word! This is another quote from the Model 19 Veneer Care thread which I don't want to hijack. I've always kind of "dissed" Klipsch speakers in general as being not as good as (vintage) Altecs--come to think of it, I pretty much have always "dissed" all other brands as not as good as Altecs! But AB likes the Cornwall II's--so I got curious. I went to the Klipsch website and saw they currently make the Cornwall III's. I admit I was impressed by the specs--but of course I know that specs only tell a very small part of the story (not to mention a lot of specs can be related to how the measuring is done). The Cornwall III's are some of the less expensive Klipsch speakers, but as far as I can tell have the "best" specs of any Klipsch that I could find (widest bandwidth, flattest response).

Cornwall III ($4,000 a pair)
FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 34Hz - 20 kHz +/- 3db
SENSITIVITY: 102 db @ 1watt/1meter
I had no idea the Klipsch were that efficient--and at $4,000 a pair, I would hope they're decent sounding. They're 3 ways with two horns and a 15" woofer....

Klipschorn ($9,000 a pair)
FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 33Hz-17kHz(+-) 4dB
SENSITIVITY: 105dB @ 1watt/1meter

They don't measure as flat or to have the extended 20k bandwidth that the Cornwalls have. I'm aware that doesn't mean they sound worse, but for that kind of money I'm surprised (although I know I shouldn't be--how much do you hear above 17 k and specs don't tell you how "good" they sound compared to Cornwalls...)

The Lascala II ($7,000 a pair)
FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 51Hz-17kHz +/- 4dB
only goes down to 51 hz. I know I'd miss those lower frequencies I'm used to hearing (Model 19's down to 30 hz, Model 14's down to 35 hz)..... Seven grand a pair! Man, vintage Altecs are a real value for "killer" sounding speakers.....

Heresy III ($1700 a pair)
only goes down to 58 hz
FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 58Hz-20kHz(+-)3dB $1700

So, AB, what mods have you done to your Cornwall II's? From your quote, what about them falls short of the Model 19's? I called "Rowe Photo and Video" here in Rochester, NY and they said the Cornwall III's have better drivers and crossovers than the original Cornwalls. Does that apply to the Cornwall II's as well ? Or is he just trying to sell me a pair of Cornwall III's (they are the Klipsch dealer here in Rochester, NY)......
Juniper--and anyone else who's heard Klipsch (I've never heard a pair), how do Cornwalls (or any Klipsch) compare in your opinion to "high end" vintage Altecs==any major strengths or weaknesses that stand out? Just curious....

BTW, AB, do you ever play the 19's and Cornwall II's at the same time? How do they sound together? I've seen people stack 19's with the top 19 upside down--ever tried that with the 19's and Cornwalls?

From Paul Klipsch wiki: "Paul Wilbur Klipsch (March 9, 1904 ? May 5, 2002) was an American engineer and high fidelity audio pioneer, known for developing the high-efficiency folded horn loudspeaker, who revolutionized the way the world listens to recorded music. Unsatisfied with the sound quality of phonographs and early speaker systems, Klipsch used scientific principles to develop a corner horn speaker that sounded more lifelike than its predecessors."

Hmmm, "folded horn" loudspeaker. OK, I admit I'm ignorant to a lot of this technology terminology and have mainly learned about speakers empirically--what sounds good to me. Question, is the folded horn literally a bent horn like on the Model 15's? From what I've heard, that horn is a weak point of the 15's--bending a horn for h.f. use isn't the "best" approach for sound. Is that what they're saying Paul Kipsch developed? A "bent" H.F. horn? Do the Klipsch I've listed above use that kind of "bent" h.f. horn?

An interesting guy whether or not you like his speakers. Also from his wiki
"Eccentricities
The eccentric touch and no-compromise spirit of Paul W. Klipsch has indeed become part of the consumer electronics industry, the practice of engineering, and acoustic research itself. For example, Klipsch related that when he was developing a smaller speaker for use between two Klipschorns, an acquaintance declared that he couldn't possibly introduce it to the public because it was in direct violation of Klipsch's own corner horn principles, and amounted to acoustic heresy. "The hell I can't," Klipsch said. "And that's exactly what I'm going to call it!"[1]

A year later the Klipsch Heresy loudspeaker was introduced and it became a bestseller in the church sound reinforcement market.

While the official company motto is ?The Ultimate Sound Experience,? the unofficial one is ?Bullshit.?[1] Klipsch started using the slogan after reading a competitor?s loudspeaker ad that made claims of supposed ?breakthroughs.? After that, he wore a yellow "Bullshit" button behind his lapel and showed it to anyone he felt was making an outlandish claim.

Many of the outrageous, but absolutely true stories of the eccentricities of Paul W. Klipsch were captured by author Jim Shahin in a 1989 interview for American Way Magazine, who told of his taking notes during sermons so as to better take issue with exasperated ministers after the service. Parishioners even remember his walking over pews to get out of church. He also retells of an audio retailer?s recollection of Klipsch drilling a hole through the top of his Mercedes to install a gauge of some kind."

They mention the bullsh+t slogan as a repsonse to "reading a competitor?s loudspeaker ad that made claims of supposed ?breakthroughs." I wonder if that competitor was ALTEC!!!???

Patents

Stock-and-barrel assembly for firearms. US patent 2205982. Klipsch, P.W., 6/25/1940.[3]
Wave synthesizing network. US patent 2230803. Klipsch, P.W., 2/4/1941.[4]
Electrical prospecting with alternating current. US patent 2231013. Klipsch, P.W., 2/11/1941.[5]
Recording seismic waves. US patent 2232612. Klipsch, P.W., 2/18/1941.[6]
Seismic prospecting. US patent 2232613. Klipsch, P.W., 2/18/1941.[7]
Equalizer. US patent 2238023. Klipsch, P.W., 4/8/1941.[8]
Electrical prospecting. US patent 2243428. Klipsch, P.W., 4/27/1941.[9]
Mixing circuit for electrical prospecting. US patent 2251549. Klipsch, P.W., 8/5/1941.[10]
Method of electrical prospecting. US patent 2293024. Klipsch, P.W., 8/11/1942.[11]
Firearm vibration control. US patent 2302699. Klipsch, P.W., 11/14/1942.[12]
Horn for loud-speaker. US patent 2310243. Klipsch, P.W., 2/9/1943.[13]
Loudspeaker. US patent 2373692. Klipsch, P.W., 4/17/1945.[14]
Rotating band tester. US patent 2450003. Klipsch, P.W., 9/28/1948.[15]
Loud-speaker horn. US patent 2537141. Klipsch, P.W., 1/9/1951.[16]
Crossover filter network. US patent 2612558. Klipsch, P.W., 9/30/1952.[17]

Loudspeaker (Rebel). US patent 2731101. Klipsch, P.W., 9/30/1952.[18]

Logarithmic converter circuit. US patent 3330966. Klipsch, P.W., 7/11/1967.[19]
Small dimension low frequency folded exponential horn loudspeaker with unitary sound path and loudspeaker system including same. US patent 4138594. Klipsch, P.W., 2/6/1979.[20]
Low frequency folded exponential horn loudspeaker apparatus with bifurcated sound path. US patent 4210223. Gillum, G. C./ Klipsch, P.W., 7/1/1980.[21]
Crossover network for optimizing efficiency and improving response of loudspeaker system. US patent 4237340. Klipsch, P.W., 12/2/1980.[22]
Anechoic chamber arrangement. US patent 4387786. Klipsch, P.W/Hunter, J. R., 6/14/1983.[23]"

Impressive, whether or not you like his speakers.....

SOURCE LINKS
Paul Wilbur Klipsch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Floorstanding Speakers-Klipsch
October 19th, 2011, 06:04 PM
gearfreak

Re: OT Klipsch

I've heard La Scala's and Cornwalls.

Caveats:
- Don't recall the CW version.
- It's been a while
- I did not have 'high end' Altec at the time to compare to.
- LS had K-43 high power woofers, not the usual K-33. There are opinions that the 33 goes lower in same enclosure.

CW:
The CW's I heard did not particularly impress, but seemed efficient.
This could be the implementation. iirc at the moment, Solid state, large room, not against walls for any loading.

LS:
I obtained some 511b's for use with the La Scala's, then biamped them 2 way.
Common route I think.

We then got into some beat A7's with 416's.
Audibly, the latter won out. Lower mid and bass was smoother.
Financially as well, per condition. I sold the LS's and stuck with the beat A7's.

(summarized simply, I went with the choice of the larger LF box and stopped trying to push the HF XO point down in order to meet up with the folded horn)

Altec since then, for the sake of standardization and availability.
I have no need for furniture quality veneers, and that is what most of the available Klipsch is/was in my neck of the woods.

Of course, the LS's were portable in comparison! (they were 2 piece pro units).
October 19th, 2011, 07:13 PM
Altec Best

Re: OT Klipsch

Quote:

Originally Posted by voice of the theater

So, AB, what mods have you done to your Cornwall II's?

I have new crossovers from Bob Crites and new Titanium Tweeter Diaphragms from Crites as well.

Quote:

From your quote, what about them falls short of the Model 19's?

The mid horn is the weak point IMO.It's too small.

Quote:

I called "Rowe Photo and Video" here in Rochester, NY and they said the Cornwall III's have better drivers and crossovers than the original Cornwalls. Does that apply to the Cornwall II's as well ? Or is he just trying to sell me a pair of Cornwall III's

I think they are trying to sell you some speakers ! :wink2:

Quote:

BTW, AB, do you ever play the 19's and Cornwall II's at the same time? How do they sound together? I've seen people stack 19's with the top 19 upside down--ever tried that with the 19's and Cornwalls?

Yes I have.Like this you mean ? :biggrin2: The Cornwall IMHO is Klipsch's best sounding speaker.Don't like Khorns much (Shouty) LaScala's are bass (shy)I had a pair of Hersey II's that I sold last year also bass (shy) I thought. So the Cornwall is the Best sounding to these ears. But as my moniker says "Altec Best"
:biggrin2:

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2011/10/50.jpg
October 20th, 2011, 07:26 AM
juniper

Re: OT Klipsch

VOTT, Cornwalls are great all around speakers. They are very comfortable playing any type of music well . As far as what they do best, I would have to say they make some great bass and are fairly well balanced. They never made the hair on the back of my neck stand up like my 604's or 19's can but they are worth a listen. I haven't heard cornwall III's but I have heard they are better than the earlier models. If you are thinking of buying a pair? you might be better served making a cornscalla, which is essentially a cornwall with a larger midrange horn. The klipsch speaker I would like to hear is a jubilee, the consensus on the klipsch board seems to be that for home use they are hard to beat.
October 20th, 2011, 01:52 PM
Nipper

Re: OT Klipsch

I have heard most of the old Klipsch next to Valencias and 19's. The audio dealer I used to frequent in the 70's sold both. I went with the Altecs but had they not been available I would have considered the Klipsch or JBL offerings at the time.

Its no secret, you can learn a lot about Altecs in the Klipsch forums. You can see for yourself that you wont have to look far to see a reference to Altec there... And a lot of them, as well as upgrades to Klipsch using Altec components. I don't recall seeing anyone upgrading their Altecs with Klipsch speakers.

The Klipsch were close but with audio equipment that last bit of perfection pushes the threshold of the manufacturers technology. Klipsch hit their wall before before Altec did.

I'll still give Klipsch credit, Altecs are so good a little less is still excellent.

I was a little surprised to see Altec Best admit he had a set here but I couldn't blame him. If I found a good enough deal on a mint set like that I would find room for them.

The only problem I ever had with Klipsch was I couldn't pronounce it without sounding like I had a speech impediment. :biggrin2:

Had AB displayed a set of 901's we would have had to drum him out. :wink2:
October 20th, 2011, 02:52 PM
Altec Best

Re: OT Klipsch

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nipper

Had AB displayed a set of 901's we would have had to drum him out. :wink2:

Just remember who has the last word other than Todd of course ! :biggrin2:
October 20th, 2011, 08:05 PM
gearfreak

Re: OT Klipsch

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nipper

...I'll still give Klipsch credit, Altecs are so good a little less is still excellent.

Entire section, well said.

...and we have to give them credit for still being an original manufacturer, making modern production, furniture quality/-able horn-loaded vintage designs.
You can't buy much else, 'new' these days, with pedigree, like that.
October 21st, 2011, 09:34 AM
bowtie427ss

Re: OT Klipsch

Quote:

Had AB displayed a set of 901's we would have had to drum him out.

Just my 02 here. But, if i were stranded on an island and had to pick one pair of speakers to spend the rest of my life with, 901's would be many many entries above anything from the Klipsch heritage line.

For my ears and musical tastes the heritage Klipsch and their patent "cupped hands" vocal reproduction is almost instantaneously fatiguing. Then there's that "thing" they call a tweeter..................

Cornwalls are the only model that deliver anything resembling natural bass, and that i could listen to for any length of time. I expect that with some updating/mods they can be quite satisfying, until we add the sum of the parts to a low tech butt jointed plywood cab, and compare that sum to the MSRP that has historically been many times what it "should" be.

OTOH, properly set up(i consider proper amplification to be part of "set up") and EQ'd 901's can keep me listening for a good while. What they do(dynamics, vocals, and a much larger soundstage than one would expect for their physical size), they do well. Of course i miss the extension at both ends of the spectrum, but that is to be expected. But, i must emphasize, the key to making or breaking the 901's presentation is in the set up. It can be an amazing little speaker.

All that said, i'm most likely to stick with loudspeakers produced by companies who actually R&D, engineer, produce, and market transducers as well as completed speaker systems. Not unlike many other speaker manufacturers, PWK's engineering took place as much in the accounting office as it did on the drafting board or test bench. While he does boast some cabinet designs that are innovative and unique, most of his efforts are assemblages of cheap drivers and plywood with high efficiency appearing to be the chief design goal of the heritage systems.

Just my .02................ sometimes a grain of salt helps;)
October 21st, 2011, 10:17 AM
voice of the theater

Re: OT Klipsch

Wow! Tell us how you really feel, Bowtie! ;) BTW, does anyone know if these Klipsch heritage speakers have the "bent/curved" horn like the Altec Model 15 horn? Is that what he supposedly invented?
"Paul Wilbur Klipsch (March 9, 1904 – May 5, 2002) was an American engineer and high fidelity audio pioneer, known for developing the high-efficiency folded horn loudspeaker...."
October 21st, 2011, 11:55 AM
bowtie427ss

Re: OT Klipsch

Quote:

Wow! Tell us how you really feel, Bowtie!

No offense intended toward anyone, especially our members here.

I'm always at a loss to explain the extreme polarity among those who like and claim to dislike 901's or any other Bose effort. My WAG is that many who claim to dislike them, or outright bash them have never actually listened to them, or had an opportunity to hear them properly set up.

I'm not a big fan of the 901, but it does have it's merits. I've listened to various series 901's on multiple occasions in different systems. But, i've never owned my own. I think i could live with them if i had to. There are a LOT of speakers out there that i cannot say that about.

Quote:

BTW, does anyone know if these Klipsch heritage speakers have the "bent/curved" horn like the Altec Model 15 horn? Is that what he supposedly invented?
"Paul Wilbur Klipsch (March 9, 1904 ? May 5, 2002) was an American engineer and high fidelity audio pioneer, known for developing the high-efficiency folded horn loudspeaker...."

I believe this is strictly in reference to "bass horns"(anything you could build from plywood). The Klipschorn was successful enough in it's own right that at least a couple companies bought license to it, EV and Speakerlab immediately come to mind.

AFAIK, ALL of the MF and HF components in the heritage series were simply rebadged, off the shelf components from other manufacturers.
October 21st, 2011, 12:22 PM
gearfreak

Re: OT Klipsch

Quote:

Originally Posted by bowtie427ss

AFAIK, ALL of the MF and HF components in the heritage series were simply rebadged, off the shelf components from other manufacturers.

I tend to agree afaik, though perhaps specifically not the K400 (MR horn, if I have the model # correct).
October 21st, 2011, 12:22 PM
Altec Best

Re: OT Klipsch

FWIW Klipsch mainly design's cabinets.Most if not all the speakers in their cabs are manufactured by other companies like Electro-Voice,Eminence,etc.... In their heritage line anyway.

Thanks Bowtie ! That's basically what I have found too WRT the heritage line.My Cornwall II's do now sound decent after the mods.Especially after changing the diaphragms in the tweeter.Funny thing is I thought the original XO's sounded better,maybe I was just used to them, dunno.But I found the Khorns,LaScala's quite fatiguing as well.The Cornwalls I can listen to.They are more efficient than my 19's,with the same amount of power going to both they play louder so I have to adjust the balance to equalize them. I would take my 19's anyday of the week over them.They don't have the clarity of the 19's either.

Altec Lansing !! Period !!
October 21st, 2011, 01:40 PM
Nipper

Re: OT Klipsch

Quote:

Originally Posted by bowtie427ss

Just my 02 here. But, if i were stranded on an island and had to pick one pair of speakers to spend the rest of my life with, 901's would be many many entries above anything from the Klipsch heritage line.

For my ears and musical tastes the heritage Klipsch and their patent "cupped hands" vocal reproduction is almost instantaneously fatiguing. Then there's that "thing" they call a tweeter..................

Cornwalls are the only model that deliver anything resembling natural bass, and that i could listen to for any length of time. I expect that with some updating/mods they can be quite satisfying, until we add the sum of the parts to a low tech butt jointed plywood cab, and compare that sum to the MSRP that has historically been many times what it "should" be.

I dont think Bowtie likes Klipsch. :biggrin2:
October 21st, 2011, 01:52 PM
bowtie427ss

Re: OT Klipsch

Quote:

I dont think Bowtie likes Klipsch.

They're probably not on my top ten list. But, i don't want to give a blanket impression of being a "hater" either. You will in fact find a pair of those bronze badges here if you look long enough, a pair of KG-4's that serve as HT mains. they fit the application well in terms of sound, footprint size, and cosmetics. I have written multiple posts praising the merits of the KG4, and have no problem giving credit where it's due.

If space and money were no object, i might very well also own a pair of Belles just for their beautiful and iconic cosmetic appearance, they appeal to me that much in that respect.
October 21st, 2011, 02:03 PM
Altec Best

Re: OT Klipsch

Quote:

Originally Posted by bowtie427ss

If space and money were no object, i might very well also own a pair of Belles just for their beautiful and iconic cosmetic appearance, they appeal to me that much in that respect.

I had a chance to hear a pair of Belles, a friend of mine had 2 pair of LaScalas and a pair of Belles and IMO they sounded a lot like the LaScalas I thought just prettier. :biggrin2:
October 21st, 2011, 02:05 PM
gearfreak

Re: OT Klipsch

I liked the idea of their (more or less) modern production giant pro folded horn wedges. They made some huge stuff .
I forget the model #'s. Never got that far, never heard any, never found any within reasonable distance. User Coyote (sp?) had/has some iirc.
October 21st, 2011, 10:40 PM
Ronald Lee

Re: OT Klipsch

Quote:

Originally Posted by bowtie427ss

No offense intended toward anyone, especially our members here.

I'm always at a loss to explain the extreme polarity among those who like and claim to dislike 901's or any other Bose effort. My WAG is that many who claim to dislike them, or outright bash them have never actually listened to them, or had an opportunity to hear them properly set up.

I'm not a big fan of the 901, but it does have it's merits. I've listened to various series 901's on multiple occasions in different systems. But, i've never owned my own. I think i could live with them if i had to. There are a LOT of speakers out there that i cannot say that about.

I believe this is strictly in reference to "bass horns"(anything you could build from plywood). The Klipschorn was successful enough in it's own right that at least a couple companies bought license to it, EV and Speakerlab immediately come to mind.

AFAIK, ALL of the MF and HF components in the heritage series were simply rebadged, off the shelf components from other manufacturers.

Years ago, I had a chance to meet Paul Klispsh when the AES had their convention at the Los Angeles Hilton(it is long gone), he was pretty old back then, and I met his wife Belle. For which these speakers were named after. The finish on the Belle Klipsh was really amazing, mirror smooth. I put my hand on one to feel the finish, and a few seconds later a Klipsch employee came and wipe it.

ETA: I also got one of his yellow "bullshit" buttons.
October 22nd, 2011, 02:18 AM
SOOTSHE

Re: OT Klipsch

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altec Best

I had a chance to hear a pair of Belles, a friend of mine had 2 pair of LaScalas and a pair of Belles and IMO they sounded a lot like the LaScalas I thought just prettier. :biggrin2:

The Belles use the same components as the LS except for the mid horn, (that's why it sounds the same) but the cabinet dimensions were changed slightly & it was a completely finished timber work with matching grilles to make it more presentable for home use. At the time the LS was primarily used for voice reproduction in a PA application, but became popular for home use in either raw finish or a number of different stains.

You can now buy the LS in the same completely finished form, as the Belle is no longer available.

If you care to change most of the components, you can turn this design into one of the best sounding speakers available. I wouldn't call it a Klipsch speaker then, but the end result is more than worthwhile.
October 22nd, 2011, 12:34 PM
SJ David

Re: OT Klipsch

Quote:

Originally Posted by voice of the theater

Wow! Tell us how you really feel, Bowtie! ;) BTW, does anyone know if these Klipsch heritage speakers have the "bent/curved" horn like the Altec Model 15 horn? Is that what he supposedly invented?
"Paul Wilbur Klipsch (March 9, 1904 – May 5, 2002) was an American engineer and high fidelity audio pioneer, known for developing the high-efficiency folded horn loudspeaker...."

The curved horn of the Model 15 harkens back to the Western Electric theater system and the early phonograph systems. It is a means to fit a horn into a smaller package which is what Klipsch was doing with his folded bass horn design but on a much smaller scale. Bends in a horn have a detrimental effect on the wave transmission. Straight bass horns are not domestically compatible so a compromise is accepted to fit a large horn in a smaller space a la the Klipschhorn. I recall reading somewhere, possibly from Bruce Edgar, is that any such compromise should be to limit the number of bends and limit each bend to not more than 90 degrees. Further, if you have many sharp bends bifurcating the path- splitting larger cross sections into small cross sections- mitigates the effect of the bends on the wave front. The bass horn section of the Klipschorn is split into two paths. So if all this holds up in practice the single 90 degree bend of the Altec 32 horn should have limited effect on the wave front.

I don't recall Klipsch using a curved horn for the mid or high applications, at least for what we now know as the Heritage line. JBL, University and others used a small package curved horn for high frequency applications.