Pilot tube amps!!!!

I was looking on craigslist, and found an ad for a pilot console. I have been looking for a pilot sp-210 for awhile, after reading a 6 MOONS article, where after hearing one, he quickly sold his 9,000 ARC reference preamp.
So I end up meeting this lady and her phone will not stop ringing, so I decide to have her deliver it because someone might offer her more, although it is fairly priced from my initial inspection. So I bring it home and the next day start opening it up. I have in the past thought of doing this but the pieces were to nice to destroy. Not this one,!!!!! it is so ugly I think I am doing the world a favor. Sure enough, it says pilot sp 210 on the pre, it was so dark in her garage I couldnt see it on the golden face plate. Then I get to amplifier I start looking at it and it is gold in color also. Turns out it's a sa-260 which from what I have read, has about 40 watts per channel !!!!. I can't wait to have these things restorated!!!

Pictures,Pictures,Pictures !!!

Here are some pictures!!!

WOW :emot127:

Thanks Nipper!!!! they are very cool looking up close, hopefully they sound as good as they look???? If they Damage my ALTECS I will throw them out the window!!!!:p

The dog loves old equipment.... I'll bring a net. :biggrin2:

Nice find.
Going to have them restored? I hope you find someone good. As long as the iron is all ok, it should be easy. Shoot, they might even work as is if brought up slow on a variac.
What vintage? Specifics on the amp? Tubes used etc.
That is a project I'd love to tackle myself. But then I'm a tube head.
BTW....I know a guy......we are in Portland OR.

Ron

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Originally Posted by RonSSS

Nice find.
Going to have them restored? I hope you find someone good. As long as the iron is all ok, it should be easy. Shoot, they might even work as is if brought up slow on a variac.
What vintage? Specifics on the amp? Tubes used etc.
That is a project I'd love to tacle myself. But then I'm a tube head.
BTW....I know a guy......we are in Portland OR.

Ron

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Unfortunetly, I have never even listened to a tube amp, and know nothing about electronics! I have just heard that they sound great with horn type speakers. I would hate to ship these so I am trying to find service locally in the Minneapolis/st.paul area. It has been difficult so far. I tried to use Van Alistine who have done some famous work, but they dont work on these type of tube amps. As far as tubes it was filled with telefunkins, mullards, and pilot specked tubes. EL34's and 12ax7's????

Guys, if you can point me in the right direction, as far as restoring these amps it would be great!!! first steps an such!!!

try here -

www.diyaudio.com





gotta wonder , what needs restoration?

look fine from here ...

Those are nice, indeed. I'm West of Mpls. and happen to know a few guys that mess around with tube gear. In fact, I know someone that owned a Pilot 260. I'd be happy to ask around if that would help. I tried the tube route, owned a few amps, receivers, tuners, never found the magic that my buddies have found. I have heard some really great tube systems, just couldn't replicate it as easy as using my SS gear.
I'm curious as to what you may have done with the rest of the console, I assume those were housed in a console.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tomt

try here -

diyAudio





gotta wonder , what needs restoration?

look fine from here ...

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tomt thanks for the link, I have just read that with these old amps you need to have capacitors changed out and the resistors, and transformers checked out. These pieces are from the late 50's so the are probably due for a little service!

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Originally Posted by westend9

Those are nice, indeed. I'm West of Mpls. and happen to know a few guys that mess around with tube gear. In fact, I know someone that owned a Pilot 260. I'd be happy to ask around if that would help. I tried the tube route, owned a few amps, receivers, tuners, never found the magic that my buddies have found. I have heard some really great tube systems, just couldn't replicate it as easy as using my SS gear.
I'm curious as to what you may have done with the rest of the console, I assume those were housed in a console.

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Westend9 It would be great if you could ask around. As far as the console If you would like you can have it. I have left the turntable in it is gerrard unit. As far as tube gear, what type of speakers did you try your EQ with? Thanks

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Originally Posted by juniper

need to have capacitors changed out and the resistors,

probably due for a little service!

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not always, but there are ways to be sure.

I'm curious.

You bought what appears to be mint vintage Pilot tube gear and you have never heard tube equipment?
And you know nothing about electronics?
Did you even know whether the stuff works or not?
How much did you pay for it?

Vintage tube gear can sound wonderful properly restored.
But it isn't for the casual audio amatuer unless you either know how to work on it yourself or have a good source who can.

Ron

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RonSSS

I'm curious.

You bought what appears to be mint vintage Pilot tube gear and you have never heard tube equipment?
And you know nothing about electronics?
Did you even know whether the stuff works or not?
How much did you pay for it?

Vintage tube gear can sound wonderful properly restored.
But it isn't for the casual audio amatuer unless you either know how to work on it yourself or have a good source who can.

Ron

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RonSSS, well I have only been at this as a hobby for about 2 years and I have been through a lot of mid-fi gear and I have always heard that horn type speakers sound best with tube amps. As far as knowing nothing about electronics, I don't and the idea of playing around inside of a tube amp isn't my cup of tea! Ron when I said I haven't heard any tube EQ I meant as in listened to and no, I dont know if it works.
Thanks

Ok, so what are you going to do with them?

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Originally Posted by RonSSS

Ok, so what are you going to do with them?

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Ronsss, what would you do ? I have read, that these can be great sounding amps???

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Originally Posted by juniper

Ronsss, what would you do ? I have read, that these can be great sounding amps???

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Well, from the photos, your amp looks mint. Probably untouched. A quick search on ebay etc revealed that it's quite valuable. Around a grand. So I would treat it nice!

First I'd test the tubes. All are common and easy to find. And it has a nice tube compliment. Dual rectifiers even. that's a bit rare.

Next I'd plug the tubes in,and power it up slow with a variac. This allows you to adjust the line voltage from 0-120 very slowly. Doing this will reform the electrolytic power supply caps if they aren't dead. While doing this, a 1khz sine wave is fed to the input jacks for both left and right channels. 100mV usually works well. The outputs are terminated into 8 ohm 100W resistors and that is monitored with a scope.
At the same time tha B+ (main supply voltage) and output tube bias voltage is monitored with a DVM.
once you get to about 60 volts on the power cord, the amp will begin to operate. At about 90v it will operate pretty much normally but with reduced power output. Once you get to 120v, it should be singing!

Along the way any issues would be found. Either the B+ doesn't work, or the bias is all messed up, or the output looks bad.
Any issues during the slow turn on can be fixed. As I said, if the transformers are good, the rest is easy.

The whole process takes a few hours if all is well, and when done you can check power output, freq response, check square wave operation, and measure distortion.

Once it's all up and running, you go back and test all resistors and caps for value and change as necessary.

I'm a tube head and have all of this test equipment. I have worked at Tektronix for 34 years as a tech, eng tech, and now am in project management. We make oscilloscopes. And all other kinds of high end electronic test equip etc.

My own system is all tube and I built the power amps myself from the best parts stolen from vintage equipment.

Anyway, that's what I'd do because I can.
You need to find a local guy like me, or even better like my buddy who basically does this for a living now since he was laid off from Tek a number of years ago. No one I know is more picky, anal and a downright perfectionest when it comes to this work.

Ron

Nice score. I have been casually keeping an eye out for Pilot tube electronics since the seventies, but have not run across any.
Just out of curiosity, what speakers did they use in that console?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RonSSS

Well, from the photos, your amp looks mint. Probably untouched. A quick search on ebay etc revealed that it's quite valuable. Around a grand. So I would treat it nice!

First I'd test the tubes. All are common and easy to find. And it has a nice tube compliment. Dual rectifiers even. that's a bit rare.

Next I'd plug the tubes in,and power it up slow with a variac. This allows you to adjust the line voltage from 0-120 very slowly. Doing this will reform the electrolytic power supply caps if they aren't dead. While doing this, a 1khz sine wave is fed to the input jacks for both left and right channels. 100mV usually works well. The outputs are terminated into 8 ohm 100W resistors and that is monitored with a scope.
At the same time tha B+ (main supply voltage) and output tube bias voltage is monitored with a DVM.
once you get to about 60 volts on the power cord, the amp will begin to operate. At about 90v it will operate pretty much normally but with reduced power output. Once you get to 120v, it should be singing!

Along the way any issues would be found. Either the B+ doesn't work, or the bias is all messed up, or the output looks bad.
Any issues during the slow turn on can be fixed. As I said, if the transformers are good, the rest is easy.

The whole process takes a few hours if all is well, and when done you can check power output, freq response, check square wave operation, and measure distortion.

Once it's all up and running, you go back and test all resistors and caps for value and change as necessary.

I'm a tube head and have all of this test equipment. I have worked at Tektronix for 34 years as a tech, eng tech, and now am in project management. We make oscilloscopes. And all other kinds of high end electronic test equip etc.

My own system is all tube and I built the power amps myself from the best parts stolen from vintage equipment.

Anyway, that's what I'd do because I can.
You need to find a local guy like me, or even better like my buddy who basically does this for a living now since he was laid off from Tek a number of years ago. No one I know is more picky, anal and a downright perfectionest when it comes to this work.

Ron

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Thanks, Ron this is very confusing to me! I have read some conflicting veiws about vintage tube amp care. Many say replace all the things that might fail, others say keep them as original as possible. I just want as much out of these amps as I can have. I wish you were closer or your friend. I contacted the local broadcast museum, hopefully they gave me a good recommendation as far as repair. I will use your advice when I speak with them. Thanks again

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Originally Posted by speakerdave

Nice score. I have been casually keeping an eye out for Pilot tube electronics since the seventies, but have not run across any.
Just out of curiosity, what speakers did they use in that console?

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Speakerdave, I did a little research on the speakers there are 8 jensen speakers the largest ones only seems to have a little importance for guitar players.

I have an old Fisher console circa 1958 that uses three 8" Jensens per side. Pleasant sounding, if not real Hi-Fi.

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Originally Posted by Panomaniac

I have an old Fisher console circa 1958 that uses three 8" Jensens per side. Pleasant sounding, if not real Hi-Fi.

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That's an odd configuration. What model of driver?

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Originally Posted by juniper

Speakerdave, I did a little research on the speakers there are 8 jensen speakers the largest ones only seems to have a little importance for guitar players.

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I'm not following you sentence structure........ are you really saying that only the largest Jensen drivers have any value, although small? If so, that's incorrect. Some Jensen drivers go for quite a bit, and some don't. It has more to do with the model than the size, in my observation. The highest dollar Jensen drivers I've sold were P10R's........ one went to Germany, and the other to AZ, I think. I got over $200 for the one driver going to Germany, if I recall correctly. I've also done fairly well selling some of the 8" Jensen drivers.

P12N's sell well....... the P12NF's that I have don't :-(

On the other hand if you're comparing their value to 604's or 755A's, Jensen drivers are cheap.

ABG, All I was trying to convey is the info that I received from the local speaker shop. They said that the smaller speakers and crossover have little value, but the larger ones sell for around 130.00 a piece and some people put them in vintage guitar amps. They are Special Design p12ps sorry if my statement, sounded crass.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by juniper

ABG, All I was trying to convey is the info that I received from the local speaker shop. They said that the smaller speakers and crossover have little value, but the larger ones sell for around 130.00 a piece and some people put them in vintage guitar amps. They are Special Design p12ps sorry if my statement, sounded crass.....

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It didn't sound crass, it just sounded, wrong....... if I was understanding what you were trying to convey. It sounds like the guy at the speaker shop only pays attention to new speaker sales, or can't be bothered with anything under $100. A friend of mine that did/does pro-sound places little value on anything Altec, because it's "old and isn't servicable".......... My point is that usually retailers aren't a good source for info on anything vintage, and don't know the difference's between what sells well, and what doesn't. For instance the blue frame in the auction below helped greatly with the price.

Vintage 1958 12

What tends to have very little if any value, in my experience are small cone mids and cone tweeters that I find in consoles. Most of my experience is with Magnavox and Fisher consoles, so that may not apply to other companies......... I've never even seen a Pilot console.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RonSSS

Well, from the photos, your amp looks mint. Probably untouched. A quick search on ebay etc revealed that it's quite valuable. Around a grand. So I would treat it nice!

First I'd test the tubes. All are common and easy to find. And it has a nice tube compliment. Dual rectifiers even. that's a bit rare.

Next I'd plug the tubes in,and power it up slow with a variac. This allows you to adjust the line voltage from 0-120 very slowly. Doing this will reform the electrolytic power supply caps if they aren't dead. While doing this, a 1khz sine wave is fed to the input jacks for both left and right channels. 100mV usually works well. The outputs are terminated into 8 ohm 100W resistors and that is monitored with a scope.
At the same time tha B+ (main supply voltage) and output tube bias voltage is monitored with a DVM.
once you get to about 60 volts on the power cord, the amp will begin to operate. At about 90v it will operate pretty much normally but with reduced power output. Once you get to 120v, it should be singing!

Along the way any issues would be found. Either the B+ doesn't work, or the bias is all messed up, or the output looks bad.
Any issues during the slow turn on can be fixed. As I said, if the transformers are good, the rest is easy.

The whole process takes a few hours if all is well, and when done you can check power output, freq response, check square wave operation, and measure distortion.

Once it's all up and running, you go back and test all resistors and caps for value and change as necessary.

I'm a tube head and have all of this test equipment. I have worked at Tektronix for 34 years as a tech, eng tech, and now am in project management. We make oscilloscopes. And all other kinds of high end electronic test equip etc.

My own system is all tube and I built the power amps myself from the best parts stolen from vintage equipment.

Anyway, that's what I'd do because I can.
You need to find a local guy like me, or even better like my buddy who basically does this for a living now since he was laid off from Tek a number of years ago. No one I know is more picky, anal and a downright perfectionest when it comes to this work.

Ron

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Very Good Post Ron ! Nice explanation in getting that old tube amp hopefully up and running smoothly.

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Originally Posted by Audio_by_Goodwill

That's an odd configuration. What model of driver?

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I don't remember. Will poke my head in there and check. They may not have model numbers. I do remember that it's 2 of one type, one of the other, all 8". No crossover, all wired parallel.
Have been thinking about putting my SABA green cones in there for mids.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Panomaniac

I don't remember. Will poke my head in there and check. They may not have model numbers. I do remember that it's 2 of one type, one of the other, all 8". No crossover, all wired parallel.
Have been thinking about putting my SABA green cones in there for mids.

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They should have a P#x stamped on them some place, or something similar.

Thanks man. It's actually a fun process!

Ron

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Originally Posted by Altec Best

Very Good Post Ron ! Nice explanation in getting that old tube amp hopefully up and running smoothly.

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I just thought that I should finish this thread, I always hate when there is something I am interested in and the op never ends the story.... I finally found someone who could work on my amps locally, it took forever. Who would think that so few people work on tube amps other than guitar shops.. I found a gentleman who worked at atma-sphere audio and he did a great job. These are fine amps and the best I have heard with my Altecs. Crystal clear, big sound stage, good imaging, and fast powerful bass. I dont know alot about electronics but have purchased a few. All around, these are the best I have heard. Thanks for all the the advice everyone, and RonSSS he used your guidelines to a T... Thanks all!!!

so it's finally restorated. :D
i will have to dream of tube amps for a while.

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Originally Posted by juniper

I just thought that I should finish this thread, I always hate when there is something I am interested in and the op never ends the story.... I finally found someone who could work on my amps locally, it took forever. Who would think that so few people work on tube amps other than guitar shops.. I found a gentleman who worked at atma-sphere audio and he did a great job. These are fine amps and the best I have heard with my Altecs. Crystal clear, big sound stage, good imaging, and fast powerful bass. I dont know alot about electronics but have purchased a few. All around, these are the best I have heard. Thanks for all the the advice everyone, and RonSSS he used your guidelines to a T... Thanks all!!!

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Juniper,

Good going. What did the technician at Atmosphere find?? Did he need to replace anything at all, or, was it just a Variac UP slowly and measure voltages DC and AC ?? MY thought would be to change as LITTLE as possible, and do a SLOW variac up. Those vintage tubes will likely sound better than modern day replacements !!

There is a whole world of DIY amp building available for you and others. Owning Altecs, you are fortunate, because they are efficient enough to run on low powered tube amps, one to three Watts, which will be the purest sounding amps of all available.

Have fun, and tell us what it needed.

Jeff Medwin

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Originally Posted by LowOhms

Juniper,

Good going. What did the technician at Atmosphere find?? Did he need to replace anything at all, or, was it just a Variac UP slowly and measure voltages DC and AC ?? MY thought would be to change as LITTLE as possible, and do a SLOW variac up. Those vintage tubes will likely sound better than modern day replacements !!

There is a whole world of DIY amp building available for you and others. Owning Altecs, you are fortunate, because they are efficient enough to run on low powered tube amps, one to three Watts, which will be the purest sounding amps of all available.

Have fun, and tell us what it needed.

Jeff Medwin

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I told him to keep them as original as possible but I wanted them to also be safe for daily use. He recommended replacing all of the large capacitors cans, and anything that drifted out of spec.. I had him save all the parts so if the next owner wants to place them back he can. I ended up with a small bag of parts with about 30 resistors, and 10 caps. Unfortunately the 5u4 gb's had to be replaced and he also suggested a matched quad for the 6ca7's. He also put a heavy duty cord on the amp. I would love to hear some low powered set amps with my Altecs, at 40 watts per channel the sa-260 is a little overkill, the volume knob starts at 6 and I rarely put it to 9. What really suprised me is how versatile the sp 210 is and how well the tone controls work... With other preamps I have had, I never used the tone controls, because I didnt like what they added, with this pre it is different.

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Originally Posted by RonSSS

I'm a tube head and have all of this test equipment. I have worked at Tektronix for 34 years as a tech, eng tech, and now am in project management. We make oscilloscopes. And all other kinds of high end electronic test equip etc.

My own system is all tube and I built the power amps myself from the best parts stolen from vintage equipment.

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Nice to read this resurrected thread. Good stuff.

Not to hijack, Ron, but I've built a couple of tube amp kits and have been thinking about picking up an old Analog scope. I was looking at the Tek 465s or maybe a newer 2245. Any suggestions/recommendations? If I was more than a few years younger, I'd be looking to apprentice in a vintage amp shop.