Altec 604 E reconing options.
Hello to all of you,
I am very pleased to be a new member of the Altec User's Board.i have the opportunity to buy 604 E in pretty good cosmetic condition for a very decent price.Before going ahead i want to make sure that i have the right solution to get it reconed if i find out that it would benefit from a reconing.What are my best options:
.Try very hard to find a NOS kit both for the hi freq diaphram and the low frequency cone.Are those NOS offers on eBay reliable and if yes which exact references should i look for.
.Go for an after market solution and which are the best one for the diaphragm and the cone(I understand from what i read that I should avoid Radian as well as chinese products).
.Order from GPA but i am told that the low frequency cone they use in the 604 H II and III are different from the original(more handling power,not as fast?).
Thanks a lot for your help.
Charles.
Re: Altec 604 E reconing options.
All the info you seek is available for the cost of a long distance phone call to Bill or Steve at GPA.
FWIW, i have series III cones in my 604-8G's, i think they're lighter/faster than originals.
Don't stock E's and G's use the same cone?
I think GPA still has/sources E/G style cones.
Call and get the last word from those folks.
Re: Altec 604 E reconing options.
thanks for your reply.If i understand well you are enjoying your 604-8 G with a series III woofer reconing.Did you ever have the opportunityto compare your reconed 604-8 G with the GPA 604-8-H III and if yes which one did you like best when it comes to voices reproduction.
Re: Altec 604 E re-coning options.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
charly1944
Hello to all of you,
I am very pleased to be a new member of the Altec User's Board.Thanks a lot for your help.
Charles.
Hello Charles ! Welcome to the board ! Hope you find all the info you need to help keep those nice drivers still thumping.I agree with going to GPA for all your Altec parts and repairs.Stay away from after market stuff on eBay and the like.IMHO you will be just throwing good money after BAD !!!.Bill makes some very nice replacement diaphragms.They are considered Altec factory replacements.He bought all the tooling from the Altec plant when they closed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bowtie427ss
FWIW, i have series III cones in my 604-8G's, i think they're lighter/faster than originals.
My 604-8G's still have their pristine 23739-4 cones in them.That sound real nice.Fast, but not as fast as a 416 me thinks.Now with Bills cones/#'s I'm not as familiar with the different cones he has except for the 416's I had re-coned that sound great.So I don't understand some of the folks who don't like the new cones from GPA.I tried to A/B them with my M19 416's and I think the re-mag/re-cones sound a little better actually.But it was very hard to even distinguish a difference IMO.
Re: Altec 604 E re-coning options.
Thanks a lot for your answer.I will send the driver to GPA,if i get it, since it looks like the more consistent recommendation.Probably a lot of similar concerns and questions could be once for all adressed if measures(on and off axis freq responses+ directivity index) and listening(in a room properly treated) comparison performed in serious and fair conditions and published for the GPA 604 HII,III and few 604 vintage models.But this may imply more work than i imagine.
Since i am proposed one 604 E only and would have to acquire a second one separately,will it be difficult to match the second one with the first or is it a relatively easy undertaking with the help of GPA?I will call Bill on monday but it may be too late for the opportunity i have.Few other people are interested in the driver.
Re: Altec 604 E reconing options.
Greets!
FWIW, even though the ?E? is a very popular version I?ve the most experience with and most used in recording studios AFAIK; the original with its much larger horn and nominally 1 kHz XO is the best of the series since it has an XO that matches up best overall with a 15? in general [with around 900 Hz being the ~ ideal], not mention sounds best to me and AFAIK everyone that?s been fortunate enough to compare the original to any of the later small horn models.
All things considered then, buying a new pair of the S3 is what I would do since its horn is larger and its profile produces a much better power response overall, probably even better than the original, though disappointed that GPA didn?t go the ?extra mile? to get the overall best horn/woofer match-up. I guess they didn?t want to get too far a field from the 604?s ?signature? [vintage] sound.
Also, if you know someone locally with good XO design skills, I recommend buying them without XOs or at least not using them as is and have a proper time delayed one developed based on Jeff?s:
http://home.earthlink.net/~jmarkwart/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/604_8Hpcwmfeq.pdf
Be sure and read about omitting HF loading caps in case they are standard on the S3, which of course will affect the XO design if you choose to try it: http://home.earthlink.net/~jmarkwart/id21.html
Anyway, please keep us periodically updated since as you know, there?s no such thing as having too much published ?hands on? experience for others to help make an informed buying decision.
GM
Re: Altec 604 E reconing options.
Hello GM,
Thanks a lot for your very useful and interesting information.It is the first time that i hear that the first generation 604 (i guess you are refering to 604 and 604B)sounds actually better that the later one.I have indeed always struggled with the high crossover point (1500 to1600)which gives a hard job to the woofer and may be the cause of the shoutiness i have heard with some 604E i have listened to.Thanks also for advising me to read the recommendation of Jeff Marwart regarding cross over and loading caps.I contacted him and he was kind enough to answer my questions.He also recommended the GPAIII with the help of a sub.
Today,i am back to square regarding the option vintage vs GPA since i missed the 604 E opportunity.
Incidentally,my local reconer,who is supposed to be a competent one is telling me that he has low frequency cones produced by Nuway in the US which are the original Altec woofer since Nuway was producing those cones for Altec.I am not sure how to check wether this info is reliable . Any body who can comment on that with a documented information is welcome.I 'll keep you posted with the development of my project.
Re: Altec 604 E reconing options.
Greets!
You're welcome!
Specifically some of the 604Bs sold, so I guess I shouldn?t refer to them as the ?original? per se. The earlier versions quickly came and went as they experimented with XOs up to at least a nominal 2 kHz and maybe other design aspects I?m not aware of [I don?t recall ever being exposed to any specs of these except in old sales literature the local distributor still had back in the ?60s]; presumably to find the 'sweet spot' trade-off between sound quality [SQ] Vs power handling and/or off axis response in the earliest days of stereo experimentation. Even then, Altec apparently allowed the buyer a choice and/or specified different XOs depending on the app as I've seen 604Bs with 1.5 kHz XOs pulled from a radio station monitor system upgrade.
Never heard of Nuway, but then I never bothered to do any re-coning since I was fortunate enough to have easy/cheap access to both plenty of used drivers and an excellent re-coner with magnetizer only a few miles away. Frankly, I thought Altec made their own based on what I saw in a ?68 plant tour, though don?t recall actually seeing them made, but it seems reasonable that due to the drastic changes to the company in more recent times that it would farm out an increasing number of parts/subassemblies same as happened in other markets.
WRT speaker/horn ?shout?, this is usually due to improper frequency shaping [EQ]. With vintage speakers designed for high output impedance, just switching to a low one [PP tubes and especially SS] automatically causes it to a greater or lesser extent depending on the speaker?s design, XO point/slope. In the 604E?s case, shelving the horn by ear will roll off the extreme HF too much, so the mids tend to be too ?hot? relative to the woofer?s output, so the ?fix? is to level match the mids to the woofer, then wire a by-pass cap around the XO to let some portion of the HF through unattenuated.
Unfortunately, it took Altec till the mid ?70s to do proper driver, XO designs for ~ pure voltage amp loading in a ?too little, too late? attempt to maintain/recover lost market share.
GM
Re: Altec 604 E reconing options.
Thanks GM for all this valuable information.
I am giving myself 2 months before i go to the GPA brand new solution.I am using this time to try to listen to them here in Paris.Meanwhile, i am looking actively for either a good pair of 604E in mint condition,with original cones and diaphrams ,to be sent to GPA for remag or in average condition,but at a low price ,to be reconed and restored by GPA. They are difficult to find .I see much more 604 C and D,some of them in pretty good shape,but i cannot find any specs about them.I understand that the C and D are pretty similar and read that their Fs is around 50 hz.This looks pretty high to me.That is why i am more interested in the E .Any solution, apart from a sub,to get some bass out of such drivers.Is a reconing of an old 604 D with 604 E diaphragms going to mitigate the problem or is it only an insult to collector without any added value in terms of bass extension.
Re: Altec 604 E reconing options.
You're welcome!
B,C, D series were all listed as having a 40 Hz Fs, but never measured any, so don't know how accurate this is. I just know all the basic factory cabs recommended for them were tuned to around 42 Hz and since they tuned to Fs back then...........
Qts will be low to couple to a high output impedance and Vas will be high to keep efficiency up, so about the same as the original 'E' except for a published ~25 Hz Fs that in reality averaged 29.5 Hz in all the measured specs I've seen; whereas the 8G, 8H, 8K, 8L averaged 26.6 Hz. Based on these, the B, C, D, series may indeed have been closer to 50 Hz, but then what really matters is how much does cab, playback loading drops it.
No clue about re-coning, that's for GPA to answer, but I'm guessing that there's only one re-cone kit available for 604s these days and I'm betting it's not going to be the one listed for any older than the E and maybe not even its original. For sure, there's no early 515, 604, 803, etc. series paper surround cone kits left and why good condition originals go for major 'coin of the realm'.
GM
Re: Altec 604 E reconing options.
FWIW I have always felt my "C" sounded better than my "E".
Re: Altec 604 E reconing options.
Interesting, can you be more specific? I don't recall ever being 'up close' to a C or D, jumping from a well used B in an original A5 used for school PA apps to another person's E that I got to try in different cab loadings.
Re: Altec 604 E reconing options.
Thanks for the info.Which type of cabinets and crossover do you use?Have they got original cones/diaphragms or are they reconed with GPA cones?Are you using a sug with them?Any body knows what the reference D I' means for a 604 D?
Re: Altec 604 E reconing options.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GM
Interesting, can you be more specific? I don't recall ever being 'up close' to a C or D, jumping from a well used B in an original A5 used for school PA apps to another person's E that I got to try in different cab loadings.
I can't say that my E is in perfect order although Bill said it was at GPA, and when Listening to both, the C has always seemed like it seems brighter, like the cone is making the sound more effortlessly than the E is. I'm not sure what's different besides the surrounds on them whether there is something different in the windings or not I don't know. overall it seems louder?/clearer and brighter than the E.
Re: Altec 604 E reconing options.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
charly1944
Thanks for the info.Which type of cabinets and crossover do you use?Have they got original cones/diaphragms or are they reconed with GPA cones?Are you using a sug with them?Any body knows what the reference D I' means for a 604 D?
I built some cabs they're on here. I'm running the GPA N-1600 crossovers and my speakers both have the original cones the c has the original phram the E's was replaced by Bill. Nope no sub, not needed my house damn near shakes off it's foundation. Currently running a Harman Kardon 3390 ss amp/ receiver. and a nady equalizer. sounds pretty impressive. ;)
Re: Altec 604 E reconing options.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cradeldorf
the C has always seemed like it seems brighter
Seems reasonable, what with its higher Fs, i.e. less moving mass, though I figured Altec would have tried harder to maintain its tone a bit closer between models.
GM
Re: Altec 604 E reconing options.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GM
Seems reasonable, what with its higher Fs, i.e. less moving mass, though I figured Altec would have tried harder to maintain its tone a bit closer between models.
GM
Less moving mass and technically larger cone. The surround on the C is not near as large as the accordion surround of the E. I would also bet there could be a noticeable difference because there is so much less coating on the C's surround as opposed to how much is stuck in the grooves of the E's accordion design, weighing it down. I thought maybe they went to the accordion design in an effort to be able to claim the ability to handle more watts? which is pretty much what was happening at the time. everybody was going into the "I need more power" age. or they thought it was a better choice for the Solid State age.
Re: Altec 604 E reconing options.
Re: Altec 604 E reconing options.
Very interesting discussion, It amazes me how many different opinions people have about their Altecs and those that have heard Altecs. Altecs Best it suprises me to hear that you think your 604's aren't as fast as your 416's. My experience, is the opposite. My 604's were reconed and remaged at GPA and seem to be much quicker than my 416b's. These also, were tested by GPA and one has one of their new cones, the other which was origanal was fine. Per the previous owner he demanded that the 416's be matched as closely as possible and Bill said that there was no need to replace the old cone to match. I think I will buy a 416 off ebay to see if it helps out the 19's.
Re: Altec 604 E reconing options.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
juniper
Very interesting discussion, It amazes me how many different opinions people have about their Altecs and those that have heard Altecs. Altecs Best it suprises me to hear that you think your 604's aren't as fast as your 416's.
Well let me explain a bit, maybe "wasn't as fast" was the wrong analogy.Don't get me wrong I love my 604G's that are practically brand new very low mileage.They are pristine WRT the cones and HF diaphragms.I bought them from a defunct Church TV studio that was only in operation for 5 years from mid/late seventies to the early eighties.They were mounted in the control room in 612C cabs.Cabs only have a few blemishes on them where the cabs were painted black on the sides that were mounted away from the wall and holes drilled for the hardware.And the usual surround dope that dripped down onto the cabs.They also came with the circumferential phase plugs.loading caps and the 23744 Diaphragms.They sound real nice the clarity is astonishing.But WRT to the bass I just felt they didn't go as low or as tight as a 416 which btw is my favorite woofer 416B.To be fair though they were with the stock XO's :redface2:My 19's have rebuilt XO's that improved the overall performance dramatically so I suspect the same for the 604's when I get around to it.Just what I need another Altec project !:Thumbs up: :Big smile:
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Re: Altec 604 E reconing options.
Hello,
Yesterday night i woke up at 4.15 in the morning (Paris time) for something exciting: I finally won the auction for a pair of 604 D .The speakers will be soon on their way to GPA to be restored . From what i read here from Cradeldorf as well as (indirectly ) from Ken Shindo the original paper cones together with paper surround used in the C and early D models sound smoother than the late D and E models with the accordeon type model . If i am lucky,GPA will have a pair of those left.If not i will go anyway with their new cone with accordeon surround.
I noticed that about 5 mm of front of the mouth of the hi freq horns were filed down.I dont know for what reason that was done and wether it has an impact on the sound . Anybody aware of this kind of practices?
If you were in my situation (listening to classical music and jazz in a rather small room and more interested in the subtelty of the music than in deep bass or high power handling)what would you ask Bill to concentrate on for optimal restoration ? GM,Jeff,does it help to ask GPA to measure the specs of the restored speakers for optimal cabinets building and crossover design.
Re: Altec 604 E reconing options.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
charly1944
Hello,
Yesterday night i woke up at 4.15 in the morning (Paris time) for something exciting: I finally won the auction for a pair of 604 D .The speakers will be soon on their way to GPA to be restored . From what i read here from Cradeldorf as well as (indirectly ) from Ken Shindo the original paper cones together with paper surround used in the C and early D models sound smoother than the late D and E models with the accordeon type model . If i am lucky,GPA will have a pair of those left.If not i will go anyway with their new cone with accordeon surround.
I noticed that about 5 mm of front of the mouth of the hi freq horns were filed down.I dont know for what reason that was done and wether it has an impact on the sound . Anybody aware of this kind of practices?
If you were in my situation (listening to classical music and jazz in a rather small room and more interested in the subtelty of the music than in deep bass or high power handling)what would you ask Bill to concentrate on for optimal restoration ? GM,Jeff,does it help to ask GPA to measure the specs of the restored speakers for optimal cabinets building and crossover design.
Hopefully if the cones look fine Bill won't replace them, Just remag them,you'll be happier if he doesn't, Original cones are much nicer for resale If it ever comes to that. Last I heard original cones were gone long ago. :( Not sure what you mean by filed down? Both of my horns have file marks in them, My guess is it was to remove casting lines in the plastic to smooth them out. There is a pair of E's on Ebay that somebody hacked the center of the horns out to make them kinda like a manta ray...bad Idea if you ask me. I hope that's not what your talking about. Good luck on them My guess is your gonna be crazy happy when you get them and hear them for the first time. :)
Re: Altec 604 E reconing options.
Hi Cradeldorf and thanks for your reply,
Actually i was on the point to try to send you a mail when i saw your post.Unfortunately,the pictures of the drivers show that the LF cones should be changed.I know it is a pity but i am affraid there is no other solution.Actually,i paid both drivers a little bit more than 400 USD so i cannot expect miracles .I guess the HF diaphrams may have to be changed as well.Bill will tell me.Regarding the horns,they have been shortened at the mouth level by 0.5 to 1 cm.I speculate that this was done because the previous users were front mounting the speakers and trying to make sure that the front of the mouth do not touch the protective grille.Apparently GPA have an original pair of cross sectionnal horns(the one used on the C,D,E,G...models).I guess after restoration,they should be fine.I will ask Bill to use the low handling power diaphragms,cones and the lightest available moving mass.
I was very interested in your comments regarding your 604 C.With crossover are you using,a stock 1600 X over or another one .What type and size of cabinets do you use?Since it is my first Altec project i am looking for guidance.Yours will be appreciated.Did you finally buy the beautifull 604 D,paper surround which was on sale on the site?
Re: Altec 604 E reconing options.
I'm sure Bill will do what's necessary to bring them back to new condition for you. I'm not sure that would effect the horn enough to make a difference but if they have some perfect ones that works out for you. I'm using GPA N-1600 crossovers. I have 12 ft cabs that I built myself. No I can't really afford to buy it but it sure is pretty. : /
