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These showed up locally in the middle of Nowhere, USA. Will report back tomarrow:
No idea on the Altec's, down the streeet;
"A pair of Altecs with very nice handmade cabinets. 15" full range woofers with 12 LB magnets and a medium sized horn with Altec drivers and crossovers. These are basically Voice of the Theatre speakers. $400 OBO I would be able to send pictures via email and I will answer any questions."
The Peavey's T300, 150 miles away for $300 I know and love.
Always worth a look man.... Go for it.
Peavey T-300? As in a couple of cheap 10's and some peizo's?
If the cabs have Altec HF and xovers you are pretty close to the asking value. Would be a great deal if the cabs are usable, can dump the cheaper woofs on FeePay.
The drivers are likely Symbiotiks but could have had the frams changed out. Pascalites would be a plus.
It's two seperate pairs of speakers; one pair of somekind of Altecs, and the other pair the Peavey T300. I just spoke with the guy and he built them with his father in the late '70s from Altec plans and he used them for home audio. He says they have smallish horns, so I don't know what that would be. I don't know if my wife will let me buy both pairs, but the Peaveys sound great in their own way. Here is a picture of mine which are the exact same.
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc.../2011/12/3.jpg
Thar be Altec here in the house. :) I now have the rear speakers for my surround system. Worthless Photo Bucket is taking forever to upload, crop, and resize, so, here is the first picture- more to come. I can't tell from the picture I took by cramming my camera into the port whether the bass speaker says 416-8H or 418-8H, I can't get a picture of the horn driver, and the crossover is an N501-8A. I have the horn attenuatied down to #1 and the EQ bass pegged at the top, the mids in the middle and the top down a couple of db. So far they are all I could have hoped for. Now, how do I tweek them up to modern standards? Edit; what would you call these things?
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc.../2011/12/4.jpg
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc.../2011/12/5.jpg
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc.../2011/12/6.jpg
I don't think I've ever seen a 416 with chrome domes...I thought only the guitar amp speakers had the chrome domes. nice find though. : )
Correct, those are 418.Quote:
Originally Posted by cradeldorf
That's "sort of" an A-8, but not really. Homemade speakers often vary from standard.
The home built Altecs would benefit greatly from a proper crossover.
If you love the Peavey's, it'd be wrong for any of us to talk them down. You like them, and that's what's most important. But, don't expect to find much love for 40 year old PA columns in an Altec community.
The horns are the $$ in those boxes. Good luck!
Internal volume is 8.07 cubic feet. Port is 33 square inches x .75" or 24.75 cubic inches.
They remind me of a 1221A stage monitor put into a regular box....... except the 1221A used the 417-8H (12" driver), and it's own special crossover.
Does anybody know the difference between the 418-8H II, 421-8H II and a 416-xx and why the 418/421 have a free air resonance of 35hz while the same looking 416's Fs is 24hz? (GM, Old Guy?) Surely it can’t just be the dust cap, and if so, I will just glue a paper dust cap over the aluminum one? If a heaver cone lowers the Fs, and I just start gluing on one gram dimes with rubber cement, (or magnets stuck together on each side of the cone) will it lower the free air resonance and help out the bottom end? I guess I have to have a call with Great Plains Audio on Monday.
Here is a picture of my EQ which is sounding pretty good, with amp bass tone cranked up also. I am forcing these things to play low although I am only sitting three feet away at the moment and I don’t have them cranked up since the little woman is in bed. (it's still not what you would call soft)
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc.../2011/12/7.jpg
Sorry Bowtie, but without having these Altecs and the Peavey's side by side for a A/B shootout, and each in a separate listening environment, those old, unsophisticated Peaveys can easily hold their own and so far, I prefer. They lack the Altecs unreal horns, but have a bass response altec can only dream of.
if i remember correctly the 418 has an fs of 56 hz. your horns are 32b's. if you hook a peavey to the left side and the altec to the right side of your amp, you will wonder why the peavey is so quiet. the 418 i have measures 104 dbs at one watt. if you play guitar those would be awsome
Thanks, Valhallax, I do own a beautiful custom built walnut Gibson clone I bought 35 years ago, but could never figure out how the hell to play. That damned thing is nothing like a piano or sax which I can play, so I guess the answer is NO.
And you are right, these things are efficient. I will admit that coaxing them to play low, they do sound mighty fine, they just aren't my A7's . :)
If these things live in my living room, they will have to be shoved into the corners. So, if I where to add a 45 degree wedge shaped addition onto the back of them, the total box volume will grow from 8 cu. ft to 11.0 cubic feet. Think this will help them? Right now, they are 5' each way from the corners.
I beleive the 421's are vented in the rear, while the 416 is vented in the front. I'm not sure about the 418. I don't have a 421 to look at, either.Quote:
Does anybody know the difference between the 418-8H II, 421-8H II and a 416-xx......
It'd be a much smaller list to list what's the same between them.Quote:
Does anybody know the difference between the 418-8H II, 421-8H II and a 416-xx and why the 418/421 have a free air resonance of 35hz while the same looking 416's Fs is 24hz?
418 is a sealed motor(unvented) which probably renders it's continuous power handling a bit less than claimed. 421 is similar to the 418, and early 421's probably shared many moving parts with late 418's. In contrast to the 416, they're musical instrument/sound reinforcement drivers. They're ruggedized, heavier cones, aluminum voice coil formers, heavier damper.................... these are the general qualities. There are nit picky little variations between specific models, not really worth mentioning unless you're hard pressed to discuss gap depth, voice coil winding length, Xmax, etc etc, there are much better versed fellas here to explain all that if you need to know.
The 416 is the only one of the three mentioned that is a true "woofer" with usable extension into the lowest octave(in an appropriate enclosure, not a VOT mid bass horn). It has a lighter moving assembly and more compliant suspension than the MI/PA drivers. This comes at the cost of power handling, and abides by audio law #1 "everything is a compromise".
FWIW, when the little woman is away and you want to crank things up a bit, you're quickly going to reach the excursion and/or input power limits of those 418's, and while you can probably overheat them until your house smells and the room begins to fill with smoke a few times, you'll only bottom the coil former in the gap, or extend it beyond the pole piece once.Quote:
I am forcing these things to play low although I am only sitting three feet away at the moment and I don?t have them cranked up since the little woman is in bed.
Of course in my own warped mind i'd consider their demise a good thing as those have the stepped alnico motor of the most coveted of 416's the "8B" version, and i'd promptly have them re-coned as such, heck i'd even paint the frames the correct color for the 416 as well.
Just my .02 of course.........................
Thanks BowTie. I turn down the bass at louder volumes. I will enjoy these as is for the time being, and after I get the A7s running again, work on these. I need to get some deoxit and clean up the potentiometers on the crossovers, one isn't doing anything except making scratching noises.
You're on the right path, it should actually be an L-pad in the N501 though, most of the time they will clean up pretty good. But, every once in a while you'll find that the resistive winding and/or the wiper has become pitted and unreliable.Quote:
I need to get some deoxit and clean up the potentiometers on the crossovers, one isn't doing anything except making scratching noises.
To expand on something i mentioned early in the thread, the N501's are really mis-applied here with the 32B horns. 500 hz is too low an XO for them IMO. Altec only ran them as low as 800 in the A8 system, 1500hz in their studio monitor(9849) application, and 1700hz in their hifi(model 15) application.
I agree with OG that the drivers are likely symbiotik loaded, i don't think aluminum phragms would still be working.
I'd wager that raising the XO point and installing aluminum phragms would probably render them a very different speaker, in a good way for hifi apps.
Again, just my .02...........................
Thanks again Bowtie, I will admit that at first listen, I was disappointed, but after several hours of tweeking on the EQ and learning what these things want, I am warming up to them nicely, even with their flaws. :) I am trying to clean up my living room and make room for them in the corners, Wifey is chomping at the bit to get her Christmas decorating going.
That small horn likes 1200 better than 800 IMHO for xover.
Pretty much all that has been said on the differences, higher Fs drives generally have lighter voice coils assemblies. The paper dome trick will cover the overtones from the dome and drop the Fs. I have never tried removing the aluminum and venting VIA the 416 dome, would like to do it under controlled conditions, but as surviving 418's with original cones get less common seems hardly worth it. I just look for blown ones and recone as 416.
Ok, I have been alone with these things for a couple of hours placed in the corners of my 14'x36' room, and have been listening to my favorites; Weather Report, Return to Forever, and Mahavishu Orchistra at maybe 40 watts, have them dialed in and loving it. I have the EQ set flat except 25Hz and 40Hz are at +12 db and no tone from the amp. I can feel the bass inside me which doesn't sound muddy in the least. :) Maybe they just needed to warm up? Best $400 I have spent in a long time. :):)
Corner placement can do wonders for low end reinforcement. When you mentioned that you were going to push them back into the corners i knew there was no point in mentioning this because you were going to find out first hand soon enough.:D
Something that OG's post reminded me of, and i would emphasize is that exact 418/421 cones and other rebuild parts are NLA. Yours look to be in quite excellent shape, beauties in fact and to parrot OG, the quantity surviving in that condition is limited and shrinking slowly. Take care of em, maybe rotate em 90-180 degrees once a year or so to prevent any sagging of cone or suspension. Sometimes i forget that those shiny Altec aluminum dust domes that were once very common will someday be pretty much extinct.
Just for clarification, when i mentioned reconing them in a previous post i was only referring to in the event they were damaged from over excursion or over powering. I don't want you fellas thinking i'd tear perfectly good working and looking cones out for the sake of replacing them with something else.
Bowtie, thanks a million. Too bad the young builder and his dad didn't have better advice from the local stereo shop (This is North Dakota) when they ordered their components. But, they sound great for what they are and I and my kids will keep them for a long time. It has been great over the last 6 months since I discovered your guy's site to finally learn what the great name of Altec Lancing is really all about and am glad to have been a part of the Heritage for at least 3 decades. By the way, what is your 427ss bolted up to and any time you want to show off, I and my Volvo are ready. :)
My daughter is just home from collage and cranking her tunes on my new A8's; Frankenstien Musical, Phantom of the Opera, Mulan Rouge... It sounds killer. :)
It's late and I can't remember, but did i mention that I hooked up a piezo super tweeter up that was just sitting there and boy, it adds every thing these things where missing.
I also caught my wife, laying on the couch, listening to Youtube Styx, tapping her foot to the tunes. ;):)
After deep reflections, it would take 4 Peavey t300's running at 4 ohms to equal two of these Altec A8 clones at 8 ohms. :)
I just downloaded WinISD pro and don't have a clue how to use it yet, but here are some plots of the 418-8H in it's 8 cu. ft. box.
With the current 11"x3"x.75" or 33 sq. in. port.
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2011/12/16.jpg
With 12x3x.75 or 36 sq. in. port.
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2011/12/17.jpg
With 11x3 port and EQ. This looks terrible and I might not have the data input correctly, but this is how I have my graphic EQ set and I like the way it sounds at something like 33% on the volume knob on a 100 wpc amp. But... then again, I'm a bass junkie. :)
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2011/12/18.jpg
So, I have been googling "Adding weight to lower Fs on a woofer". I can find no definitive answer, but did read that the woofer really can't play any lower than Fs since above Fs, the port is in faze with the woofer, and at Fs, the speaker stops moving and all of the energy is vibrating in the port, and below Fs, the port is out of faze with the speaker and any low frequencies are canceled out. (?) I don’t understand how the port can be reproducing in faze and out of faze frequencies at the same time, but I don‘t know much. :)
So, back to lowering the Fs of the 418-8H by adding weight, I know that the differences between the 418-8H and 416-8B are many, but how are they the same? Same frame, surround, cone, motor? That only leaves the voice coil and dust cap?
I can live just fine with this sound with out reconing these things, but am just curious. I just want my cake and eat it too, even though there is no such thing as a free lunch. :)
I need to build an adapter plate and mount my one good 416-8A in one of these and see what the difference is.
(Calling GM?)
PS; I have a low cut button on my EQ, and have no idea how it works, but I know I don't like the sound of it.
How does port sizing work? I don't want to cut the port out larger to experiment, If I build a bunch of .125"wood plates with 11x3 holes and start stacking them will it increase the port size eventually equaling a 12x3? Is port volume in any way relevant?
I added 6 of those brick paving stones to my cabs, they hit hard now. The low cut button cuts out the lowest frequencys. I stopped using mine too.... when I had one.Quote:
Originally Posted by VolvoHeretic
The longer the vent,the lower the tuning I think.When GM was helping me with my custom cabs we came to a length of 4" with a 6" diameter PVC pipe for a 25 Hz tuning.Quote:
Originally Posted by VolvoHeretic
Playing with WinIST Pro, to equal the graph of a 3x12x.75 inch port, the 2x11 would have to be 9/16" or .5624" thick, which seem counterintuitive, but I am not ready to drag out the jig saw just yet.
I have not opened up the back yet because I am too busy enjoying these things to go to the trouble of trying to take out the 32 slotted screws and replace them with Philips head screws. I can find no information on the 32B horns which I assume have 802 drivers. It has been mentioned that they probably have symbiotic diaphragms, and frankly, they sound pretty good, but I do have a Piezo super tweeter helping them along...
You rang? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by VolvoHeretic
A good article with animations on port action: Essay
As much as me and Ron E have posted the theory/math and his simplified math routine over the last 15 yrs or so, I?m surprised you didn?t find it Googling.
Since I currently can?t access my ?library?, I Googled to get Biro?s ?long hand? explanation for the math savvy folks and Ron E?s ?mass loading for dummies? for the rest of us: Biro Technology
how to lower the Fs of a driver - diyAudio
mr = (Fs/Fs')^2
Qes' = Qes*mr^0.5
Qms' = Qms*mr^0.5
then: Qts' = Qes'*Qms'/(Qes'+Qms')
where:
mr = mass ratio
Fs' = new, lower Fs
New, lower effective efficiency:
n0? = ~ [9.6352*10^-10*Fs?^3*Vas]/Qes?
SPLeff? = ~ 112.018+10*log10[n0?]
GM
Correct, the vent area [Av] sets the minimum [highest tuning] Fb for a given box volume [Vb] and the longer the vent, the lower its tuning, ergo making it longer won’t make it any bigger [higher power handling].Quote:
Originally Posted by Altec Best
GM
Thanks GM, evidently my google search engine sucks. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by GM
Those pendulum diagrams sure explain the relationship between the woofer and the port very well and explain why there is nothing going on below Fb and why no matter how I manipulated the box volume, port area or depth, starting with tiny changes and increasing to drastic ones, I could change the slope and amount of low frequency roll off, but every time, it always intersected F3 at 44 Hz. (And never for the better.) :)
Can those 'adding weight' equations be solved for Fs? I can sic them on my ‘much smarter than I’ sons, the engineer, or the physicist.
WinIST pro has a box for adding weight to the cone, but no matter what I input, it makes no difference, but I could be doing it all wrong. I also need to input the parameters for a 416-8B and see what they look like compared to the 418-8H and 421-8H.
Cheers
You?re welcome!
It?s a long story, but no, not really, you just needed to go through one or pages of Google finds to locate them plus it helps to know what to look for. ;) They were spit out first for me because Google ?remembers? everything ?you? have searched/browsed for in the past.
It?s starting to get spooky, I mean I do a search and usually within the day and sometimes the hour, my yahoo mail, on-line TV guide, etc. ads reflect it plus pertinent new recommendations, so the info is apparently being shared universally. Haven?t/won?t try it, but have to wonder what ads would pop up if I browsed for porn????
Yeah, I love those animations; you wouldn?t believe how many folks I?ve alone ?educated? since the article was originally posted.
Correct, for a given cab net Vb, Fb [alignment], all you?re doing is trading HF efficiency for a lower F3 until you?ve reached the alignment?s limit, so to get the full benefit of mass loading requires recalculating the requisite alignment using the new Fs, Qts, which normally will be a larger cab tuned lower.
This is a ?piece o? cake? using WinISD Pro since you can highlight the ?volume?, ?tuning? inputs and use the keyboard?s arrows to scroll up, down the values, changing the various plots in real time to find the desired response. Ditto with most of the other design variable inputs.
Yes, rearranging the formulas is beyond trivial for your sons, but I have to resort to an on-line computer program to do it for me: http://www.quickmath.com/webMathematica3/quickmath/equations/solve/basic.jsp#v1=%28x%2Fy%29^2%3Dz&v2=y
mr = (Fs/Fs')^2 must be converted to this: z = (x/y)^2
then:
solving for Fs? [y] = Fs*(1/mr)^0.5
solving for Fs [x] = Fs?*mr^0.5
Regardless, why would you want to? I mean Fs you have to ?know? to find out what amount of added mass is required to achieve your new Fs, Qts, eff..
Anyway, since Qts dominates speaker alignment design, its increase along with decreasing power handling with decreasing frequency is what you want to watch.
GM
GM, it has taken days for what you have said to sink in. Sorry, I'm dense. I guess I want to solve for added weight with an arbitrary Fb? …And hope that I don't overload with watts, but maybe the good thing is these woofers are rated up to 150 wpc? Sorry for the ignorance, but I‘m and ignoramus, I am just now, after 35 years, trying to figure out this audio stuff. I will see my son, the engineer tomorrow and sick these formulas on him, and see if he was paying attention in Calculus class.
Ok, I don't have a clue how to run a stereo, so at the end of playing my reference CD; Return to forever; "Romantic Warrior", I disconnected the EQ and ran it flat at about .625 volume of 100 wpc. Wow, other than being a little top bass heavy, they were crisp, loud and nice. :)
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2012/01/17.jpg