Altecs & tube amps......

I'll start by saying that I have zero experience with tube amplifiers.....I'm really not even aware of makes & model numbers, and have done no real research as of yet. I'm currently running my Altecs on a Sansui G-9000 receiver and have no complaints about it. The sound is fabulous........and the receivers amp section has power to spare, and while the big solid-state Sansui is a keeper-for-life.....I do want to experience something different one day for the sake of variety.

A while back I was talking to a local gentleman that powered his system with a Threshold amplifier. I cannot exactly remember the model......I THINK it was the Stasis 500S. Now, my questions here are not spurred on by THAT.....but what he said to me when I mentioned the speakers I'm running are Altec 19:

"Oh....you REALLY need to run speakers like those on tubes......I'm tellin' ya....."

Interesting, because I've heard that a zillion times over the years and still have not pursued it. I suppose I could have just ask this guy the questions I had.....but did not. I just nodded my head in agreement and moved on.
So..... Here is what I'm wondering:




Can a tube amp be used with a solid-state pre-amp?
Can a nice vintage tube amp be had for less than...say $700.00?
Are ALL tube amps low power as compared to solid state?
(If so, how can a 15 wpc tube amp possibly run better with my Altecs than my 160 wpc Sansui?...in other words...not clip if driven loudly?)
Are replacement vacuum tubes readily available for vintage amps?
Suggest some good makes........vintage vs. moderen?


I'd be happy to hear some thought & opinions......not ready to shop just yet....just want to know what fellow Altec users think, and would I really have a massive improvement in sound over my wondeful solid-state G-9000?

Just what is it about tubes anyway?


Much appreciated,
Russ

So..... Here is what I'm wondering:

Can a tube amp be used with a solid-state pre-amp?
Yes

Can a nice vintage tube amp be had for less than...say $700.00?
(???)

Are ALL tube amps low power as compared to solid state?
No...depending on your budget, as the high powered models are generally very expensive.

(If so, how can a 15 wpc tube amp possibly run better with my Altecs than my 160 wpc Sansui?...in other words...not clip if driven loudly?)
You must remember that your 19's are 99db efficient & are probably running on only a few watts anyway. That said, if you were to really crank them up then, yes, you may run out of steam & clip the amp. (Not good for the speakers)

Are replacement vacuum tubes readily available for vintage amps?
Yes, if you take some time to look around.

Suggest some good makes........vintage vs. moderen?
Conrad Johnson, Acoustic Research.


I'd be happy to hear some thought & opinions......not ready to shop just yet....just want to know what fellow Altec users think, and would I really have a massive improvement in sound over my wondeful solid-state G-9000?
With respect, the equipment we have always sounds the best, until we hear something better. The difference between SS & valve sound is very personal.....you may like it , you may not.

Just what is it about tubes anyway?
There will be all sorts of descriptions concerning "tube sound". On the positive side - Lifelike, smooth, midrange to die for. And on the negative - soft bottom end, soft top end. Remember that manufacturers these days can produce tube like sound from a SS amp & vice versa. My suggestion would be to try a few out & get a feel for the different flavours or listen to a few other systems to help train your ears to hear the differences.

It's all a steep learning curve! I'm on my umpteenth system now & am only just beginning to realise what I need to satisfy my listening needs!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Russnohio

Can a tube amp be used with a solid-state pre-amp?
Can a nice vintage tube amp be had for less than...say $700.00?
Are ALL tube amps low power as compared to solid state?
(If so, how can a 15 wpc tube amp possibly run better with my Altecs than my 160 wpc Sansui?...in other words...not clip if driven loudly?)
Are replacement vacuum tubes readily available for vintage amps?
Suggest some good makes........vintage vs. moderen?

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The answers to your technical questions are easy...

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Generally but your Altecs do not need a lot of power. I really doubt you push them past 10 watts if that.
4. Yes. Different tubes will produce different results also.
5. McIntosh comes to mind but there are plenty of others.

The rest of your question opens up to endless discussion. Being a major Sansui fan and someone who has tried a lot of different amps over the years, I would bet you probably would not like the tube amp over your Sansui. But thats up to you to decide.

I would suggest trying one before you spend your money. Some dealers will loan you one for a test drive or find someone who has one and see if they might not give you an audition.

That is a great system you have there. Enjoy it!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Russnohio

(If so, how can a 15 wpc tube amp possibly run better with my Altecs than my 160 wpc Sansui?...in other words...not clip if driven loudly?)

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Tube and SS amps clip quite differently.

SS amps tend to accent "odd order" harmonics. Tube amps tend to accent "even order". Without getting any more techie, even order harmonics sound less dissonant.

Guitar amps are dominated by tubes, because guitar players love to drive them into distortion to get the added overtones.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Russnohio

I'll start by saying that I have zero experience with tube amplifiers.....I'm really not even aware of makes & model numbers, and have done no real research as of yet. I'm currently running my Altecs on a Sansui G-9000 receiver and have no complaints about it. The sound is fabulous........and the receivers amp section has power to spare, and while the big solid-state Sansui is a keeper-for-life.....I do want to experience something different one day for the sake of variety.

A while back I was talking to a local gentleman that powered his system with a Threshold amplifier. I cannot exactly remember the model......I THINK it was the Stasis 500S. Now, my questions here are not spurred on by THAT.....but what he said to me when I mentioned the speakers I'm running are Altec 19:

"Oh....you REALLY need to run speakers like those on tubes......I'm tellin' ya....."

Interesting, because I've heard that a zillion times over the years and still have not pursued it. I suppose I could have just ask this guy the questions I had.....but did not. I just nodded my head in agreement and moved on.
So..... Here is what I'm wondering:





Much appreciated,
Russ

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Can a tube amp be used with a solid-state pre-amp?
Of course.

Can a nice vintage tube amp be had for less than...say $700.00?
Yes, easily.

Are ALL tube amps low power as compared to solid state?
Generally. the more watts, the more dollars for tube amps.

(If so, how can a 15 wpc tube amp possibly run better with my Altecs than my 160 wpc Sansui?...in other words...not clip if driven loudly?)
15w would be the minimum I'd consider if you like to rock. Especially on materail with a lot of low end. 35w is just dandy!

Are replacement vacuum tubes readily available for vintage amps?
Pretty much. Either new or good vintage stuff.

Suggest some good makes........vintage vs. moderen?
I prefer good vintage. Heathkit made some really good ones. W1, W2, W5, W6, Harmon Kardon Citation I or II, Fisher integrateds, Scott integrated. Anything newer or new is going to cost a lot.


I'd be happy to hear some thought & opinions......not ready to shop just yet....just want to know what fellow Altec users think, and would I really have a massive improvement in sound over my wondeful solid-state G-9000?

Just what is it about tubes anyway?

Tube amps don't hard clip. They soft clip. So there is more aparrent useable power. And when they clip, you won't damage the speakers.

Where are you located?

I thank you all for your relies.

Good to know tube/solid-state can be used together. So then since my G-9000 has pre-amp/power amp connected/seperated switching and power amp/pre amp in/0ut jacks.........I could simply hook a tube amp of my choosing to the G-9000's "pre-amp IN/out" jacks, yes?

FWIW....the selector switch has notations for: 1 direct coupled...
2 capacitor coupled...

I've read that old Altec systems and loudspeakers in the 1940's & 1950's ........much older than my 1978 vintage model 19's.......were designed specifically with tube amplification in mind since solid state was still in the future.

Would it be fair to assume then that Altec engineers developing the model 19 system figured most users would power the speakers with modern era (for 1978) solid state amps? Not that it matters, but my G-9000 also happens to be 1978 vintage BTW.

Again, thanks very much guys!

Russ

Ron, I'm in Westlake Ohio.

Thanks for your info.....


Russ

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Russnohio

I could simply hook a tube amp of my choosing to the G-9000's "pre-amp IN/out" jacks, yes?

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Absolutely.

Let me just say what I know, My 16 watt Marantz ss receiver would damn near jump my house off it's foundation powering my 604's.

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Originally Posted by cradeldorf

let me just say what i know, my 16 watt marantz ss receiver would damn near jump my house off it's foundation powering my 604's.

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Amen...... Its NOT about watts with your Altecs Russ, its about the quality of the first few. :wink2:

Over on diyAudio I posted a test that will allow you to figure out how much power you actually need. It's pretty simple if you have a volt meter with a 20V AC scale.
FWIW, I use about 1/8th watt average when playing loud. At the very loudest volumes I ever use I got 4.5W peak. That's it. YMMV

I can post the test here along with instructions, if anyone is interested. It's easy to do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Panomaniac

Over on diyAudio I posted a test that will allow you to figure out how much power you actually need. It's pretty simple if you have a volt meter with a 20V AC scale.
FWIW, I use about 1/8th watt average when playing loud. At the very loudest volumes I ever use I got 4.5W peak. That's it. YMMV

I can post the test here along with instructions, if anyone is interested. It's easy to do.

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PLEASE post that Pano!! I would be very interested in seeing that.

If there is one thing I ever had a hard time explaining to people, its how few watts they actually need with their VOTT's.

One more thing Pano...

I just checked all my VOMS including a Simpson 260 and none have a 20v scale.

The 260 has:

2.5
10
50
500

I dont recall ever seeing one with a 20v scale.

Note to Russ:

You can see how many watts you are using.
Your G-9000 has power meters. Says WATTS (8Ω) PEAK

You want to read the top scale. It starts at 0 and then .1 (one tenth of a watt), then 1 watt, then 10 watts and goes on.

Anything over 3 watts with those 19's should be ABUSIVE. :biggrin2:

OK Nipper, I'll start a thread with the test and the test tone.
Your 10V AC scale will be fine. Most modern DVMs do a 20V AC scale. It's just that the cheaper ones usually don't have a low voltage scale for AC. As the voltage will be low, the low scale is needed for accuracy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Panomaniac

OK Nipper, I'll start a thread with the test and the test tone.
Your 10V AC scale will be fine. Most modern DVMs do a 20V AC scale. It's just that the cheaper ones usually don't have a low voltage scale for AC. As the voltage will be low, the low scale is needed for accuracy.

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"Most modern DVM's"....?!?! Was that a dig? I LIKE MY 260!!!

Then I was thinking "DVM"???.... Hmmmmmmmmm. Doctor of Veterinary Medicine? Nah.
I had to look that up.

In my days we called em VOM's.

OMG!!!!... I'm a dinosaur. :redface2:
Good grief... I'm changing my name to Barney since Old Guy is taken.

Sheesh, me and my old speakers and meters. Maybe I'm the one who needs a tube amp. :biggrin2:

I have a vacuum tube VOM meter on the shelf. It's nice too look at but I prefer my DVMs, some of which are 20 years old, or more. Nothing wrong with the 260, as long as it works!

So that explains why my 150 wpc Crown DC300A never got even luke warm, even at ear shattering volume with my A7's?

Probably does. If you need to light up a stadium with your A7s, then your Crown would be getting a work out.

Thanks, Panomaniac, When I found my A7's back in '76, down the street from my house, they probably had been sitting at that shop for at least 5-6 years. I bought them for about the price of a pair of JBL 100's . Thank God, when I mentioned it to people that new, they steered this naive stupid kid to equipment that rocked! I have been a graced non-believing man.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nipper

Note to Russ:

You can see how many watts you are using.
Your G-9000 has power meters. Says WATTS (8Ω) PEAK

You want to read the top scale. It starts at 0 and then .1 (one tenth of a watt), then 1 watt, then 10 watts and goes on.

Anything over 3 watts with those 19's should be ABUSIVE. :biggrin2:

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I will admit that when the needles are wavering towards the "10" mark on the meters the sound is insanely loud, especially in my small 15'X22' living room. It is extremely rare though, that I play them that loud.......sometimes can't resist tho'!!

I'd always Knew I'd never actually USE the full 160 wpc output of the reciever in my normal listening, but all that extra power (+ the finely made Altec drivers) was the one thing that kept the sound quality of my music so crystal-clear and life-like during powerful........transients I think they're called?......on cymbal crashes & bass drum hits, when the needles are'nt even touching the "ten" mark on the meters.

I guess what I'm getting at is......that if I were running a 30 wpc amp/reciver and the meter needles were wavering toward the "ten" mark......the sound would be just as loud......but not as clean and undistorted......when talking here about 30 wpc vs. 160 wpc .....I'm of course meaning with solid-state amplification.

So.....in using tube amplification....power "headroom" is not as much an issue as it is with solid-state?


Thanks,
Russ

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So.....in using tube amplification....power "headroom" is not as much an issue as it is with solid-state?

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It's certainly an issue for me Russ.

Perhaps the bigger issue(for me) is the rolled off frequency response at both ends of the spectrum that is characteristic of 98% of all tube amps, and a surprising number of SS amps.

I spent over a decade and thousands of greenbacks, on top of various mods, upgrades, and circuit changes chasing my tail thru the pursuit of the tube fantasy. My conclusion ultimately is that i have no interest in trying to find the optimal match between 1 piece of gear with shortcomings that mask or compliment the shortcomings of another.

My advice, audition all the tube amplifiers you possibly can, then try a Pass F5 in their place and decide which you want to live with over the long haul.

I'll spend as many words trying to sell you on the virtues of tube amplification as i would on 10 thousand dollar speaker cables.

But, by all means hear for yourself as YMMV.:D

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Originally Posted by bowtie427ss

I'll spend as many words trying to sell you on the virtues of tube amplification as i would on 10 thousand dollar speaker cables. :D

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Bowtie, you are brutally honest and eloquent. You just might be the best!

I have heard and read the comment "horns love tubes" a million times from the audio parrots, and most never owned a set.

The best sounding amps I ever heard with mine were all SS. Others are entitled to their opinions.

Dont fall for it Russ. You have an incredible setup I wouldn't hesitate to put up against most anything if all is working properly. It never hurts to try other equipment and its fun, but never let anyone influence you. Try it yourself and you will know when its just right.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bowtie427ss

It's certainly an issue for me Russ.

Perhaps the bigger issue(for me) is the rolled off frequency response at both ends of the spectrum that is characteristic of 98% of all tube amps, and a surprising number of SS amps.

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What is your definition of rolled off?
Db vs. Freq. at 20 and 20Khz

Ron

I don't claim to be an expert Ron, Nipper gives me too much credit.

In basis, i subscribe to the Stu Hegeman school of thought that basically suggests that for an amplifier to be truly flat from 20 to 20k, the actual measured bandwidth will need to be much wider. This is evidenced in his designs for the Citation II and Citation V which both use very high quality output iron giving those amplifiers claimed response bandwidth of something like 5hz to 60khz. We'll save his use of what some feel is an excessive amount of feedback to accomplish this for a different discussion.

Suffice to say that of the many tube amplifiers i've owned and lived with, the Citations when fully and properly restored were my favorites.

So, i guess to answer your question, IMO, an amplifier with a rolled off response is one with a MEASURED frequency response bandwidth that varies more than -1 db within the 20-20k range.

I would also add FWIW, that just because an amplifier(tube or ss) has a rolled off response, doesn't necessarily mean it will sound bad. I had a home brew SET using TV sweep tubes that i was rather fond of running on my 9849's. Since i was driving speakers with limited LFE, and amplifier with limited LFE was of no consequence.

Ironically, you can probably look forward to a revised and improved version of that amplifier to become available to the public in limited quantities.

Now, i must return to the Krell powered Westlakes for an extended Saturday night session.

We are on the same wavelength. Pun intended.
My home brew PP 300B amps use no feedback and have Citation II OPT's and meet the less than 1dB requirement at the extreemes. They sound quite nice and not at all rolled off.
On the other hand, I haven't had a dead flat SS amp in my system ever.
So this is all to my old ears.

Ron

Here is promised thread about how to measure how much power you need:
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/f700...-use-test.html

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bowtie427ss

It's certainly an issue for me Russ.

Perhaps the bigger issue(for me) is the rolled off frequency response at both ends of the spectrum that is characteristic of 98% of all tube amps, and a surprising number of SS amps.

I spent over a decade and thousands of greenbacks, on top of various mods, upgrades, and circuit changes chasing my tail thru the pursuit of the tube fantasy. My conclusion ultimately is that i have no interest in trying to find the optimal match between 1 piece of gear with shortcomings that mask or compliment the shortcomings of another.

My advice, audition all the tube amplifiers you possibly can, then try a Pass F5 in their place and decide which you want to live with over the long haul.

I'll spend as many words trying to sell you on the virtues of tube amplification as i would on 10 thousand dollar speaker cables.

But, by all means hear for yourself as YMMV.:D

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Bowtie What preamp do you use in your set up? Also how do you feel about clones of this Pass unit?