Factory option or DIY?
Altec Lansing 421-8H II 16" LF Woofer Speaker 8ohm 150W | eBay
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Factory option or DIY?
Altec Lansing 421-8H II 16" LF Woofer Speaker 8ohm 150W | eBay
I think the seller is saying he cut them......
"The sides were cut to enable these 16" frames to fit side by side in vintage Altec cabs that were designed for 15" frames. This is a very cost effective way to replace 515B LFs in older 210 Cabinets."
Personally, I wouldn't replace 515's with 421's--I'd get the 515's re-coned by GPA before I'd do that. He says it's cost effective, but I would call re-coning the 515's the cost effective solution--not replacing them with 421's....
He has a number of cut 16" frames/drivers. IMHO way over priced for an effectively weakened (read destroyed) unit.
I have no 515's. The originals just sold for a few grand a pair. I'll do a lot of cutting before i drop 6 grand on 4 woofers. I will actually in fact be loading my 210's with JBL product while i continue to research what will be the best long term woofer solution for me. Truncating(cutting) 421's is one possibility for me as their performance in a big horn isn't that far off from 515's. The only certainty is that it won't be original 515's.Quote:
Personally, I wouldn't replace 515's with 421's--I'd get the 515's re-coned by GPA before I'd do that. He says it's cost effective, but I would call re-coning the 515's the cost effective solution--not replacing them with 421's....
You can get brand new 515's from GPA depending on model for $300-$500 a piece.They are pretty much manufactured to Altec specs.
It's a size issue AB.Quote:
You can get brand new 515's from GPA depending on model for $300-$500 a piece.They are pretty much manufactured to Altec specs.
The old style 210's have less than 1/4" driver clearance from the outside walls and each other with early split rim style frames.
One option that i have not abandoned yet is to collect 4 new old style(non split rims) 15 inch Altec frames and have GPA build me a quad of alnico 515B's on those frames.
Another option is to just cut the frames on a set of new ones, but i'm not sure the idea is all that appealing to me beyond the idea stage. Cutting a 30-40 year old speaker that i'm into for under a C note is one thing, hacking on a brand new GPA/Altec is quite another.
I think probably collecting some dead 418's, 421's and 423's to scavenge their frames and have GPA build 515B's on them will be the best of all worlds.
Your right. Forgot about the cabs.Was just thinking about those poor frames.
I don't think they look too bad. It looks like they were cut straight with a saw that's meant to cut aluminum. I don't think the structural integrity would be compromised enough to worry about either, given the way they're mounted to the cabinet. I've seen them cut worse before in auctions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altec Best
I admit, it makes me a little upset when I take a look at one of my McCauley's that have had the mounting holes hogged out........ I still don't know why that was done.
If you don't have blown 515's to re-cone then this is a great "cost effective" solution that doesn't involve any cutting and you get the sound quality of 515's which beat out 421's (for many applications) IMHO......Quote:
Originally Posted by bowtie427ss
As heathen like as it sounds, a sharp 60 or 80 tooth blade on a table saw would make those cuts and leave a very clean finish.Quote:
I don't think they look too bad. It looks like they were cut straight with a saw that's meant to cut aluminum. I don't think the structural integrity would be compromised enough to worry about either, given the way they're mounted to the cabinet. I've seen them cut worse before in auctions.
In case you're wondering, i'd choose 2 opposing bolt holes(between the spokes, keep the holes at the ends of the spokes for mounting) for the centerline of the woofer. Then, i'd determine my desired overall width from truncation to truncation and draw a line on the table of my saw exactly half that distance from the inside of the blade and parallel to it. I'd use that line to locate my woofers, just center the bolt holes used to form a centerline over the line on the table at a point where the bolt hole in the portion you're going to cut off is about centered over the saw shaft. I'd clamp the woofer in place, start the saw, and raise the blade up far enough to complete the cut. Drain, rinse, and repeat as necessary.
.......... and it overcomes that whole fitment thing.Quote:
If you don't have blown 515's to re-cone then this is a great "cost effective" solution that doesn't involve any cutting and you get the sound quality of 515's which beat out 421's (for many applications) IMHO......
Plus, i'm a bass freak. I'll gladly compromise a bit of the original 515's midrange magic for the solid extension of the 515B's.
Then opt for the 515E.
GM
I think I'd cut the cabs before I'd cut the speakers. Just my .02
I think they look terrible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Audio_by_Goodwill
Whenever you cut into a frame on anything you are compromising it's integrity. Uncut frames could easily be bent from shipping,in proper torquing of the bolts to the baffle,etc.... Let alone cut ones.Quote:
I don't think the structural integrity would be compromised enough to worry about either, given the way they're mounted to the cabinet.
I personally would rather look for 15" frames and recone. YMMV One mans garbage is another mans treasure so it goes :)
In the 210 horn will not the 515B give the best of both worlds in terms of midrange and LF extension?Quote:
Originally Posted by GM
There were at least 2 versions of 515E, finding 4 that match would be a challenge, and that takes us back to truncating frames which i have no problem doing to the low interest drivers like flat mag 515E. But the 515E with the cast backplate seems to hold a much higher resale value, and i'd hate to destroy that value by chopping them up.
The other option would be "if" GPA can build them(515E) up, which i have doubts about as well. I expect new GPA product would be 515G. Beyond that, market value on 515E's would make building new ones a very poor investment from a cost/value perspective.
OTOH, if i were to commission GPA to build 4 new alnico 515B on old style 15 inch frames, i think their value in the "inter-market" will always equal if not exceed the initial cost.
See how tempting it is to go with a non-Altec woofer in this application?
This is truly the biggest caveat, and it kills their value among the majority of the potential market. It makes a lot of people cringe. I can't really blame them as they KNOW it's not supposed to look like that.Quote:
I think they look terrible.
While every word is true here, the modification in question is almost inconsequential. The weakest point on a new style 16 inch frame is where the motor bolts to it, and this is where the vast majority of frame damage/failure occurs. Just ask the board member who found most of his 421 motors laying in the bottom of his 817 cabinets after having them trucked home from an event.:(Quote:
Whenever you cut into a frame on anything you are compromising it's integrity. Uncut frames could easily be bent from shipping,in proper torquing of the bolts to the baffle,etc.... Let alone cut ones.
I think cutting an Altec speaker frame is an unthinkable act, please don't. Many moons ago when confronted with the same situation,vertical slots were cut on each side of the enclosure from the speaker mounting board to the back 1.5" wide and 9" height. that way I was successful in getting the new 16" frames to fit, from memory the mounting ctrs were the same & inside frame to frame was no problem. you then have to make appropriate caps to cover those openings. I suggest making two 16" cardboard templates with mounting holes and check out, it was about 25 yrs ago for me.
OK but my point is why add another weak point to the basket ? Also you are essentially killing any chance to ever sell them again if you choose to do so.I doubt he will ever sell those 421's due to this fact.And if he does,he won't get anything near their true value IMHO.Quote:
Originally Posted by bowtie427ss
When I see any kind of Altec "Destruction" it just doesn't sit well with me... :eek2:
The more drivers that are destroyed the more rare and expensive these cherished Altec's will become.
I would NEVER cut into a frame to apply a speaker to a particular cabinet.I would be more apt to install a correct fitting driver dimensionally ! But that's just me. YMMV :wink2:
BTW - If you want to cut into a JBL frame by all means ! :tongue2:
Quote:
Originally Posted by kinomat
:Thumbs up: :Clap:
If the suggestion is done and proves to be a 2012 success. AB-- I would like having a drink with you, I enjoy red wine Calif. & Italy
;)Quote:
BTW - If you want to cut into a JBL frame by all means !
The ironic thing here is that JBL has applied the engineering foresight to truncate the frames of several of their drivers that are/were used for tandem mounting and linear arrays for what, a half century now? I refer specifically to the classic and long produced Linear Efficiency series LE-8, LE-10, LE-14, 2105, 2115, etc., as well as some of their current production. Check out the mid drivers in the full size Vertec arrays, the frames are truncated to the extent that they allow those drivers to be mounted so close that the surrounds touch each other on neighboring drivers.
The flip side of this, and you'll really like this part AB:D, truncated JBL frames are the ONLY frames i've ever seen damaged in shipping. There's no question that they're more fragile. But, in certain designs it is a necessary compromise to overcome edge diffraction and lobing/comb filtering.
Of course their standard round 15 inch frames will direct bolt in place of 15 inch Altec frames, which makes them potential candidates when all else fails. If they were good enough for Woodstock, they'll be good enough for me.:D
I can truly appreciate the sentiments fellas, but lets remember one thing here. There are far more remaining drivers than unaltered original cabinets. The LAST thing i'm going to do any cutting on are the cabinets, and i'm not any more likely to cut driver frames for these either. They're early, serial numbered, and their paint and decals are good enough that they should be preserved without hacking them. There are plenty of driver options that will fit without any modifications. Hopefully, i'll be able to come up with a reasonable Altec solution like building new drivers on old frames.
I would like that ! I'm planing on a 2-3 week trip to Italy very soon.If not this summer than next.The last time I was in Calif.Couple summers ago.I was in San Fran.But missed the trip to Napa Valley that won't happen next time....Quote:
Originally Posted by kinomat
Bowtie do you have any 416 A's, 803's laying around for this app ? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by bowtie427ss
I'm like you, I love lots of Bass.
Yes, but you said you'd trade some HF for LF and since the E optimally requires a larger cab it de facto has more bass potential in-room.Quote:
Originally Posted by bowtie427ss
I wasn't aware there were two versions of the E. My observations are based on the original only.
Considering GPA has a number of 416, 515 options, I see no obvious reason why they can't build you some E or maybe even 411 bottom end with original 515 top end. Now the latter would truly be the best Altec woofer of all assuming the hit in efficiency is acceptable.
Yes, I've been researching AE, 18Sound and a few others lately for original 515-like performance.
GM
Looking at the pictures again, I see they cut on a mounting hole rather than between them. I would say they cut in a bad place and thus weakened the frame more than I was originally was thinking. If they wouldn't have cut across that hole I don't think the there would be a strength issue, after all the 15" frames weren't that wide and we don't go around saying how weak they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altec Best
Also...... I wouldn't want to cut frames on perfectly good speakers. I might do it to some already trashed drivers and have GPA recone them, Though.
Is the die cast or the cast cut,I hope not. I know of a source in Toronto that has Altec515 and 416 15" frames. Do you need 4 of any model, I can make some calls???
Not the greatest solution but once you have made the mistake I guess you sell them and try and highlight the mistakes with enthusiastic optimism?
Go Canucks!
This is the version with cold rolled steel flat backplate: http://tubino.smugmug.com/Audio/Alte...30_mmdj9-L.jpgQuote:
I wasn't aware there were two versions of the E. My observations are based on the original only.
And this is the version with the rounded cast steel backplate: http://pds.exblog.jp/pds/1/200901/24...9_19114074.jpg
This really seems the "best of all worlds" answer. I just received a forwarded email from Bill H on another subject, maybe things have slowed a bit where he has opportunity to correspond. I'll fire an email off to him inquiring about options he has available, and post his response.Quote:
Considering GPA has a number of 416, 515 options, I see no obvious reason why they can't build you some E or maybe even 411 bottom end with original 515 top end. Now the latter would truly be the best Altec woofer of all assuming the hit in efficiency is acceptable.
Interesting, I've only seen/used the black one, but then I reached a point where I was fed up with Altec in general and no longer involved in prosound or relatively large/expensive HIFI DIY speakers.
Cool, hope he can give us a 'cookbook' to work from.
GM