Is there any obvious tone difference?.
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Is there any obvious tone difference?.
Don't think so.One is just Alnico the other Ferrite.But tonally most folks can't distinguish a difference.But then again everyone does have their preference.Myself included.
Original Altec built 416-8B and 416-8C certainly have distinguishable sonic differences.
I think i have read an account from an owner of the GPA 416C that revealed that it uses a copper shorting ring in the magnet circuit which makes the motor behave more like it's alnico brother and less like the original C. Voices i trust have said the GPA 416-8C may be the best of all the 416's while they seldom even discuss the Altec built C version. Someday i'd like to spend some quality time with a pair and hear for myself.
Good comment. Unfortunately my 416Bs need cone upgrades so I am toying with the idea of buying new GPAs and selling my current drivers 'as is'. A recone is also possible. I saw the GPA driver's specs and the 416C does 10Hz better at the low end for what it's worth. I have to do something and the C's are cheaper but not value if they aren't up to the B's.
What about the GPA 3154? It's got wider response, more power handling, and it's cheaper.
I agree with Bowtie - would really like to hear these new speakers.
Needs the power handling to get the same overall SPL's as it's much less sensitive than a 416.Quote:
What about the GPA 3154? It's got wider response, more power handling, and it's cheaper.
I doubt it'll play nearly as smooth over a wide BW in any given alignment. While it's probably an excellent choice for certain applications, it is not on par with the 416 for hifi apps.
If one of you were to change your original Altec 416b's in model 19's to one of the newer GPA versions which would you choose? GPA's ferrite or new alnico 416?
Personally, for use in a pair of existing Model 19's, if I were going to "swap out woofers" I'd use the GPA 416-8B (Alnico) to stay as true to the original Model 19 design as possible. If I were building a speaker system from scratch (new/custom design), I'd be very tempted to use the GPA 416-8C (ferrite).Quote:
Originally Posted by juniper
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Originally Posted by bowtie427ss
I have had a long conversation about this very thing with Bill when I was starting my DIY project. I had a bunch of 416's that needed to be reconed/remagged.I was considering buying new GPA 416-B's for my dual woofer corner box project and he said sonically, there was no real difference between the ferrite and Alnico Altec/GPA's.He also didn't understand why so many folk's wanted to stick with the Alnico Altec 416's and original cones (Like Me).And the GPA alnico 416B's that are more expensive.I think this all started with the preference of the original Altec 21184 cones WRT to sound difference compared to the new GPA cones.As far as the motors go, who knows.In the absence of any real measurements this point is still up in the air IMO.It still all boils down to ones personal sonic preferences WRT Alnico & Ferrite,Original Cones & Recones. YMMV.
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Voices i trust have said the GPA 416-8C may be the best of all the 416's
Agreed this is the point that Bill was trying to make to me.He thought the GPA 416C is the best choice because of the same sound (No difference, his opinion) but at a much cheaper cost when I was considering buying new GPA 416 B's.But I still ended up going with the recones of my Altec 416-8B's... Because of the original Altec drivers. :eek2:
It was cheaper though.:p
I just wanted to have original Altec's in the end I guess.But that is going to be one of my next purchases from GPA. 416-8C's
Bill said it, it must be true. Maybe, for the average or inexperienced listener it is.Quote:
I have had a long conversation about this very thing with Bill when I was starting my DIY project. I had a bunch of 416's that needed to be reconed/remagged.I was considering buying new GPA 416-B's for my dual woofer corner box project and he said sonically, there was no real difference between the ferrite and Alnico Altec/GPA's.
However, i will continue to parrot what i know from experience, and having listened to several versions of Altec 416 in my own systems and environment.
Fact #1, Altec made 2 different versions of 416-8C, the motors differ significantly. It is unfortunate that the "gurus" do not acknowledge this as the differing magnetic structures present different T/S parameters.
Fact #2, between the Altec built 416-8B, and 416-8C published parameters there are many differences, some of which nearly guarantee that they will sound different from each other in any given alignment, particularly where Qts is concerned.
AB, i would wager that if somebody snuck in and swapped your B's for C's in your 19's, you would very quickly be on the prowl to determine what was wrong or had changed in your system. I don't suggest that you would immediately look to the woofers. But, i do suggest that you would immediately detect some "familiarity" of the sonic signature of your 19's/system to be missing or changed.
In large BR boxes i noticed the difference between B and C immediately. In 828 cabinets i honestly can't say whether i heard a difference or if my mind was still polluted and biased from the difference i heard in the BR boxes. Knowing the difference i'd heard in the BR cabs certainly put a damper on my listening objectivity for that session.
My perception is that the B has the most natural bass presentation with a very natural sounding decay, and the C while having the same fast attack has a faster, kind of unnatural sounding decay, some might call it "overdamped".
IMO, the 416-8B is one of a small handful of woofers that represent "the best ever made", the C would find itself a good bit further down on my list.
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Voices i trust have said the GPA 416-8C may be the best of all the 416's
No different for me is it ? Bill is someones opinion I trust. As I do yours ! I agree about the Altec 416-8B's as they are my favorite 15" woofer "Hands Down".The C version sounded a bit muddy/colored to me.But again that's just my opinion.And not necessarily how they will sound to someone else.Quote:
Bill said it, it must be true.
But my point was and still is.What is the cause and effect of the slight differences in all the different 416 versions.The only facts on this seem to be opinions and that's it.Maybe a few of us can get together and do some measuring on some original Altec 416's A/B/C's and the newer GPA B/C's.It would be nice to finally see some kind of measurement comparisons on the 416 variations by Altec and the GPA models if there are any. Wouldn't this be ideal ? That's all I'm asking. :smile2:
To make it a fair test we would need several cabs, as that is an important part.
Also- best for someone else may not be best for you. If we did a test might be nice to have data and a synopsis of several tester's opinions.
How it sounds always takes precedence over how it measures...but if you can have both...
The Altec C has different T/S parameters than the B. Yet Altec put the C in the 19's with no changes to the cabinet. I never had the opportinity to put a pair of B's in mine to hear the difference. My B's had no cones and are gone now.
Along those lines. The cones GPA installs when you recone a B are NOT the same as stock. They are thinner and just not the same. I saved one original cone to compare to cones I bought from GPA. I'll say again, they are just not the same.
All that said, I would love to hear both of GPA's new versions in my 19's. However, that would be a very expensive experiment. Not going to happen for me.
Ron
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Originally Posted by Old Guy
Agreed.... I agree with everything Bowtie said. OG That's exactly what I'm talking about.What someone else hears maybe totally different than how you or someone else will perceive/hear it. How it sounds is always the best course than how it measures for each individual.But since we all hear things differently,opinions from one person to the next may not be valid.With some measurements it will help folks see with their eyes what they are actually hearing and will help them in the future to achieve those preferences.I think this would be of great help to many Altec DIYers.And then we can have the best of both worlds.
Have you ever been to a friends place back in the day to hear a speaker system that your friend or acquaintance had and said they think sounds great,(We all have,many times) but you didn't like it and have this expression on your face ? :Can't belive it:
It would just be nice to have the differences in print to look at for comparisons.
Important note here, i didn't for a second mean my comment as a dig toward Bill, or anyone else for that matter. I'm a practical enough thinker to understand that if Bill were to engage every inquiry with all of the subtle details that many of us ache to know, he would be hard pressed for time to do anything else, especially building and servicing the drivers we all appreciate.Quote:
No different for me is it ? Bill is someones opinion I trust.
I would guess that his response to you in regard to the differences between B and C was in a simpler and more basic context than what you or i would have hoped for a response, and i do understand why. You and i really want to hear the response that would be given to the same question at a round table discussion of the 416 woofer among he and his colleagues.
Sorry for the delay in responding Bowtie.Been off the board for a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by bowtie427ss
I have no idea where that came from.Bill is a great guy and friend who always had time to talk to me. :wink2:
That is one of the reasons I like Bill and GPA so much is when I do call he always,always, answers my questions to my satisfaction.I have had a lot of work done there.And parts bought.We are also in the midst of MAYBE collaborating on bringing a 3182 to market.Just waiting on Bill to send me a copy of the drawings for my machinist.A couple of prototypes will be made and sent to Bill for inspection first.For his machinist to reprogram all the machines it will be too expensive he said.My friend has a modern Mom & Pop type machine shop.That can do it for a fraction of the cost.So if everything goes as planned after the prototypes he will run off a bunch.From what Bill explained to me the difference between the 3184 & the 3182 is the top and bottom plates.Once he has the plates he can go into production with them. :Cross Fingers: He can't send me the original drawings for obvious reasons,but they are also too big for his printer to copy.So once I can get a set of working drawings we should be good to go. I hope !!! Then we can get some 18" 20 Hz Butt Kickers... :smile2:
Why? 18" is passe', 21-24" what's happening nowadays.....
I'm picturing GM in a pimped out Escalade.:DQuote:
Originally Posted by GM
No sweat AB, i think you should be allowed a few minutes away from the board now and then.:DQuote:
Sorry for the delay in responding Bowtie.Been off the board for a bit.
For one Altec never made a 21-24" Driver.Since I'm partial to Altec designs I would like to give it a whirl.Could a 21" driver be better, probably.But it would not be Altec. I know it's a flaw. I'm learning to live with it. Altecitis. :Big smile:
With hydraulics on it bouncing up and down the road... :biggrin2:Quote:
Originally Posted by bowtie427ss
Long as it's big enough to put one of these in back :D: http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/pdf/T...ec%20Sheet.PDFQuote:
Originally Posted by bowtie427ss
GM
Understood, it was ~ a rhetorical question. ;) I figured if nothing else, GPA has some excess kits to use up. The 3182 was hot $#&@ when it came out till McCauley released its awesome 6174-18.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altec Best
Talk about a brute, a pair of these in pipe horns peaked well above what could be measured in a large custom HT for one of the local pro ball players. At the time, their concussive impact was the closest I'd ever experienced to a 500 lb TNT bomb simulator's, though I've since experienced even more impact from a DSL TH system.
GM
The "Cinemonster" 144 dB spl peak ! Yikes.. :Can't belive it:Quote:
Originally Posted by GM