The loudness button on all new stereo receivers is gone .The advent of the subwoofer and RTA makes the system obsolite.
Fletcher
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The loudness button on all new stereo receivers is gone .The advent of the subwoofer and RTA makes the system obsolite.
Fletcher
How do subwoofers and RTAs make loudness buttons obsolete? IMO, it was lack of standardisation of domestic audio equipment operating levels and of sound pressure calibration of loudspeakers/rooms that made loudness buttons obsolete.
BobR
THe Sub woofer fills the room with ambiant bass. If you have a more sophisticated system with active compononets you can RTA the sound perfectly.Quote:
Originally Posted by joyspring
Classic Loudness +30DB in the bass control is automatic in that it is directly tied to the volume control of the amp. As the volume control is turned up/down, the frequency curve is also changed, per the Fletcher-Munson curve, so the human ear perceives consistency
The self powered sub woofer output on all new recivers is directly linked to volume control also.
Quote from Parts Express :What is the best way to get the audio signal to the subwoofer amplifier? If your system is a relatively new multi-channel home theater receiver, it will have an "LFE" (low frequency effect) or subwoofer output. This is a single or dual-mono RCA jack output and is the best way to get the signal from the processor to the subwoofer. The output level of this jack will change in unison with the main volume control of the receiver, meaning that once you set the relative level of the subwoofer it should always match the main speakers. This jack also usually has an adjustable output level that can provide more or less signal to the subwoofer, useful in "fine tuning" the bass levels. Usually the default setting of 0 dB will work well with most subwoofers, but in some cases raising or lowering this may be necessary. Generally we want the subwoofer's volume control to be set near 50%.:
THis summs it up.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/sho...6&postcount=14
Yamaha still makes it but with a variable loudness .
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...384641-0735426
A subwoofer does assist at low frequency but so will any large system that has sufficient volume displacement and proper tuning.Quote:
Originally Posted by LICORNE
You can RTA the sound perfectly at a single listening level. When you turn your volume knob down, a preamp/receiver/amplifier will not compensate for equal loudness...
But you then mention active components - by which I assume you're referring to DSP - and yes, the better implementations (i.e. - Audyssey XT, etc.) do have equal loudness compensation based upon its room test measurements. This has nothing to do with subwoofers or RTAs as mentioned in your OP.
Quote:
Classic Loudness control is automatic in that it is directly tied to the volume control of the amp. As the volume control is turned up/down, the frequency curve is also changed, per the Fletcher-Munson curve, so the human ear perceives consistency
The "Classic Loudness Control" is tied to the volume control of an amp by using a tapped potentiometer (usu. at 40%) to implement a facsimile of equal loudness curves at lower listening levels with the volume control below the tap. This never was standardised because it would be impossible to do so.
As I mentioned before, proper implementation depends on loudspeaker sensitivity, amplifier gain, room acoustical loading.
I would hope so.Quote:
The self powered sub woofer output on all new recivers is directly linked to volume control also.
BTW, the term `Fletcher-Munson' has been deprecated as subsequent research resulted in an international standard (ISO 226) referred to as `Equal Loudness Contour'.
BobR
Kinda silly dude. Most home systems DO NOT have RTA so that has absolutely nothing to do with it. OTOH what they do have is better onboard EQ, some systems have rudimentary signal processing. But ain't no RTA. You keep assuming that if you want something everybody else does. 999 out of 1000, maybe even more, home systems do not have RTA.
Nice of you to edit this post _after_ I replied to it.
There was _never_ any standard as to how a manufacturer attempted to implement this.Quote:
Classic Loudness +30DB in the bass control is automatic in that it is directly tied to the volume control of the amp. As the volume control is turned up/down, the frequency curve is also changed, per the Fletcher-Munson curve, so the human ear perceives consistency
None ever adhered to `Fletcher-Munson' (or its successors) because that would entail the critical step of a _user_ calibrating a system to a specific reference sound pressure.
While most utilised a tapped potentiometer, I've got schematics from several receivers/preamps - from a mono Sherwood S-1000-II to a Kenwood KA-801 - and all use differing amounts of LF equalisation and turnover frequencies. The Sherwood offers upwards of +20 dB at 20 hz whereas the Kenwood and NAD preamp have 9-12 dB and all have different turnover fs.
Again, how manufacturers implemented `Classic Loudness' was never standardised and none adhered to `Fletcher Munson' or standardised equal loudness curves... how could they?
I currently work with cinema sound in both sound design/mixing and presentation in an educational setting so I will clear up how this 5.1 subwoofer/LFE business works for you...Quote:
Quote from Parts Express :What is the best way to get the audio signal to the subwoofer amplifier? If your system is a relatively new multi-channel home theater receiver, it will have an "LFE" (low frequency effect) or subwoofer output. This is a single or dual-mono RCA jack output and is the best way to get the signal from the processor to the subwoofer. The output level of this jack will change in unison with the main volume control of the receiver, meaning that once you set the relative level of the subwoofer it should always match the main speakers. This jack also usually has an adjustable output level that can provide more or less signal to the subwoofer, useful in "fine tuning" the bass levels. Usually the default setting of 0 dB will work well with most subwoofers, but in some cases raising or lowering this may be necessary. Generally we want the subwoofer's volume control to be set near 50%.:
There is one subwoofer channel; it is fed by two sources: output from Bass Management and Low Frequency Effects (LFE):
1. Bass Management -- redirected, summed and low-passed (typically 80 hz) from Left, Centre, Right, Left Surround and Right Surround audio tracks.
2. Low Frequency Effects (LFE) -- A completely separate magnetic audio track introduced with 70 mm six-channel and now integrated into Dolby digital formats. This track is typically low-passed at 120 hz and here's the _critical_ distinction: it is _boosted_ +10 dB relative to L, C, R, Ls and Rs tracks. Mixers use the LFE track sparingly for effects and it is never downmixed.
Now that I've cleared the subwoofer utilisation up for you, let me mention that your belated inclusion of the Parts Express instructions is completely and entirely irrelevant to the concept of Equal Loudness.
BobR
Yes I`m aware of all this I did spent some time in a Post prod. facility. And to continue on the 5.1 tracking here is a basic
set up .
NAB 2009 - Innovations in post production workflows with creative tools (2 of 2) - YouTube
Are you looking for coherent discussion, or just posting things? Seems like you make a lot of posts without thinking it thru.
Yes old guy. I just thought of something. If your stereo receiver has a sub out not a LFE out. It has abuilt in XO. IF your acitve sub has an XO also that changes the curve for quite a steep curve. So we should look for a sub with 3 options line level in. high level in such as speaker . and a bypass for XO sub.Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guy
Now for 5.1 receivers most new units have a selection for either LFE sub or Sub only. The acitve sub manufacturer should have a defeat button on his active sub.
No wonder the grammy broadcaster receives all kind of feed back explanations from different parts of the country during the show.
Not enough bass here. plenty there. We have to standardized this situation quickly.They use DOLBY 5.1 . THerefore he's not sending bass in the LFE.For music the The LFE is not used except for 1812 overture with the cannons.
Now I'll admit to being very argumentative but now I'm convinced that you must be a troll. I offer latitude to your endeavours in English (French-Canadian?) but not to outright stupidity.
Something that doesn't involve posting images of vintage mics/loudspeakers/equipment and regaling us about how much better it was in the `Old Days' of high distortion/high-noise/low-signal-to-noise optical monophonic soundtrack audio?Quote:
Originally Posted by LICORNE
Of course it has a sub out, not a LFE out. LFE is one of two components of a sub out. Re-read my post above. Better yet, have a look at this:Quote:
If your stereo receiver has a sub out not a LFE out.
Bass management - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"The key concept is that the LFE channel is not the `subwoofer channel'"
Whatever. I would include a bounty of links to Dolby, various Wiki pages, surround/cinema info that are available via your favourite search engine but I doubt you'd take the time to conduct even rudimentary research as that would take away from your time spent looking at ancient Vitavox loudspeakers and WWII-era condensor microphones.Quote:
It has abuilt in XO. IF your acitve sub has an XO also that changes the curve for quite a steep curve. So we should look for a sub with 3 options line level in. high level in such as speaker . and a bypass for XO sub.
Now for 5.1 receivers most new units have a selection for either LFE sub or Sub only. The acitve sub manufacturer should have a defeat button on his active sub.
This all has been standardised, starting in the cinema industry, then in consumer products. You're simply having a difficult time grasping the concept.
It's already standardised. It's obvious that you don't know how Dolby Digital works and you haven't a clue how the broadcaster is mixing the show. Your assertion regarding feedback on the programme is specious as well.Quote:
No wonder the grammy broadcaster receives all kind of feed back explanations from different parts of the country during the show.
Not enough bass here. plenty there. We have to standardized this situation quickly.They use DOLBY 5.1 . THerefore he's sending bass in the LFE.
Next time you use a search engine, try substituting `5.1', `surround sound', `low frequency effects', `LFE', `ITU-R BS 775', `bass management' INSTEAD OF `Telefunken', `Neumann', `Vitavox', `Western Electric', `Westrex', `Nagra 4.2' et al. You might learn a bit of how things actually work nowadays and what those who worked with the latter list dreamt longingly for.
BobR
Rather than taking the time to scan my Holman surround sound book or any number of Dolby papers I have in my office, I found this simple block diagram of typical cinema (and home theatre) bass management. This ought to clear up any confusion as to how bass management routing works.
This is from a vendor that produces a bass management VST plug-in (disclaimer: I have no involvement in this project nor have I used it or will attempt to vouch for its effectiveness) -- I'm simply using the image.
Bass Management
BobR
There will be no trolling here ! Please think before hitting the submit button...
Hi Joyspring, I resized the photo as I could barely read.. Hope you don't mind.
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2012/09/38.jpg
THis would be the setting for small speakers : you have a summation of all channels to the sub. IN the case of large speakers setting there is somme summation.The chart spec is not clear on the subject.That is why people hear more bass with small speakers and less with large speakers when listening to OPera from the Met or the Grammys. This Dolby 5.1 sytem was designed for professional cinema application. THe Low FRequecy Effects channell adds 10 DB boost to the effects .
The DP571 dolby encoder
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2012/09/39.jpg
They hear the same thing so long as the subwoofers and large speakers have comparable low frequency extension and volume displacement (headroom) because the system is spec'ed and calibrated properly (now isn't this what I mentioned in a previous posting?). A sensible operator would decide whether redirection is necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by LICORNE
Suppose you really believe that dropping the name of high-profile venue you certainly know little about (`Grammys', Metropolitan) adds credibility to your argument... how very sad.
Thank you for repeating what I have already stated in my postings above.Quote:
THe Low FRequecy Effects channell adds 10 DB boost to the effects .
LOL, how does posting this image contribute to this thread? Again, rather sad.Quote:
The DP571 dolby encoder
Final post: I apologise for feeding the troll.
BobR
Bob, I honestly don't think he is a troll as much as he has a desperate need to play in a forum. So he Googles something then tries to present himself as knowing what he is talking about. Which falls down a lot. Problem I have with his posts is much of the time he is not knowledgeable about the subject. He should be asking questions instead of posting answers.