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I never thought that I'd be typing this.
I've bought a pair of speakers that wipe the floor with my Altecs. Although I haven't placed any ads, my Altecs are all going to go.
I will always have a fond-spot for the Altec brand. It has almost been 10 years since i got my Valencias.
You'll be back. :cool:
Please do continue to hang around though - I like your attitude and contributions!
All right, I have a rope, just need a posse... when we are done we can throw him on the barbie.....
Just kidding.... congratulations! finding what works with our ears and tastes and spaces, can be difficult. It has taken me 3yrs to find an amp for my 19's and I have tried many... good luck, I am sure in Australia you will have no problem reselling your Altecs. If you dont mind saying? What speakers are they?
I have been using Altec 846A Valencias for almost 10 years.
So what did you find?
Attachment 1568
KRK's best studio monitor, the Expose E8B.
EXPOSE Studio Monitor Speaker KRK SYSTEMS
They are everything I have wanted my Valencias to be at one eighth the size. The only reason I have these, is that I was able to get a pair of them for $1700. The cheapest NEW price I can find for them is $5,900.
They simply sound glorious.
You will soon find that there is no substitute for SPL!
I concur.Quote:
Originally Posted by endeeinn
Westlake baby!!! Love my BBSM-10's, and will eventually move significantly up that ladder.
But, i have a large format Altec system to complete first after moving to the new place, and space will be dedicated for enjoying a few pairs of various Altecs for a long time to come.
In my listening room they go to higher SPLs than the Altecs.
Something don't sound right about that. Says the new speakers max peak SPL is 115dB. Any big Altec setup should reach that level and beyond. Especially in a smaller space. Anyways, it's all about what sound you like and looks like you've found it. Have fun, I'm sure you'll come back to Altec after a while of using those...Quote:
Originally Posted by theophile
And I thought for sure you were gonna say Martin Logans.... Oh well If it's what you want then I say Enjoy. That's what it's all about right?
20 inches high by 14 by 14 and weigh 70 pounds.... Wow.
Gone Troppo?????
Australian Slang Dictionary See under 'G' in this link.:eek2:
Blissfully happy.
You have to remember that this speakers have 2 power amps inside each one. That's why they "look" so heavy on paper. I don't think they have anything magical in them to make them sound like the best thing since sliced-bread though. They are flat sounding monitors and that blows peoples minds when they hear flat response sometimes. I personally think they are overpriced but that's just me. If I'm going to invest in something that expensive, it will be Altecs all the way. As long as it's the sound he wants, that's all that matters.Quote:
Originally Posted by cradeldorf
Im guessing the 70lbs is for the pair?
I understand that of course what sounds "better" is a matter of personal preference, but I'm wondering if there's something wrong with your Valencias if these 8" woofer speaker systems sound louder than they do?Quote:
Originally Posted by theophile
I agree with vott, My Altecs Eat 8" speakers for breakfast?
My Altecs are 8" speakers. And 10".
You should try the 15's, Mmmmm Good. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Geekstar
Do the math, 8 (755A) + 10 (756B) = 18.
Actually. I don't listen to them at the same time. but 18>15.
I used the 15s for 15 years. 1505 + 288c + 416s in Onkens. That's 15 cells with 15 inchers, aka "30s" :cool:
Working on my trusty pr of 414Zs in mini 828 cabs next.
You will never catch me with any yellow 6" woofers.
JR
LOL, I like your math thinking.
They look like Book shelve speakers to me. Valencia's aren't Top of line Altecs.. And they don't cost $5900 either. With that kind of money you could put together a bunch of large format Altecs ! One for each corner for some killer sound :biggrin2:
Lets settle this foolish debate and just burn him at the stake !!!
I didn't even intend to be part of a debate. They are probably nice sounding speakers. As I mentioned, what sounds "better" is a matter of personal preference. I just think it's possible that there is something wrong with his Valencias if he's saying that these 8" woofer speaker systems play louder than his Valencias. I think burning him at the stake may be slightly extreme anyways. It would be much more humane to sentence him to live on a "prison island" (kidding--I don't have a prejudiced bone in my body).......Quote:
Originally Posted by cls500
I'm aware of another strong Altec advocate who has nothing but good things to say about KRK monitors from the bottom end of their line. I can imagine their top effort might be fairly significant. I'd welcome some to my stable just like the Westlakes. But they're not going to displace any of my Altecs. As much as there are bigger Westlakes in my future, it's extremely doubtful that they will displace any Altecs either.
That should be reserved for those wanting to come to an Altec forum to preach the virtues of their Heresies, and HPM-100's.Quote:
I think burning him at the stake may be slightly extreme anyways.
As good as Theo's impressions of his Valencia's were, i can't help but wonder if the somewhat stiffer load of 8 ohm components on his SS amplification might have taken them up another notch for him.
I actually heard a pair of "mini-monitors" at the Munich show last year that I could live with---KEF LS50. I'd recommend these to the OP if he can arrange to hear them in Oz.
They played loud and projected big, lit up a very large space...my first thought is that they sounded kinda like ALTEC.
I can appreciate that a dinky little speaker can work much better in many rooms. I cant do big Altec where I live, so I am doing the 8" and 10" full rangers for the moment.
However, for me, Valencia is a type of orange, not a top of the line Altec. Large format, Baby!
Comparing Valencias to 288 systems is like comparing screw top bum wine to the good stuff. The poor guy jumped off the ladder at the first rung.
There seems to be a M19/other 511 system madness going on right now on some of the other forums. I try to hold my tongue since everybody is having such a good time. I guess ya gotta start somewhere...
Geekstar now that I know that my 19's and 604's are on the first rung, what system would you propose around the 288, in a cabinet that is around 300lbs per speaker without drivers and that looks acceptable in a home environment?
1505s with bass reflex 416s....no make that TWO 416s. However, you might have to go tar filled to reach the 300lb specification. Don't know if you can get there with sheet metal horns and 1" ply.
Did I ever mention acceptable looks for home environment?
Actually, I tell you no lie, women LOVED my 1505/Onken system. Chicks love ALTEC, the bigger the better.
In all honestly, I am no fan of 511s. I consider it a flawed product and it really doesn't bring out the best in those excellent 1" ALTEC drivers. They give me a headache.
Jeff Markwart wiil tell ya, when he submitted that Exemplar article for Sound Practices I gave him an earful on 511s! But, he and John Tucker were the authors, I was just a lowly editor. Gotta give the writers space for self-expression and all.
As somebody concurred in a thread on DiyA or somewhere when I was trashing 511s, which I do to be a devil's advocate and light the way of truth, "this is the horn that gave horns speakers a bad name." Forget who it was but it probably wasn't Mike Pano. ;)
Now the point has been made, and I think correctly, that the 511 based M19/Valencia/etc. makes a great old school Rock and Roll system but I cant say that this configuration is the best of ALTEC, not by a large margin.
19s are better than a lot of stuff and a super classic, but they are not the best ALTEC. Good enough to get people hooked though.
Once I tasted multicells and 288s, I couldn't go back to 511s. Actually, I never liked them from the start. Never did, never will.
I'm sorta working on a 32C/802/414 setup and that is sounding pretty good for a small footprint, low key rig.
604s are another issue entirely.
Hey Juniper, here's something small, cute, and good sounding.
A Lansing Iconic from the Silbatone factory collection....field coil, but it could be done with all ALTEC alnico stuff.
Bass cab is essentially a 620. Driver is a Lansing 801, substitute an 802. Getting the 808 horns might be the hard part...
This old thing sounded really nice. I think the old phenolic H808 is smoother than the tar filled, which is a tiny bit hard edged, but the system sure put out some music for its size!
You may have wanted to consider continuing to hold your tongue as you seem to have no clue as to what you're talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Geekstar
I have trouble respecting the opinion of someone who repeatedly states in multiple posts that Model 19's use a 511 horn. I would never try to say that I think the 288 is inferior to a 902-8a or 802-8g. I will, however, state that the 288 is not necessarily better than the Model 19's h.f. driver for home hi fi use-- it is very much an apples and oranges comparison/personal preference matter as far as which is better for home hi fi use IMHO. The 288 has considerable strengths, but for one thing, the 288 rolls off at about 15k and does not have the h.f. extension that some of the smaller format h.f. drivers like the 902-8a have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Geekstar
OK, it seems like your beef with Model 19's is not the h.f. driver (which you call excellent), it's the 511 horn. Well, guess what, the Model 19 never used a 511 horn. Neither did the Valencia. Please try to at least have some kind of a clue as to what you're talking about before you denigrate an amazing home hi fi speaker system like the Model 19.Quote:
Originally Posted by Geekstar
FWIW, I prefer my Model 19's over the 846A Valencias and AS 101's (similar to 846B's) that I used to own. I would not call them better, I prefer their extended bandwidth in both the high and low end over the Valencias. The Valencias are great sounding speakers and have their own unique strengths/charm. I'm guessing you are just trying to get a reaction out of people like me by going onto an Altec forum and denigrating Model 19's. If that makes you happy, go for it. And yes, you've succeeded. You got a reaction..... :p If you're not just trying to get a reaction and really don't like Model 19's because of their 511 horns, then I hope the parallel universe you live in where Model 19's use 511 horns is working out for you...
EDIT: By the way, I have owned 511 horns in the past and I like them--they never gave me a headache!
I find it VERY interesting that the makers of these "SuperSpeakers" don't publish any frequency response measurement graphs, impedance plots, or polar plots.
If they do, I didn't see where they hid them.
I'd also like to see the transient response of them, compared to a properly designed/built/operating horn loaded system.
As for them being able to generate higher SPL's than a Model 19, I find that difficult to believe. It would be acoustically and physically impossible for something that small to generate REAL sound pressure levels that exceed a properly designed horn-loaded system, or even a Model 19.
As Alexis Badmaeiff wrote, when Edgar Villchur was touting the AR-1, "A Good BIG Speaker Is BETTER Than The BEST Little Speaker"....
Insert popcorn eating emoticon here.
OK, you are correct that I am smearing together 811s and 511s. MAYBE 811s are a little bit better but I never heard anything to convince myself of that. Some folks do argue that they are. I lump them together. Could be an error on some level.
I have and use 802s and I really like the drivers. I had M19s and Valencias in the 80s. The very first big Altecs I had were M19s in 1985. Sold them when I found a pair of Valencias for $200. By 1989, I switched to large format for the most part. At that point I had a 10x20' storage locker full of horns, drivers, cabinets and electronics. ALTEC horns were like popcorn. I had them stacked to the ceiling. ALTEC was "the workingmans revenge"--cheap, plentiful, and good. 288s were $75 all day long. People gave me horns and loaded VOT cabinets for hauling them away. I got to experiment quite a bit and pick and choose. Now it would cost a fortune.
Of course, I recognize that a lot of people sincerely like 19s and Valencias. That is my whole point. I'm seeing an explosion of "511 love" everywhere I look it seems.
I think they are getting in on the first step though and there is a lot to progress to beyond the sectorals. I don't dive in and say "hey those sectorals suck...get 288s and multicells or die." As a dyed in the wool ALTEC lover, I am glad to see people loving the M19s and small format VOTs.
Conversely, many people do not care for 811/511 sectorals and thereby declare "ALTEC" to be junk...or let's say colored and lacking finesse or subtlety. I agree with that assessment. There I point out that this is not really the best Altec has to offer.
Check out my 50 page battle on DiyA about this! I had lovers and haters piling on!
I KNOW there is a long way to go way BEYOND the 1" and cast aluminum sectoral level of performance with ALTEC. I know because I have done it a couple two three times.
Over the last six months, I tried various Emilar and Renkus horns (which I consider extensions of ALTEC) on my 802s and they are ALL better than 811/511. The 32B/C is also working out really well for my taste....smooth and open. There are a lot of 1" metal horns that are really good. I was listening to WE KS12025s two weeks ago and they are great. Good small format horns are totally possible.
However, those 511 type horns have a honky ring that I can't help keying in on and it drives me nuts...and not just me.
(note:I have not tried 511A)
I happen to be a huge Altec fan plus a vocal & public supporter of the mark for several decades, yet I really dislike 511s and 811s and do not think they are up to the general standard of much other Altec pro gear. I say the same thing to ALTEC fans and ALTEC haters, to silence the haters and hopefully inspire the fans to check out further options. Been saying it here for a while. Only reaction I am looking for is thought.
As for this forum, I was the very first poster on the Altec Users Board.
In this thread, we have a guy who like KRK monitors better than ALTECs. Well, that's cool. He is the one who gets to listen to his own system, so he gets to choose. There are a lot of speakers out there. My gut response...that is low end of the food chain ALTEC anyway. I can totally understand how some people might like a flat, well behaved monitor over Valencias. I even recommended one to check out, the fantastic KEF LS50.
We're all talking from our own experience and preferences. I believe that a well-tuned set of 1505s and 288s with 416s can stand up to anything around, except perhaps Mirrophonic M2 and maybe the same setup with Lansing 297 and 415 field coils, which I had.
I hear elaborate horn systems quite often in my travels, including very fancy, rare, and big stuff. Rarely do I hear something that I feel beats a properly put together 288 system for my tastes. I had one at home for 16 years. I was 100% happy with it. Didn't even think about replacing it.
Tried many differnt horns...TAD, Edgarhorns, blah blah blah, and I put the 1505s back up every time.
If I didn't do the work, then one could say I don't know what I'm talking about, but I gave the 811/511 sectorals my best shot many many times. I really wanted to like them because they are such trademark ALTEC units and I love ALTEC.
Forgive my candor but I call it like I hear it. 802s...excellent! 416s...great! 811/511...YUCK!
If you think I'm nuts, try a Renkus-Heinz exponential (even cheaper than 811 on ebay) and you tell me which is better.
And, then again, I could, of course, be totally wrong !!:biggrin2: But I will always have ALTEC speakers of some type until my dying day.
I feel better now Joe, i was afraid to tell you that i've been using the 9846's as subwoofers only, with the 411's wired direct for over a year now.:D
And, i totally get the 32B horn love too, totally. I run 9849-8D's on a cheesy little T-amp. I reference them with Krell powered Westlakes in the same room. 9849 is a good little speaker, darn good.
Sorry some of the other fellas don't quite know who you are yet, but they'll catch on.;)
OK, at least I understand what you're saying now. I'm sorry but it seemed to me like I was dealing with someone who had no clue as to what a Model 19 was or what horn it used because you kept saying it has a 511. BTW, there are multiple effective ways to dampen that ring.Quote:
Originally Posted by Geekstar
OK, you mean 811 love, right? I wouldn't lump Valencias and 19's together. I've owned two pair of each (still own two pair of 19's) and they are very different sounding speakers. I'll grant you even though I consider the Valencias to be nice sounding speakers, they could arguably be called "entry level" horn loaded Altecs. On the other hand, I consider the Model 19's to be a masterpiece of audio engineering. Crystal clear, clean sound/great soundstage/extended bandwidth--deep thundering bass and nice sizzle to the highs/powerful enough to fill a relatively large home listening environment with ease.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Geekstar
OK, you like the 32B and you mention all these other horns but apparently don't even think the Mantaray is worth mentioning? I think the Mantaray is superior to the curved 32B design in many ways but I want to say that it's just an opinion--the 32B is a good horn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Geekstar
OK, finally something we may not have to agree to disagree on. I would have trouble and wouldn't want to argue this point. Yes, the Valencias IMHO could be considered entry level horn loaded Altecs. I don't think many people would say they are Altecs best horn loaded home speakers. They have a noticeable rolled off response in the high and low end and I can also see how someone who owns a pair might hear a pair of monitors that are fairly flat from 40 to 20,000 hz and be impressed. Yes, maybe if this same person owned a pair of Model 14's, a pair of 19's, or a nice 288 based system, they wouldn't be so quick to jump the Altec ship. I think you make an important general point here. I really didn't want to get into a debate with this thread. As I've said, I think it's up to his personal preference what sounds best to him. I do think there may be something wrong with his Valencias if he says this pair of monitors with 8" woofers play louder than his Valencias. Plus, as Todd brought up, I wonder what the transient response of these little monitors is compared to a nice pair of horn loaded Altecs??Quote:
Originally Posted by Geekstar
OK, I need to show more respect to this forum's first poster. You obviously have a lot of experience and hopefully we can agree to disagree on matters of personal preference. I like your attitude. I will also always have Altecs until my dying day. I would still argue that for a home hi fi two way system, a 288 multicell setup isn't necessarily better than an 802-8g/811b or 902-8a/811b based two way system. That is very much an apples and oranges comparison. While the 288's have significant strengths/fantastic mids and great highs I personally would miss the high frequency extension for hi fi use (they roll off at 15k) unless you add a tweeter to the 288 to make it a 3 way system which makes it even more of an apples/oranges comparison to a Model 19. In smaller rooms, 288's with multicell horns and two 416's might be considered by some to be too much--I think that would be a better "long throw" system for a good sized room but that's my opinion and that's all it is..... I think for a relatively large space the system you've described earlier in this thread (two 416's, multicell horn, 288 driver) would KICK SOME SERIOUS ASS but I might add a tweeter to it if it was my home hi fi system. Of course, there are those that add tweeters to Model 19's, so to each his own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Geekstar
I was the second poster, and I invented the internet........ok, those are both fibs.......
The Valencia is a bass reflex with a horn.
The M19 is a bass reflex with a horn.
It is a bigger reflex, has a better hf driver and a better crossover. With an M19 xover, and the 902-8A or 802-8G hf driver, the Valencia would be darn close. Later versions were equipped with the -8B woof.
No one ever sems to mention the similarities.
That said, I thank the OP for making more Altecs available to those who want them, and for starting what has become a very enlightening thread!
Ron
Believe me I know. Like I said, I don't draw a huge line between the 811 and 511. I worked more with the 511 as a loose horn, 811s in packaged systems.Quote:
it seemed to me like I was dealing with someone who had no clue as to what a Model 19 was or what horn it used because you kept saying it has a 511.
The ring/honk I object to is in the geometry, not the metal...although there is plenty of ring in the metal too. I tried everything to snuff it. Everybody I knew in the 80s was trying everything to make that horn better. We tried sand, clay, cutting the fins and inserting rubber strips, smoothing the inside of the throat, whatever. See how many are on ebay now? Back in 1988, 511s were almost littering the streets! Every vintage gear collector had a few pairs in the garage. I have owned dozens that somehow come home to live with me.
I might be imaging this but some of the happiest 511/811 guys appear to be using the smaller magnet 804 and 806 drivers...could there be something to this theory?
They are not bad...better than most stuff before during and after their time (including Valencias). I would meet you halfway and call them "70s classics." Sorry, I'm a bit of a snob sometimes. :cool2:Quote:
On the other hand, I consider the Model 19's to be a masterpiece of audio engineering.
Western Electric 757A, Klangfilm Eurodyn, or Mirrophonic Model 2 are masterpieces...M19s are 70s classics.
I think a better horn in the 19s would really turn the corner on those things. Check out the wide open Renkus exponentials or the Emilar compound flare horns. Far more open and uncolored than an 811 to my ear. Super crystal clear.
I don't modify or booger up vintage gear anymore myself because I feel it should be kept original for people who appreciate it for what it is, but I think this experiment can be done in a non-destructive and reversible manner. I think some of these latter-day horns were even designed to fit ALTEC mounting cutouts, since Renkus was an ALTEC alumnus (and no doubt chasing some retrofit action).
Never tried the small Mantaray yself, only heard them in passing, hence I have no firm opinion. I do think it should be better than 811s though!Quote:
you like the 32B and you mention all these other horns but apparently don't even think the Mantaray is worth mentioning?
I've been on the 1" experiments for about 6-8 months. I want to do a smallish 12" + horn monitor in the spirit of the WE 757A or maybe the M15/9849. Digging the 32B horn a lot. It is very low key and has a presentation with a lot of character. I'm split on the metal vs plastic question, leaning metal, but still keeping my options open till I hear the final configuration.
Right now I'm listening to 755A and 756Bs. No room for big horns. I have had 288 systems in smallish rooms and it worked OK, but here I literally don't have the floorspace to put them in the house. The floorplan sucks for hifi. I was so disgusted I didn't even have a system set up for a few years.
Totally. Obviously the OP likes and respects the ALTEC approach. I just don't think he got the best hit off the ALTEC pipe, so to speak, with Valencias.Quote:
As I've said, I think it's up to his personal preference what sounds best to him.
This is the point I am trying to make.
For me, other people's systems are like their sexual activities...I'm cool with whatever you're into as long as I don't have to participate! :biggrin2:
I actually think something like a Valencia is really hard to get 100% dialed in. Stock xovers don't sound that great, cabinet is boomy. I can see how a decent modern high-end speaker can be refreshing after a while living with a vintage piece for many listeners. Most vintage speakers have "faults," such as resonant cabs and various colorations, that can get to you after a while. Proper placement for a big box can be impossible.
I used the Hiraga EQ crossover with my 1505s and peaked up the HF a little bit more than he did. I tried many different tweeters including Ionovacs, Stage Accompany ribbons, all kinds of bullets and slots. Best match I found was a Gauss bullet, but two way with EQ beat out the added tweeters for coherency. The Stage Accompanys were fantastic too but I had them on loan for review and couldn't afford to keep them. I never missed the highest highs and probably can't even hear them now at age 52! Balance matters more than extension to me.
Where I think the 288s excel is the low end of the spectrum. I seem to get a more coherent match with the woofs with the large format than with 1" drivers and I really liked taking the xover down as low as the HF horn would allow. 416s start getting a bit scratchy at 1k+.
I don't think I have experienced the best I can get out of an 802 yet. This is my project for the coming year. 811/511 will not be on the menu, as I am sure you can believe after that rant!
I wants me a pr! I think that is as small as you can go and "keep the faith."Quote:
9849 is a good little speaker, darn good.
I listened to a pr of WE 753C again two weeks ago at the factory in Korea. Pic attached. 32A works real good in that speaker too.
Yeah, I'm that off-the-chain dude who goes around hatin' on 511s!Quote:
Sorry some of the other fellas don't quite know who you are yet, but they'll catch on.;)
Joe? Hmmmm, Exemplars.....editor.....hmmmmm......bug screens.......chinch bugs.
You are the reason my Altecs sound as good as they do. I think I have most of the old SP mags.
BTW, as Bowtie knows, I have a pair of 9849's....I guess I better fire them up!
Ron
