Out of a labor of love I want to build a set of 1803B multicell horns in wood, anyone know if the plans are available?
Thanks for any help.
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Out of a labor of love I want to build a set of 1803B multicell horns in wood, anyone know if the plans are available?
Thanks for any help.
If you mean official Altec plans, I would say absolutely not. Altec never published blueprints, there would not be "plans" per se. Plans are for cabinets, which Altec did publish.
I would post in all the DIY forums, you may find someone who has made a set and will share.
You may want to read this thread at DIY.. This will help guide you through construction..I assume you want to use wood ? There are members here that own 1803's that might be able to give you some measurements but this thread will help you to actually build them... I would love to see you do a build thread on them here if you do go ahead and do them.. :wink2:
The construction of a multicell horn - diyAudio
Edit: It seems the pics in his thread have been lost.:frown2:
All you really need are the dimensions for a single cell, and a detail of the collector and throat.
Google Japan is my friend. DIY horn multicell (18 cell) - Page 2
Yes, I mentioned I did want to use wood. Shame about the pics, maybe they will magically reappear at some point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altec Best
Quote:
Originally Posted by bowtie427ss
I wish it were that easy but it is not a conical profile expanding in a linear fashion, so if you look close at the pics each vane is sort of like an airplane wing.
Don't want to end up with interesting wood for a bond fire.................although that might look pretty cool having bond fire flames shoot out of a multi cell!
I would have to get the measurements all the way down the cell and not just the mouth exit. I suppose I could plug in the exponential profile with a few rudimentary dimensions but I don't really want to reinvent the wheel. (I swore a vow to give up differential calculus when I was at the college level because I thought I was a waste of time and would never use it again....I may have been wrong)
If I were doing it...and I might some day if AB throws down the gauntlet on a build thread, I would use a photo looking straight down and just expand the dimensions to make my patterns. The resulting outlines will be very servicable. Of course I'm assuming the vertical members are the same as the horizontal ones. If the opening is square, it should be...no?
Or maybe someone that owns one can trace the outline and scan it. Size doesn't matter, it can be printed to scale.
I fear that execution of the build will factor more into the final result than the starting plans. Making 18, no 36 identical cells will be more of a challenge than the calculus. I would think jigs should be utilized.
You can build what you want... I think I can speak for most we Love build threads ! With lots of photos.. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by alancohen
I like doing build threads too. It keeps me motivated and it always helps getting suggestions from board members.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altec Best
Once I get the shop organized I think it's going to be a pair of 828s first. Then some 805s maybe. I'm in no danger of building 1803s .
As I mentioned it is not a linear expansion like a conical and the center cell mouths are slightly different than the top and bottom cells plus the termination of the cells near the throat adapter are not really a straight line either.Quote:
Originally Posted by alancohen
I don't think a jig is needed for one pair of horns but having the few different template fins would be needed.
Even if I did have an original 1803B horn available near by me in North Florida it would take some time to make template paper of the cells, trace the throat adapter and take enough measurements of the throat adapter with machine machine shop measuring tool tools to make a relevant drawing..........
Ugghh...that is why I was hoping to get the plans, it is going to take enough tine to build it without having to design it again.
Alan, if you are building multicells and spending and have a shop available why not build the king of multicells 1803B forget the lesser smaller sounding puny horns and have the voice of God in your living room....just joking don't want to get any spouses on my case about convincing anyone to make a pair of these monsters. I am building mine for a high end nightclub with the space and distance needed for these.
For anyone that has not heard a large 250-300hz multicell I would suggest you hear one on a good playback system if you ever get the chance, they really do something that no other horns seem to do and may open your mind about what is possible with audio, a real treat, even if you are not aloud to bring them home.
No spouse to be concerned with, but they're just too big.Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiomind
Plug the length, throat and mouth area into Hornresp and it will calculate the expo flare frequency and then you can download all the details to build it either round, square, rectangular and choose the increment distance. Read the HELP file for all the particulars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiomind
GM
Not to stray too far off topic on my own thread but besides beside the 1803B being too big for most homes, the other issue with the 1803B and any of the other multicells that don't allow you to "see" down the center to the driver will get really annoying after a while.Quote:
Originally Posted by alancohen
This is not a problem for pa as I am using it but in home use it bugged me quite a bit. Personally I could not live with the 805 or any other multicell in a home setting that you can't see down the center cell to the driver, sounds like you are driving by a guardrail in a car if you move your head even slightly.
The 1505B allows you to see down the center for a better image and larger sweet spot. It is slightly taller than the 805B and has the same 500hz cutoff. The 1505B always looked more balanced to me than any of the non square multi cells, with only one more cell row and it really is sort of comparable in size to 805B but no where near the monster of the 1803B.
So anyway just wondering why not the 1505 for you?
Yes this is probably what I will end up doing. It will be interesting to see if Altec stayed true to the exponential flare or did anything different.Quote:
Originally Posted by GM
Although if I am going through all that trouble with Hornresp I may as well design a 250hz horn that you
can see the driver down the center....and I wanted to keep this easy! not!
i listen to 1505's at home all the time, they sound like pure surround sound. i also have 803's.. and like the tonal quality of the 300 hz horns better. so why couldnt one establish the flare from say a 203,803,1003 and copy the horn flare 18 times? for what its worth, the 1003's and 803's are the same flare, not different in the middle
You are losing me a little but I am interested in understand what you are saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by valhallax
1. I am guessing you like the 1505B having the surround sound effect with two speakers? (I do)
2. Yes the bigger horn covers much closer the holy grail of 300-3000 that the phone company
discovered was critical for intelligibility way back in the earliest days of sound reproduction hence
the much more natural tone and ease of matching up to those loafing along woofers.
3. What is a 203,803,1003? (too long to be a patent).
4. Just adding more cells to a 1003 will change the flare rate. Now I have never seen 1003
and 1803 next to each other are the cells the same size?
It would seem to me that having a centered cell right down the middle would make it sound more directional. Is there any empirical data to support the claim that the sweet spot is larger with this configuration?Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiomind
I think I would make a "1205". The 1005 is still just too wide for me, but I don't mind going a little higher. My room is long and narrow. Is the dispersion of a 1005 wider than an 805? If so, might hurt more than help in my application.
The more I look at this, I don't think this would be a difficult build. Any thoughts about wood selection? I think stiffness would be at a premium. I'm thinking 3/16" aircraft ply like this: FINNISH BIRCH AIRCRAFT PLYWOOD (METRIC) from Aircraft Spruce . I like that it jumps from 5 to 10 ply from 1/8 to 3/16". 1/4" would be too thick. The extra plys would help maintain stiffness at the throat end where the walls would have to be very thin.
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2013/01/27.jpg
BTW, here's a pair just up for sale: http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Altec-Lans...item2ec5d4e3d7
Thanks for the link to the aircraft plywood on you previous reply, don't know if I will use it but very cool! Didn't even know they sold stuff like that, I might need it for other projects though.Quote:
Originally Posted by alancohen
FWIW, getting the “airplane wing” shape is not that hard once you have plotted the interior curves for the individual cells. First, you build the individual cells with a consistent wall thickness. Next, you the build the vertical sections. The first step in building the vertical section is to lapp the cells so you get to zero thickness on both entry and exit sides. For each vertical section you would lapp two opposite sides of one cell for the center and one side of two others for top and bottom. The next step is to glue the individual vertical sections together and let them dry.
Now that you have the vertical sections assembled you lap them so they fit together in the horizontal plane. In the case of the 1803, lay each assembled section of three on the lapping surface and remove just enough material so all four corners zero out. After you have done that you can assemble the required number of vertical sections together to complete the multicell portion of the horn.
Simple really, all you need is more time than money and a bit of hand eye coordination.
Having seen a few different build pics I would say it is well within my capabilities, and yes simple, that is if I had the dimensions, looks kind of fun actually......now back to getting those pesky dimensions....Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh45
After doing a little research on the Hornresp program I really want to copy a factory horn as
several people had commented that Hornresp is only a starting place and does not really tell
you how the horn will sound.
I would imagine the factory design probably had quite a few tweaking hours on the design that only comes from listening......and tweaking...and listening...etc. darn I kind of wanted that 250hz cutoff 15 cell with the driver throat visible in the center..hmm sounds like a Vitavox might fit that description but then I wonder if it would like the Altec 290 I am going to be using as much as an Altec horn??!!!!!..........can I win here? Big 15 cell Vitavox horns with Altec drivers any one here tried it? Love to hear about it if so.
Maybe the people who sell them on ebay have some info on building them. They might not be willing to share but its worth asking.
15 Cell Multicell Horns for JBL Beyma Altec | eBay
Hmm, as a general rule for HIFI/HT, rising on axis speakers should be toe'd in, including multi-cells, so using 'looking down the throat' as a primary design criteria makes no sense to me. The biggest problem with the large multi-cells is one normally can't sit far enough away for the cells to blend to a reasonable size point source in the HF.Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiomind
I had 805s for awhile and toe'd in they provided the kind of 'tight' pattern control its design implied. The 1005 has a wider horizontal 'sweet spot' and the 1505 has an even wider horizontal and vertical one, just as they're size/shape implies, so contrary to popular theory, the closer one sits and/or the wider the 'sweet spot' desired, the larger the horn needs to be.
My room at the time was quite large with a ~28 ft listening distance [Lp], so the 805 was ~ideal. My current room/LP ~ideally needs stacked 805s, so not going to happen. If I build anything, it will be a DSL Synergy concept horn to get both the low cut-off and desired pattern.
GM
True, but expo is expo and for sure the 805 is pure expo and I was told by those who should know that all the Lansing/Altec multi-cells are expo, though at least the 18 cells have different shapes to get the desired polar response. The 'magic' is in the terminations and adapters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiomind
GM
Have you heard the Synergy?Quote:
Originally Posted by GM
Some inspirational pics.
CH1505WBWL
Yes, there are wood 1803's that are always on ebay by the same guy and he is trying to get almost $7000 with no luck for a quite a while. It is what convinced me that this is a worthwhile effort to make my own. I don't believe he has ever sold a pair, at least not on ebay for that price.Quote:
Originally Posted by mah
I have seen Altec factory tar/metal 1803B's go anywhere from $1000-$2000 pair although I have not really watched the price for these that long and a single 1803B sold on ebay for around $450 (with $400 shipping though).
As nice looking as the CH horns are, his prices seem to be too high as none have sold. So anyway, the market speaks and says that $7000 is too high for a wood set of 1803's as the same guy can't even get $3500 for the 1505B after quite a long time of listing both horns.
Just an informal survey to those reading, what should be a fair price for some 1803B's in wood?
*Remember how much work these are to do when you put what you think they should sell for in wood, no silly prices like "you would be willing to just pay for the wood", blah, blah but obviously less than $3500 and definitely not even close to $7000.
Also anyone know from what years and how much the factory Altec 1803B and 1505B sold for?
I've read somewhere that the "going rate" for Altec multicells is $50/cell. That number might be dated, but the 1003s I linked to on ebay are going for that much...sans throats. Like you say, it doesn't matter what people are asking for them; it only matters what people are willing to pay.
In my mind the value of the attactiveness of the wood is offset by the authenticity of having real Altecs. To me it's a wash value-wise. I would lean toward real Altecs if I was buying and not making my own. Real Altecs will always hold their value if you don't damage them. Wood ones will never be worth what you paid retail for them.
Hi There,
1803 guy here. :)
Just to answer a couple of things. First, all cells in the 1803B are identical. It's their configuration that makes them seem different. Second, as already mentioned, the 1803 is massive even in comparison with the 1505. The 1505 is probably better for home use but if you really want to be crazy, I'll see if I can find a way to measure the 1803's so you can do a take off. This will not be easy as they are hanging in the speaker room so if you say yes Audiomind, I want you to promise you will build them. I would love to see another build thread. The Petter Persson thread over at diyAudio was absolutely fascinating. His method of using rings that he slid down the horns to act as clamps was a stroke of genius. The finite detailing at the throat must have taken an incredible amount of patience. That was true craftsmanship. My hat was off to him.
$50 a cell would $1800 for a pair of 1803B's. Not to far off what I saw the last pair on ebay sell for, that seems like a good rule of thumb gauge.Quote:
Originally Posted by alancohen
As an audio investment there is no question the factory 1803B is a more prudent purchase.
I would venture to say, if done correctly the warmer sound and looks of a wood version would be worth
any slight loss if the retail price is not too crazy like say... $2500 a pair to someone who is actually using them and not keeping them in a garage or basement. I would consider them like "wooden sculptures".
My idea would be to make a pattern of one cell cutting out some sort of separate thin cardboard for each side of th inside walls. (maybe something like the large white foam sandwich pieces you can get at a craft store that go behind picture frames).Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal Weldon
But the real challenge is the throat. I am sure there is an easy way to make a copy with some sort of casting materials that could be put inside.
Unless the guy on ebay will come down to $2500 from $7000 I am building them myself so that is a guarantee, they will be built, they already have a loving home.
S'up Cal :). That's some juicy information that the cells are all identical. I would think from a prudent manufacturing perspective that that should be the case. If I had a dollar to bet, I would wager all the **03 cells are the same regardless of how many. Same with the **05s etc. They just add more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal Weldon
Also, given the entry points are square as are the terminal openings, I'd bet another dollar that all cell walls are the same, meaning one template of the curve and length, along with the ID of both ends would be all that's required to build all the cells.
Like Audiomind mentions, the throats are a different matter and would need to be modeled.
It's a shame that the pics of Petter's build are not hosted any longer. I tried to PM him through DIY to see if he still might have them saved locally, but his mailbox is full and not accepting any more mesages.
Hey Alan,
You are correct in all points about the horn cells so all you have to do is get one side right.
We're not sure why Petters photos disappeared but I have left a note in that thread for him to maybe do something with his mailbox. I notice he was active as of a couple days ago so hopefully he will look in. I am highly reluctant to use my mod powers to attain his email address so let's just leave it where it is for the moment.
Audiomind, I agree using the foam core from your local dollar store is the way to go at least to start. We have been having a tom of fun experimenting with the Cornu style cabinets. Without the foam, those would be beyond many of our means. So what's it going to be, the 1803? I can give you all the dimensions of the waveguide as well if need be.
Let me rethink this. If you made all 4 sides the same you would need 45? mitres. That might be hard to do even with the clamping rings. You might want to go with a top and bottom that overlap the sides for ease of cutting and assembly. Either way, that doesn't change the actual measurements.
Exactly! :Thumbs up:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal Weldon
All cells are identical,just different lengths(805-803,etc..) ... If you make a jig for constructing one cell you will be good to go. Look at this photo you can see all the cells stacked on top of each other on the table.And what looks like a jig at the end of table.For sheet metal though.You can also see all the soldering irons at the end of table as well.
Click on the photo it is expandable.
LANSING MANUFACTURING
Ah, good catch. I was planning on doing 45* miters. Either way, I probably wouldn't be using clamping rings. I would build a jig with outside formers that everything would squeeze into. Basically a big mold/clamp. The downside is I would only be able to glue up one at a time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal Weldon
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2013/01/28.jpg
And considering all the shapes and bends of various Altec throat assemblies, it doesn't appear a perfectly direct soundwave path is mission critical:
http://altecpro.com/pdfs/vintage/Spe...ar%20Horns.pdf
Is that true? The only measuring thing I have with me at the moment is in cm and the mouth opening of the 1803 cell is 20.5 cm or about 8 inches. Does anyone have another horn they could check?Quote:
Originally Posted by Altec Best
I like the chart on page 2 that shows you just how big the darn things are.
I will take many photos as well if I am doing the take off. I will email those directly as I can't post them all here.
IMO, an important detail to keep in mind is the thickness of the cell walls where the cells will come together at their throats. Ideally, each cell will need to be carefully sanded at the throat end to a thickness as close as possible to the thickness of the tin. The better sounding multicells i've heard(and i've only heard a few) had been carefully hand sanded to a nearly knife edge at the throat junction such that there's no surface left to reflect energy back toward the driver.