GPA "Classic" alnico's to tame highs on Synergy horn

I moved this post from the "1803B plans available?" thread because it was so long and off topic but I think it deserves more talk on its own.

Anyone replying please don't take offense to my passionate late night rant below but tell me your thoughts on alnico versus ceramic and if you think they would tame the highs on the Synergy horn with those who might have experience using alnico on the Synergy/Unity horns.

By the way GPA is making almost all the Altec drivers in alnico again with the "Classic Series" and for what I think are very reasonable prices lets talk about those too versus other new drivers available today.

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Originally Posted by GM

but for me the three way DSL Synergy horn is in a league of its own except for its too bright/sharp HF; so yes, I’ve auditioned most of the DSL products since I’m only ~45 min. away.
GM

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Now the harshness on the HF of the Synergy touches on a much larger problem and really gets to me because I think I may know what some of the problem is.

I am going to high jack my own 1803 thread for a few paragraphs but I want
to get this off my chest

I would love to hear the Synergy with crossovers tuned up for a good new alnico GPA 802, I believe that is all they need (plus some tiny alnico mid drivers) they would be the cherry on the cake.

I hate to be a snob about this and this may sound really harsh to some but what I am about to say below really needs to be said more so the manufacturers get the message and some people get the hearing aid they need.

So now, the people that can't hear the difference an alnico magnet makes stop reading now, go to a doctor and let the doctor tell you how much of your hearing is gone. I am not joking, at least put on some high frequency test tones (found on web or test cd, tone generator ,etc.) through some head phones and see if you can't get over 12K.

If you can get out to 18K+ like me (not bragging just a fact) maybe there is something else I am not understanding but I still feel sorry for you because for as long as I have been in the hobby alnico has always sounded better, usually smoother and more detailed to me with great tone all at once. Alnico magnets are a thing of beauty in the sound world and for those that say they can't hear it does make me a little sad, I feel they are missing out.

For years I worked at a speaker reconer and constantly tested equivalent alnico/ceramic drivers with the same diaphragm, never once...ever did I choose a ceramic driver over an alnico version of anything, woofers included

So after testing and listening to over maybe $30,000 worth of compression drivers (no GOTO, ALE or super exotics just normal stuff) both new and old I can safely say I Hate (with a capital "H") nearly every last one of the pieces of crap that I have heard made today (a few exceptions should be the GPA alnico classic series alnico drivers (virtually same as old Altec production) and maybe one or two I don't love but don't hate either)....did you hear that people, I am saying virtually all compression drivers made today are lame big time, especially those extra harsh no low end neo magnet ones those tone deaf engineers try to pawn off on us spouting their rocket science credentials as proof the newer drivers are better.

Well my ears say no way, where the hell did the tone go? Forget all your silly etched detail give me back the real sound of something like a good alnico 802 with charged mags and fresh 10 watt aluminum diaphragms over anything I have yet heard in current production.

This even includes alnico TAD's and their fake sound. That also means plastic diaphragm garbage any other driver with plastic in or around the diaphragm driver (you need better horn, crossover and electronics to tame the harshness not any weird sounding plastic crap).

BMS is worst offender to me, some people seem to like the junk though, not exciting at all, even if you like the plastic diaphragm stuff, I warn everyone not to buy that pricey BMS coaxial, it sounds just plain wrong...I had such high hopes for it too.

Ok, I will calm down for a second and say I kind of like some of the progress that has been made making cheap drivers good with shorting rings, fancy diaphragm patterns, finite element analysis, etc., a Selenium D220ti for only $50 makes a great super tweeter on a short horn crossed above 5K!

D220ti doesn't really need eq from 5K up, yes it is virtually flat from 5K to 20K on almost any horn! it embarrassed some way more pricey drivers from around 3K-4K on up but this 1" driver does not solve the Synergy "edginess" problem in fact I would guess it would even sound a little more edgy than what ever Tom D. is using these days and D220ti has a sorry sounding tone below 4-5K.

But anyway the D220ti is a great bargain and it really is a good $50 driver if it is all you can afford but the GPA alnico Classic series 802 is only about $250 brand new, alnico magnets and everything!

A new GPA 802 will out class the D220ti by a large margin if it is exactly like or even similar to the original Altec 802 alnico (I'm pretty sure it is exactly the same and looks a little nicer too, as most readers here know the original Altec engineers are making it with original machines, etc, etc.)

Wow! I really apologize folks for my rant, hope I only pissed of corporate peddlers of substandard sound products please tell me to shut the hell up if you so desire.

Alnico responds to power differently. As does Neo. I prefer the 802 to the newer ceramic drivers, partially due to it's lower bandwidth.

If you get a chance, listen to Alnico TADs with the aluminum frams from Radian. Different and a bit more mellow.

For mid, I still like the big Alnico 288 G/H the best. I agree on the Selenium 220 with one caveat...not so good when driven to breakup. I hate titanium fram breakup artifacts. I did live sound, where drivers almost always hit breakup at some point.

The BMS 4540ND is their best one incher for Hi-Fi. Not sure which you listened to.

I tried the D220Ti, since everyone said it was a giant beater. It sounded good for a $50 driver, but it put a faint "tinny" sound on music, which worked on rock but wasn't appropriate for other music. I'm guessing that's the sound of its titanium diaphragm.

A friend has BMS4550s on 511Bs. They sound really good to me.

I certainly won't tell you to shut up. Different people like different speakers, it's just a fact of life.

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Originally Posted by Old Guy

Alnico responds to power differently. As does Neo. I prefer the 802 to the newer ceramic drivers, partially due to it's lower bandwidth.

Yes exactly! thank you! and just because any certain magnet has an equal or greater gauss rating does not by any means bring in the fact that each of these magnets types are like springs with different compression rates. It is quite a complex reaction going on there

Not many talk about this phenomena and it need to be addressed.




If you get a chance, listen to Alnico TADs with the aluminum frams from Radian. Different and a bit more mellow.

Yes have had heard many Radian diaphragms, although I did complain about the plastic edge, sometimes they are the only choice available for a reasonable price (replacing TAD diaphragms) or driver that doesn't have any original phragms available plus and they do sound smooth, maybe too smooth and lacking a little tone and detail but nice and easy to live with. For instance the JBL uncoated titanium diaphragms are pretty harsh, the coated ones, not too bad, so yes I would take Radian in certain cases.

For mid, I still like the big Alnico 288 G/H the best. I agree on the Selenium 220 with one caveat...not so good when driven to breakup. I hate titanium fram breakup artifacts. I did live sound, where drivers almost always hit breakup at some point.

Just a pointer from myself and my other friends with years of experience in live sound. Forget using 1" drivers live under 5k unless you do quiet gigs or maybe have 48 db slopes to sneak down to 3k.

I put together a system for a buddy using D220 ti's on a 24db slope at 5k on up so they are basically almost a super tweeter. No harshness ever, just very detailed sound at extremely high volumes, amazing. Just because the factory says a driver can go down to a certain frequency does not mean you should do it.

You need to look at the distortion curve or just listen at the driver limits for a few seconds full rated bandwidth to hear why not.

This is the fatal flaw of the Econowave crossing at 1200hz with a D220ti. It works most of the time until a good peak comes along and sounds harsh.


The BMS 4540ND is their best one incher for Hi-Fi. Not sure which you listened to.

I was referring to the 4592ND, a shame it didn't work so well, I really wanted it to.

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I have Altec 288-8K's . They sound great . They ( IMHO ) are one of the real under-appreciated drivers in the HiFi world . They sport a ceramic magnet . Altec did a great job with the sound of this driver .

I do hear a difference between ceramic & alnico woofers ( thinking JBL here ). I prefer JBL's SFG version of the ceramic magnet . I feel ( it actually ) kicks ( or accelerates ) differently than the alnico equivalent ( as well as sounds cleaner ) .

Generally,

I put more weight ( when choosing a driver ) in the mechanical makeup of the diaphragm versus the magnet type ( for hifi usage ) / something like 80/20 .

I also give much more weight to network design than thinking about magnet considerations .

I consider capacitor choice ( for the HF leg of a crossover ) more important to spend my time on , than magnet type .

Also , amp types are a more important consideration than magnet type .

And so on .

( Obviously ) YMDV !

:)

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Originally Posted by fpitas

I tried the D220Ti, since everyone said it was a giant beater. It sounded good for a $50 driver, but it put a faint "tinny" sound on music, which worked on rock but wasn't appropriate for other music. I'm guessing that's the sound of its titanium diaphragm.

Totally agree with you assessment of D220ti. I drilled about a 3/4" hole in a 1.5" superball and line the hole up so you could see down the throat to act as a diffuser near the edge of the mouth on a Pyle PH714 90x40 horn for my friend to stop the beaming.

The good part is it also seemed to take that metallic sound away at the same time it stopped the beaming. I think the extra edge in the sound was helpful to maybe "push" the sound through the extra diffusion created.

So there is hope for the D220ti to smooth out the sound with the right horn.


A friend has BMS4550s on 511Bs. They sound really good to me.

I certainly won't tell you to shut up. Different people like different speakers, it's just a fact of life.

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Originally Posted by Earl K

I have Altec 288-8K's . They sound great . They ( IMHO ) are one of the real under-appreciated drivers in the HiFi world . They sport a ceramic magnet . Altec did a great job with the sound of this driver .

I do hear a difference between ceramic & alnico woofers ( thinking JBL here ). I prefer JBL's SFG version of the ceramic magnet . I feel ( it actually ) kicks ( or accelerates ) differently than the alnico equivalent ( as well as sounds cleaner ) .

Generally,

I put more weight ( when choosing a driver ) in the mechanical makeup of the diaphragm versus the magnet type ( for hifi usage ) / something like 80/20 .

I also give much more weight to network design than thinking about magnet considerations .

I consider capacitor choice ( for the HF leg of a crossover ) more important to spend my time on , than magnet type .

Also , amp types are a more important consideration than magnet type .

And so on .

( Obviously ) YMDV !

:)

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If there is a place for ceramics I would say subwoofer land might not be a bad use and yes ceramics seem to have a tighter thump usually compared to its alnico equivalent . The higher you go with your woofer, I feel the more need you have for the alnico. Mids alnico for sure. Highs and extreme highs, I am again a little more open to non alnico here.

I do like alnico very much but I would like to say you are correct there are many much more important factors that the magnet type. Alnico is the icing on the cake.

The diaphragm and phase plug design are absolute huge factors and the alnico pales in comparison but when all is sorted out I want icing on my cake.

Audiomind, be aware I did live sound probably longer than you have been alive. You are expressing a lot of strong opinions others are not going to agree with. You need to back off and express it as opinion only.

You might want to research the forum a bit and find out more about your conversation partners.

Regarding ALL speaker choices...as I have said, it's a system composed of speakers and electronics. I suspect some speakers may sound better on some electronics.

Since none of us could possibly live long enough to try ALL possible combinations, best to talk about combinations you like rather than declaring one option to be the absolute.

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Originally Posted by Old Guy

Audiomind, be aware I did live sound probably longer than you have been alive. You are expressing a lot of strong opinions others are not going to agree with. You need to back off and express it as opinion only.

You might want to research the forum a bit and find out more about your conversation partners.

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Ok, I have now calmed down a bit since I made this thread but there are two issues at hand here on my thread starter so let me clarify a little more in a different manner.

1. My preference for alnico is one which I have a very strong "opinion" about and yes I will agree it is an opinion for anybody not realizing it.

Sorry if it is strong opinion but I believe working at a speaker reconing shop for years and using my own personal funds to buy drivers, borrow drivers and test as many drivers I could get my hands on should carry some weight to have a strong opinion? I did say at the end of my rant to tell me to shut up if you so think so I don't have a problem with being told to cool it.

2. Now here is one of the "facts" that got me all worked up to start the thread in the first place. It has driven me nuts to no end to hear people say there is no difference in sound between the alnico and ceramic versions of a driver using the same phase plug and diaphragm

This is where I might could step on the toes people off that can't hear that well possibly and I apologize and do not mean to harp on someone with a handicap as there is nothing they can do about it and I now realize it may get people upset some to find out they can not hear as well as they thought.

Two groups of listeners

1. I want to know is it that some people really not hearing the difference because of a hearing deficiency. It is fairly easy to test your ears but I wonder how many do it?

2. Does the person have financial reasons for saying there is no difference in sound and shove the customer with a ceramic? This one is the one that really gets under my skin as the people who say there is no difference and know they are lying where as group #1 is innocent and may really not hear a difference.

I have noticed in the past 5 years or so a huge surge in the use of alnico on all type of high end audio products, even phono cartridges.

It is my opinion that a high end speaker maker like Danley should offer a top model with mid and highs of alnico, cost can not be blamed as a factor these days with GPA selling a 1" alnico for $250 retail.

Ok, if you think I am still out of line let me know.

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Originally Posted by Old Guy

Regarding ALL speaker choices...as I have said, it's a system composed of speakers and electronics. I suspect some speakers may sound better on some electronics.

Since none of us could possibly live long enough to try ALL possible combinations, best to talk about combinations you like rather than declaring one option to be the absolute.

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Now I did refer to getting other things in the system correct first in post #7 and I will interject my opinion again that I do believe alnico is the top choice for a system of top quality where everything is well sorted and max resolution and tone is desired.

You do bring up a good point though that in certain lower quality systems sometimes you might want that ceramic magnet to cover up problems and if you have done live sound as long as you say you should know really well what I am talking about.

Although since it is my "opinion" that alnico top choice for a magnet structure,
why waste time trying to get the system right with any other type of magnet
if you are going for the best? ( I assume most want the best sound but I may be wrong.....!??!)

Just food for thought.

You don't seem to allow the possibility your opinions might ever be wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Old Guy

Audiomind, be aware I did live sound probably longer than you have been alive. You are expressing a lot of strong opinions others are not going to agree with. You need to back off and express it as opinion only.

You might want to research the forum a bit and find out more about your conversation partners.

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Old guy do you think the poll is a little over the top? Now that I look at it again it may be a silly idea.

I have never done a poll before but it may be helpful to get opinions to see if my opinion on alnico has any merit with a user group which has most likely tried both.

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Originally Posted by Old Guy

You don't seem to allow the possibility your opinions might ever be wrong.

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Understood point taken.

Now what would be your position if a scientific analysis was done with everything being equal in the system except for the ability to change magnets. Then very detailed high resolution measurements taken, FFT, etc.
of each structure.

Do you think my opinion could turn to fact if the alnico produced a result that reproduced the source more accurately than the ceramic?

I actually don't know if the alnico would out measure the ceramic but some day I will find out. Maybe someone already done this, I would imagine it is locked up in a corporate filing cabinet though.

Don't know the answer to your rant, but I have an EQ for any annoying sounds and I'm not afraid to use it and a pack of Piezos for my hearing loss.

VH, I actually turned off my EQ, Just using the amp controls now. As far as Alinco vs Ceramic I have no opinion. I've only heard my 802's that are part of my 604C's. I will say this, You can't get them to distort...at least I've never got them to, and it was LOUD!!!! crazy loud....ear bleeding loud.

FYI, Last night I put a 3" wide strip of cardboard across the front of the cabinet, right over where the horn is. The sharpness went away and the soundstage tripled!!!

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Originally Posted by Audiomind

It is my opinion that a high end speaker maker like Danley should offer a top model with mid and highs of alnico, cost can not be blamed as a factor these days with GPA selling a 1" alnico for $250 retail.

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Perhaps you have confused "High End" and "Hi-Fi." The Danley line is not for the Hi-Fi market, it's pro and mostly for stadiums. Tom and I have discussed the Hi-Fi market several times, he would certainly like to go there, but the bread and butter of the company is pro sound. "Maybe" if Danley ever gets into the Hi-Fi market, you'll see drivers that are aimed at that. Right now that is not the focus.

I too have no opinion concerning alnico versus ceramic. However having owned several pairs of D220 TI's on both 811 and 511 Altec horns for me the 802 G's are far superior. If you mean to say this is true because the D220 TI's are ceramic and the 802 G's are alnico, I would find doubtful. Far too many other design parameters that must be taken into account to attribute to overall sound quality IMO. Sorry if I missed something here....

Ask Tom Danley about his designs, you will get informed answers from him!

Contact Us | Danley Sound Labs | Danley Sound Labs, Inc.

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Originally Posted by Audiomind

Understood point taken.

Now what would be your position if a scientific analysis was done with everything being equal in the system except for the ability to change magnets. Then very detailed high resolution measurements taken, FFT, etc.
of each structure.

Do you think my opinion could turn to fact if the alnico produced a result that reproduced the source more accurately than the ceramic?

I actually don't know if the alnico would out measure the ceramic but some day I will find out. Maybe someone already done this, I would imagine it is locked up in a corporate filing cabinet though.

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Your tests would mean crap.

If the other parts of the transducer are optimized for Alnico it has an advantage. If optimized for ferrite, it would have an advantage.

One thing Altec engineers learned quickly is that you can't just change the magnets. Early ferrite versions did not sound as good.

While I prefer Alnico, what I don't do is make extravagant claims based on limited knowledge like you display. I'm way older than you, have seen a lot more. Slow down and smell the roses.

I have no issue with you saying what you like. Saying other things are bad, especially without knowledge, crosses the line IMHO. Learn more before you make some of the statements you make, better yet, just talk about what you do like and forget it from there.

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Originally Posted by Audiomind

Now I did refer to getting other things in the system correct first in post #7 and I will interject my opinion again that I do believe alnico is the top choice for a system of top quality where everything is well sorted and max resolution and tone is desired.

You do bring up a good point though that in certain lower quality systems sometimes you might want that ceramic magnet to cover up problems and if you have done live sound as long as you say you should know really well what I am talking about.

Although since it is my "opinion" that alnico top choice for a magnet structure,
why waste time trying to get the system right with any other type of magnet
if you are going for the best? ( I assume most want the best sound but I may be wrong.....!??!)

Just food for thought.

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since you mention this i'm wondering what the audible differences might be.


none of my (non internet) friends who have pro altec in their homes have ceramic mags, that i know of.

what few altec speakers i have are alnico.

except for the 755's.

My opinion and my opinion only... Some may agree and some may not. I generally prefer alnico over ceramic for most setups I've used. The alnico just sounds sweeter to me for mid and tweeters with MY equipment combos. I am a guitar player and this is also true for most guitar speakers I've owned and used in the past. I've not been so fortunate as some others here that own altec alnico magnet woofers. I can't have an opinion on something I've not heard or used but I'm sure they are excellent. Better than ceramic versions? Probably from my past experiences but I don't know.
There is a LOT more to the whole sound than just alnico versus ceramic. Too many combinations to just say that one is always superior than the other in every situation / combo. I've had very good sounding speakers that were all alnico and all ceramic. Certain speakers just sound better with certain amps, etc. It's one of those strange audio things. Some speakers are a match made in heaven with certain amps and sound crappy with others. I'm a firm believer that one shouldn't get too caught up on specifications or what material is better than others, etc. I DO take other peoples opinions in consideration, especially ones that are older and have more real-life experience with the equipment in question. Experience is way more important that what a piece of paper says. Sure specifications give an indication of performance but that's about it; an indication. I let my ears and mind tell me what sounds best regardless of what someone or something says it should sound like. I've heard speakers with claimed flat response across the spectrum that sounded terrible and lifeless. I've also heard speakers that looked ragged on the specs but sounded way better than predicted by looking at the print. Take it for what it's worth; it's ONLY my honest opinion and maybe not yours.

Just thank (insert your God here) that we have had the plesure to own Atecs. Even my guitar speaker based Altecs sound great. Like I posted in an AudioKarma thread, "Just like some Harely's or Corvette's are better than othes, there is no such thing as a bad sounding Altec."

Another "opinion" on Anico vs. Ceramic....
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