Santiago Mods

Long time lurker, first post. Got bit by the audio bug back around 1973. I recently picked up a set of 878B Santiagos. I also have a set of 511B horns with 808-8A drivers + N501-8A crossovers. I like to listen to classic rock loud. This set up will go into my garage/man cave. What changes should I expect if I swap the 511 for the 811 horn + crossover?

I am spinning vinyl. Amps include: Crown K2 (strictly bass LF duty), Hafler 9505 (2) SS, homemade 2A3 SET. Pre-amp is a homemade tube 12A7. I also have a Rane 22 active crossover a Bozak N106B active crossover (6 db slope) leftover from my Concert Grand speakers. This was modified from 400Hz to 500Hz crossover freq. I have a pro EV 18" sub I can throw in the mix.

Anyone have experience bi-amping these units? Should I keep the Santiagos original and stack the 511B's on top? Thanks in advance for your responses. I have enjoyed reading the great advice from all you regulars.

The 411 does not have a lot of mid, so changing the 511 out for 811 is a bad idea. Biamping could help. The 411woofer really needs a bigger box.

Hi Old Guy. The Santiago has an 811 with 800Hz crossover. I am considering swapping in a 511 crossed at 500 Hz. or potentially keeping both horns in some manner.

oops. was thinking of a different box

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/...rs/9846-8a.htm

yes then the 511 might be an improvement. A large ported box seems to work for that woofer. GM posted info here a while back.

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Originally Posted by Old Guy

oops. was thinking of a different box

9846-8A

yes then the 511 might be an improvement. A large ported box seems to work for that woofer. GM posted info here a while back.

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OG the 411 was developed for sealed enclosures.. Wouldn't that be a better option for that woofer ?

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Originally Posted by Altec Best

OG the 411 was developed for sealed enclosures.. Wouldn't that be a better option for that woofer ?

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That's where we see the bulk of em for sure.

But(there's always gotta be a "but").............. the ole fella's spot on. It was quite a while back IIRC. GM worked out a large displacement ported box for the 411.

Altec also used it in a VOT "type" ported enclosure in the 9861.

IMHO, keep the Santiago's stock. Extensive mods would be necessary to house the 511B's. Remember, they aren't as wide as the 873 Barcelona. That used the 411 down low, with the 511B horn up top, and crossed at 500hz.

I got a chance to audition a prototype 9861 during development in Anaheim for the Japanese market. Left a lot to be desired in the mid/upper-bass area, crossing a 411-8A @1200hz to a 902-8A/811B for midrange, if I recall.

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I got a chance to audition a prototype 9861 during development in Anaheim for the Japanese market. Left a lot to be desired in the mid/upper-bass area, crossing a 411-8A @1200hz to a 902-8A/811B for midrange, if I recall.

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Seems from the specimens "out there" that they eventually loaded them with 416's. I'd guess that made a significant midrange improvement.

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Originally Posted by bowtie427ss

GM worked out a large displacement ported box for the 411.

Altec also used it in a VOT "type" ported enclosure in the 9861.

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I must have missed that thread as I don't recall it... Thanks Bowtie !

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Originally Posted by bowtie427ss

That's where we see the bulk of em for sure.

But(there's always gotta be a "but").............. the ole fella's spot on. It was quite a while back IIRC. GM worked out a large displacement ported box for the 411.

Altec also used it in a VOT "type" ported enclosure in the 9861.

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Not wanting to come off as a total 'newbie' to the site, I did some searching based on all of your feedback. Found this:

Originally posted by GM:

"10.34 ft^3 net/Fb = ~21-18 Hz (depending on boundary and/or room gain), 32"h x 25.5"w x 22"d, driver at extreme top, 5" dia x 6-11" long vent 4" up from the bottom (all dims i.d.). Line at least the top, one side and back with 1" acoustic fiberglass stuffing down to just above the vent, though of course you may want more density depending on how well constructed the cab is."

I was starting to wonder if the 411 had any redeeming value which begs the question, what was Altec thinking when they designed it? Nowadays, I am not motivated enough to build custom cabinets. I think I will remove the 811 horn and reseal the Santiago, then biamp with the 511.

I have seen some posts recommend at least a second order slope (12db). Why not flatter (or steeper)? I will play with various slopes and xover frequencies until I get the sound I like but would appreciate any thoughts on this aspect.

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Originally Posted by Altec Best

OG the 411 was developed for sealed enclosures.. Wouldn't that be a better option for that woofer ?

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I had the same reaction,AB. GM changed my mind.

If a fella didn't know better, he might think the 411 is a cousin to the LE-14 and LE-15, they're nearly family in terms of performance/parameters.

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Originally Posted by TubesNhorns

I was starting to wonder if the 411 had any redeeming value which begs the question, what was Altec thinking when they designed it? Nowadays, I am not motivated enough to build custom cabinets. I think I will remove the 811 horn and reseal the Santiago, then biamp with the 511.

I have seen some posts recommend at least a second order slope (12db). Why not flatter (or steeper)? I will play with various slopes and xover frequencies until I get the sound I like but would appreciate any thoughts on this aspect.

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What was Altec thinking?
That's what I said when I restored my 9846s. Getting the 411 to match with the 511 seems
to be a challenge. Bi-amping with a 12db active slope and using the 30904 attenuator was the best for me.
I used 24db for a while but I could identify a dividing line between the horn and woofer. Once that idea
got in my head, it wouldn't go away until I changed it. Spacing your horn farther away will make it worse.

Do your units have the 30904 attenuator and the 21597 diaphrams?
The 21597s are delicate and crossing them at 800 helps protect them along with the attenuator..........................

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Originally Posted by bowtie427ss

If a fella didn't know better, he might think the 411 is a cousin to the LE-14 and LE-15, they're nearly family in terms of performance/parameters.

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I believe an ex-JBL guy did the design work while at Altec.

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Originally Posted by Old Guy

I believe an ex-JBL guy did the design work while at Altec.

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Was it Bart Locanthi?

Didn't i read somewhere recently that he did a short stint at another speaker manufacturer(Altec?) between his JBL tenure and his work at Pioneer/TAD?

EDIT: I had to have a bit more caffeine and a session with the logsplitter, then it came to me. Cetec/Gauss is the company Mr Locanthi worked for briefly before going to Pioneer/TAD, not Altec.

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Originally Posted by Old Guy

I had the same reaction,AB. GM changed my mind.

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OK Thanks ! I read the post that TubesNHorns posted from GM.

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Originally Posted by TubesNhorns

I was starting to wonder if the 411 had any redeeming value which begs the question, what was Altec thinking when they designed it? Nowadays, I am not motivated enough to build custom cabinets. I think I will remove the 811 horn and reseal the Santiago, then biamp with the 511.

I have seen some posts recommend at least a second order slope (12db). Why not flatter (or steeper)? I will play with various slopes and xover frequencies until I get the sound I like but would appreciate any thoughts on this aspect.

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Greets!

The 411 was designed to meet the performance needs of the times same as any product, yet still somewhat backwards compatible and why it?s suitable for a large vented alignment, especially one driven by a high output impedance that dictates an acoustically large cab tuned to Fs if max LF BW efficiency is to be realized.

To mod the 878 cab for a 511, the easiest is to seal off the horn cutout and flip it upside down to keep vertical acoustic offset to the practical minimum with the 511 on top. For this reason, just perching the 511 on top isn?t technically a good plan unless the listening distance is far enough away for the horn to appear as being very close acoustically to the woofer.

Perching the 811 on top of the 511 has some merit in theory as Cal Weldon has done on top of a pair of A7 cabs. Since the horns must be attenuated so much due to the 411?s relatively low efficiency though, the extra XO point may not be worth it unless you need the extra HF horizontal dispersion it affords.

Since the cab will be a bit larger [net Vb] acoustically, it will have a slightly lower Qtc [higher F3], so will in theory have a bit ?tighter? LF response, though without an A/B comparison it may not be obvious due to the room?s acoustics contributing so much to a speaker?s perceived tonal balance.

?Textbook? 2^nd order slopes are a good compromise between complexity, power handling [driver protection] and distortion plus long before TD alignment became the ?next big breakthrough? in speaker design it was found that even order slopes makes it easy to design in time alignment within the ? WL standard empirically determined early on in multiple speaker system design by simply reversing the HF driver?s polarity, though of course with digital delay one can easily/quickly align most any oddball/extreme offset layout, slope order.

The big problem though is that for it to work properly acoustically there must be at least an octave of ?flat? BW on either side of the XO point, which severely limits its location without carefully matching components and/or using some form of EQ.

WRT woofer/horn combos, there?s the added problem of the point source [woofer] having a 90 deg phase lag Vs a compression horn?s, so this must be either accounted for by proper vertical offset and/or use an odd order on the horn and even order on the woofer.

With the Rane then, you should have no trouble dialing in an XO, horn CD EQ, timing offset [TD] that yields whatever horn vertical lobing offset is required to ?beam? the HF to your ear height/whatever, so no need to be limited to any ?textbook? solution, though spacing it up off the floor as much as practical to keep from needing excessive lobing is normally a good plan plus getting the woofer up to chest height can add a bit of the visceral impact of a live event.

GM