-
I've got a question for y'all, potentially OT. Many people seemed to be incredibly dissatisfied with Alan Davis's run on the X-Men, and I was wondering: does anyone have any insight into what the general gripe was about his work? I didn't read very many issues of his; I know him primarily from Excalibur, from JLA, and from D.R. & Quinch (which I happen to think is sheer genius--don't ask.) I simply don't understand what people were so damn offended by--the couple X-Men issues I saw certainly weren't his best work but they didn't strike me as particularly awful. Anyone have any ideas?
I know this don't have much ta do with Nightcrawler; I'm asking here cuz I know a bunch of you are Davis fans as well, and I can depend on intelligent responses from you--over at Wizard, all I get is, 'are you on drugs or something?'
-Rex
-
See, it'd make sense to me if people were only complaining about his writing. But they bitch about his pencils too! Some guy over at Wizard was trying to tell me that Larocca's a better penciller than Davis, as though this were the most self-evident thing in the world and I was an idiot for thinking otherwise. That's really the part that baffles me.
And it's good to see you to, my friend!
-Rex
-
Hey Rex! http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/smile.gif
Nah,Davis'pencils were great.I have to admit that Im one of those individuals that was disapointed with the writing though.But I agree with BAMF! the the first few issues were pretty good.Then came Kavanagh.*shivers*
------------------
`~`~`Dragonlady`~`~`
Who finds Nightcrawler very sexy.
-
I 'returned' to the x-men in Davis' run. I remember really enjoying it. I didn't feel like nitpicking because for me it has just a nostalgia trip, but sometime around the shattering story, I got hooked again. I have to say though, that twelve thing was very dull.
There's always people who bash the creators. I think there's an element of jealousy and also attention seeking. I was just reading someone bashing claremont and calling anyone who likes his writing idiots and worse, and his post was full of misinformation that I suspect was deliberate. I'm disappointed in cc myself, but I don't think he's gone from great to sucky like many people think. It the editorial interference that marrs the stories. Lobdel, Davis and CC all were hampered by it. but its no use trying to explain that to many of the attention seekers on the net.
-
Nice to see ya REX LUSCUS!
Hey I'd like 1st crack at this because I actually wondered the same thing. It seemd to me as well that a lot of fans vilified Alan Davis for his last stint on the X-books. Baffling to me, because while I agree that his run wasnt up to the par of some of his past stuff, for the most part I actually enjoyed his work. O.K. so maybe 'The Twelve' wasnt all that great but I thought the 'Magneto War' was outstanding!
I may be the wrong person to ask though, because i'm such a HUMONGOUS Alan Davis fan.
I think a part of it may have been similar to the complaint that some people have with Claremont's current work. For todays fan weened on Fox's X-MEN cartoon and Lobdell/Nicieza X-MEN ( and in NO way am I taking anything away from either of their runs on the titles )maybe Davis' stuff was just a little to wordy and cerebral. Or perhaps part of it was that age-old case of Marvels' editors suffocating the creative energies of it's talent. Instead of the Writer/Artist having free reign to create, they end up just hacking out what the Editors want them to.
It'd be interesting now though to see Davis back on one of the titles. With Quesada seemingly bucking the old trends in regards to Editorial Control I bet Davis would REALLY get a chance to do some of his best work!
BAMF!
-
Exactly SPATULA GAL...I think people need to understand just how hard it is for creators to produce quality stuff under those kinds of editorial conditions. Let's see...after Claremont's initial 16 yr run there was Nicieza, Waid, Lobdell, Kelly, Seagle, and then Davis. Almost ALL of them left citing how impossible it was to work under the microscope of the Marvel editors.
REX, DRAGS i'm a BIG fan of Davis' art as well. Artistically he is a fantastic storyteller with a very clean and polished style. It may be that his art is just a little to 'Old school' for some of todays younger, raised-on-Liefeld-&-McFarlane-Splash-pages fans.
BAMF!
-
I too am a big Alan Davis fan. I think his pencils are great. I love his style, it's so clean, and while it's not too cartoony it's got that feel to it. I think his writing is best if it's kept light-hearted. His Excalibur runs were great, and though his recent X-Men run wasn't fantastic, it was more readable than some other x-writers.
http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
~Award-winning designer of Norway's lovely crinkly edges.~
-
I wouldn't do this on the WW boards as I would be instantly slated but I know you guys won't do that and instead break it down into discussion. That's what makes this board so cool.
So here it is, loud and proud : I don't like Alan Davis. I can't say I know too much about his Excalibur days, so you've got me on that one, but I really didn't enjoy his run on X-Men.
He took two of the most exciting stories for years (Magneto War / Twelve) and didn't deliver. All through his run I would be so excited, and everytime I would be disappointed. There was never the big climax in either of these stories that they deserved. The final conflicts just seemed to be missing.
I can see how the ages of apoc must have been pushed on him from above, but they were still dumb, and it was only in Cable 75 where we actually got to see anybody square off with the big blue monster.
The whole space thing was a waste of time, nothing progressed in the story and what he did to Marrow was unforgivable, She looked ridiculous and ruined her whole image.
As for his art (again X-Men only) the only character he draws well is NC. I find his overall line work too thick, he uses far too many blacks on peoples faces that don't seem nessessary, too many people have their eyes closed and the whole thing just felt cluttered.
Sorry guys, infact I'm not sorry, I don't like the guy. He's just not my bag baby!
------------------
Keep It Safe In The
Kitchen!
-
WoW, I was surfing around the pg 2 topics ( geez, I remember when this place was only 1 topic old! http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/smile.gif ) and only just now stumbled accross the MIT miesters' last post in this thread. Hey MIT it's cool, I know Davis' Art n Writing style isnt everyones cup of tea! Although I have to say that his last stint on X-MEN really isnt indicitive of his best work.
For a better example of Alan at his best I
recommend:
#1.)Davis wrote and pencilled an extremely well done WOLVERINE Graphic Novel some years ago. I think it was called BLOODLUST. Very impressive story and art.
#2.) His pencils from EXCALIBUR's # 1-16 and his now legendary 2nd stint on the title as writer and Artist from EXCALIBUR's # 42-69. MIT check out ELWING's 'EXCALIBUR # 42' topic as a great example. CLASSIC Davis.
#3.) Not sure if your into the DC Universe at all but just before his ill-recieved X-tint Davis wrote and pencilled an amazing limited series for DC called JLA:the Nail.
The storytelling is truly fantastic!
there's also his Marvel UK stuff and his short lived Clandestine title. (Check out the Clandestine/X-men teamup)
It may not make ya a convert MIT but at least this'll give ya a better example of his true talent! http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/smile.gif
BAMF!
-
Let's hope poor Mit is able to read this message sometime soon http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/frown.gif
I agree, BAMF! Plus, his Avengers stuff looks fantastic. I've never read Avengers in my life, but I may just pick up #38.
-Rex
[This message has been edited by Rex Luscus (edited January 07, 2001).]
-
I'm kind of with MIT on Davis' art. When I first saw it it didn't really appeal to me all that much. I don't know why, but I don't really enjoy his art as some more recent artists...just my view on it.
-
Cough ... splutter .... *The Mit's poor Mac jump starts back into action* .... Hey Guys! No, I'm afraid she (being my Mac) isn't fixed but I am getting much better connections this weekend. I only got disconnected twice trying to write this!
I was wondering when some one was going to reply to my little rant about Mr Davis. And surprise, surprise it was the Mighty Mr. Bamf! that came with the answer. Like I said I don't know much about the guy so I really want to check out that Wolverine TBD, when Wolvy is written well he truly is the best (If anyone out there hasn't read the Barry Windsor Smith story go get it now!!)
Davis' new work on the Avengers looks interesting, Perez got me hooked on the Avengers so it will be interesting if Davis can keep me! His pin up in the last issue was okay but I still feel he could learn a lot from his peers.
While many of his collegues have adapted their work in the last ten years due to the HUGE change in comic book art (just compare the Kubert brother's work for starters) I feel that Davis has done very little to adapt his style. You could compare him to John Romitra Jnr. and say that he is a great story teller, but I still feel Romitra (and Ordway to come to that) are very much better than him.
I will hold my breath that Busiek will bring out the best in Davis as he did for Perez and that they find an inker who can cope with his style. Until then I will hold judgement. Here's hoping!
------------------
Keep It Safe In The
Kitchen!
-
I can see where you guys would get y'know grr about a writer or artist. I used the read CATWOMAN and then the artist Jim Balent left. He ROCKS art wise in my opinion. <CATWOMAN[/i] sucks now that he's gone. It just doesn't feel right. Now I read Top Cow stuff. (Does anyone else here read Top Cow? They ROCK!) WITCHBLADE and FATHOM being my faves. WITCHBLADE's gone thought some changes. The artist started doing his own book Fathom. So I can see your points on this. You likeit, you don't like it. Whatever.
-
(Yo! Welcome back Mitty!)
-
I'm probably a little late with this, but here my two cents. With the exception of muscledudes like Capt Britian, Davis's people look too guant for my tastes. NC looked downright anorexic in Excal. The writing was top rate though; so until now I have kept mum about what I thought of Davis's art. I can tolerate art I don't like if the story's good. On another tack, I think Davis got a bad rap for his x-men run. As long as the repressive editorial situation remains at Marvel, nobody's gonna be able to write any good x-men stories. Nobody.
------------------
It's all you need in superheroes and haute cuisine:
Culinary_X
-
BAMF-
to add to your story list, Dont forget Davis drew the first battle between Wolverine and Sabertooth that was depicted in comics. It was during the Mutant Massacre. Can't remember the issue # 21?. This is the first time I saw art by Davis and I was hooked.
-
Anorexic? Sure he was thin, but that's taking it a bit far. And when I think of anorexic, I think of X-Men Annual 10. Or those back-up stories in Classic X-Men. I like Alan's art because he never just drew Kurt as the skinny, pathetic one.
Kahlana
-
I agree. Kurt was way too thin.
-
I can honestly say I like Davis' Kurt more than any other. (Except for Yu and sometimes Larroca) Davis was the first, that I remember, to draw Kurt in a style where you coud actually see his face. Sometimes Davis gets a bit carried away with cheekbones, as I see he is doing again on Avengers, especially Vision, but I don't think Kurt was that skinny. I was always annoyed by artists who drew him as if he couldn't stand up straight. Davis' Nighty didn't have that problem. Also, some artists draw him as really short and small. In his bio, he's around 5'10," taller than Wolverine. But sometimes he would look dwarfed by Logan. He is an acrobat, and while they aren't reed-thin, he shouldn't be a huge bulky guy like some of the other males, either.
Each to their own, but Davis' Kurt was the one I fell for and he will always be my fav.
http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
------------------
~Award-winning designer of Norway's lovely crinkly edges.~
-
Actually when I said he look anorexic, I was talking mainly about his face. I guess I just don't find that bony look attractive.
------------------
It's all you need in superheroes and haute cuisine:
Culinary_X
-
The Nightcrawler I fell for was, oddly enough, John Byrne's. He definitely didn't draw him with normal human posture -- there was something rather feline about him, actually. And I liked the way he did his face, even if it was mostly shadow. He always drew his upper lip in shadow as though he were standing above footlights, which I thought was a cool effect. And he wasn neither too skinny nor too bulky. It's ironic, then, that Byrne is the one responsible for downplaying Kurt's role in the series.
-Rex
-
I gotta be one of the herd; I LOVE Davis' art. Maybe his X-Men run wasn't his best, but his Excalibur work was fantastic. I think the thing that I appreciated most was his attention to detail. You can look at each panel and find SO MANY little things in them! One that springs to mind is an Excal ish (can't remember the number) where Kitty tells Lockheed to scorch Feron if he doesn't do as she says. On one of the last pages, if you look at Lockheed, he has a smile on his face (looking particularly proud of himself). Feron is scowling at Lockheed and a burn mark is on his bottom. Details like that are classic and tell so much more about a story without any words!
-
Hello mit! http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/wink.gif
Im with Slar.Davis' Nightcrawler has always been my favorite.Like Slar said he was the first to draw Kurt with visible facial features instead of this big black blur with glowing eyes.He also drew Kurt tall like he was supposed to be.I dont think he was too skinny I think he was just right.I also liked how AD portrayed Kurts gestures,body language and facial expressions,they really matched Kurts personality down pat I think.Davis always drew him with confidence too.
My least favorite Nighty artist iiiss*gulp*.........Byrne.Dont get me wrong Byrne was one of my favorite artists growing up.I loved how he drew the rest of the X-Men and his Avengers and FF stuff but I couldnt warm up to his Nightcrawler.I think he drew him too small and skinny as opposed to Davis,like a little cat,like he was trying to make him into the X-Mens pet or something.He drew him so helpless looking.I really didnt like how he drew Kurts facial features either.Just my humble opinion.Ok Im prepared for whatever you have in store for me. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/tongue.gif
------------------
`~`~`Dragonlady`~`~`
-
DL, YOU WILL DIE NOW!!!
Just kidding http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/tongue.gif I can definitely see your point. That may have been what I liked initially about Nightcrawler, that he wasn't especially 'superhero-y'. But I hate the mascot/fall guy/comic relief thing. Didn't Arcade refer to him once as 'the X-Men's pet demon'? And if I remember correctly, he needed Scott to come along and save his ass.
-Rex
-
*yipe* http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/eek.gif
We were pretty much on the same wavelenghth on artists up until this point Rex(though I do like Byrne I just dont care much for his Nighty)We both hate Booth and Love Davis.Well,diversity is what keeps a friendship alive. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
------------------
`~`~`Dragonlady`~`~`
-
-
Yes, he did call Nightcrawler the X-MEN's pet demon.
-
Actually Knighty,quite a bit of people at the Wizard board like Booth.Scarey isnt it? http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/wink.gif
------------------
`~`~`Dragonlady`~`~`
-
No Booth!
Yep, Davis rules. Makes me want to go buy that Avengers right now! Cyke did save his blue rear, but didn't Nighty get Arcade in the end? Or am I thinking of a different issue? Yeah, that's what I meant about him looking so small sometimes. He's not a little-bitty guy.
http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
------------------
~Award-winning designer of Norway's lovely crinkly edges.~
-
Yeah, he went and trashed his controll booth and scared the crap out of him, by teleporting right in front of him and yelling boo.
-
Interesting observations everyone!
I remember that scene 'DANCER! It was pretty funny how Arcade flipped out. BAMF CENTRAL I'd forgotten about that awesome Davis drawn ish with 'TOOTH and WOLVIE going at it for the first time. Danke!
I was actually first introduced to Nightcrawler through Byrne's interpretation. I was a big fan of his work back then: the stuff he and Terry Austin did on Uncanny was incredible. Despite the 'face perpetually in shadow', and his obvious and gradual downplaying of the character, I really enjoyed his interpretation.
That is until Alan Davis and EXCALIBUR came along. After having endured months of NO Nightcrawler thanks to the Mutant Massacre, hearing the news of Excalibur was like a comic book re-awakening for me. Of course I HAD to read up on everything I could find about this new title! REX and DRAGS' posts reminded me of one Marvel Age magazine interview with series Artist Alan Davis in particular. In the interview Davis talked about 'standing Nightcrawler up', and 'not having him crouching all the time' like an animal, but instead standing like a man. He also spoke of losing a lot of the shadows from Kurt's face and letting you get a chance to see what he really looked like...
I wasnt much more than a youngun' at the time, but I remember becoming an ALAN DAVIS fan right then and there! http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/smile.gif
BAMF!
-
That's my boy...I probably wouldn't be here now if it wasn't for Davis' Nighty!
http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
------------------
~Award-winning designer of Norway's lovely crinkly edges.~
