Mooney

Interesting cover story in MD's 9/2003 issue with Keith Moon. The tension between technique and feel are communicated which many have argued about in here.

Keith was the anti-metronome/getting it perfect drummer. As I was reading, several well established cats came to mind that fit into the "perfect" category. Thomas Lang was interviewed as the local technical sheriff and commented on the aspect of passion over technique.

My feel is there is only a handful of Keith Moon's that are ever fortunate enough to make a living playing drums. It's hardly an endorsement for today's drumming youth. In this same issue, Ron Spagnardi reflects on how much the drumming industry has changed since he was a kid in the editorial. It was a nice look at how the choices have radically changed from 1953 to 2003 if you were a 10YO wanting to play the drums.

My take...if you have the God given talent to play so naturally and land in a great band that gets signed, sells tons of records, enables you to buy a house and put some bucks in a safe money market account for the future...then go for it! Skip the technical side, skip the schooling, play from your heart...BUT, if you ever want to get outside your "inner circle" some drumming skills might be needed more than just playing what "feels" good for one particular style of music. The article itself said Moon never played a ballad in The Who becasue he couldn't play 'em. And, in the same issue, there was another article on the difficulty of grooving at a snail's pace (p.88).

As I look at Moon's career, he needed some basic disciplines in his life outside of just practicing paradiddles.

That said, I loved what he did in The Who!

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ July 19, 2003 01:41 AM: Message edited by: PocketPlayer ]</font>

That's true, but once you're rich and famous, take some lessons! I was watching a video of Radio Head in concert and, I'm sorry, but those guys suck ass. The guitar sounded horrible, the singer can't sing, and the drummer did as little as humanly possible (they could have simply set a drum machine to play a generic rock beat). And I don't mean he was tasteful and "minimalistic," I mean he was just lame.

Since these guys are rich and famous, they can afford to take some lessons and learn their instruments. They're clearly more interested in the rock and roll lifestyle than in perfecting their craft.

My roommate went out on a date with a drummer a while back (uh-oh). He said he never took lessons because it would spoil his creativity. That's like a writer refusing to learn new words because it would spoil his creativity. Actually, the larger your vocabulary, the more creative you can be. Musicians who say otherwise are just lazy.

I'm not a Who fan, but from what I've heard I never liked Keith Moon's playing. I think you could find thousands of rock drummers who play like he did.

Journey rules.

This is classic T-Bo stuff. I need to compile a "HOD Best Of" for potty breaks! [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

"once you're rich and famous, take some lessons!"

"...they could have simply set a drum machine to play a generic rock beat. And I don't mean he (the drummer) was tasteful and "minimalistic," I mean he was just lame."

"My roommate went out on a date with a drummer a while back (uh-oh). He said he never took lessons because it would spoil his creativity_______________________ (fill-in).?

"Journey rules"

Dude, that's just funny stuff!

I will say this, the bands that seem to keep popping up on Conan O' Brien, Craig Kilborn, Jimmy Kimmel...man, I have to say I find it hard to believe this is the polished stone. I mean, what were these bands sounding like in raw form before they got signed? [img]eek.gif[/img]

You ain't whistlin' dixie, my friend. Are bands getting younger and younger (and worse), or am I just old?

Journey does rule. Best rock band ever.

"I'm not a who fan, but from what I've heard I never liked Keith Moon's playing. I think you could find thousands of rock drummers who could play like he did!

Oh dear! Let's put Keith Moon INTO CONTEXT shall we?! Of course you could find many drummers who play like he did in THIS day and age, but remember that The Who started out in the early 60's. You are listening to his playing based on nearly 50 years of developement and knowledge. Think of the type of pop drumming that was around at the time, with The Mersey Beat etc. Drummers were playing the most basic of patterns and simply keeping the beat throughout the song. Rock wasn't even around then.
Keith Moon was without question a leader in the development and progression of modern drumming. FACT! No one played like he did before him. He didn't simply flail around the kit hitting everytning like a nutter, but had his own voice and style - something that very few musicians aquire. Think of all the clones out there today. His drumming was way ahead of it's time as he phrased with the melody (something that any good jazz drummer will do) and knew all the 'hits' and parts that the guitars were doing. He played his patterns and beats while at the same time catching all the different parts and filling in a truly unique way. I can only think of Mith Mitchell as an example of someone having the same approach at that time.
Keith Moons playing was the start of a new breed of drummers. He didn't copy anyone (the band were basically a group of spotty, sweaty young lads from Shepards Bush in south London!) and played what he heard. Of course you are all entirely entitled not to like his playing that's called being subjective, but realise that when The Who first came about, Keith Moons' style of playing was never heard before.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not about to band him as a genius, but it is without question that he was partly responsible for changing the course of modern drumming. Listen to pop tunes by other artists around 1965 and then listen to The Who. The drumming is utterly destinctive. He was (probably without even knowing it) incredibly musical set a benchmark in pop drumming.
Look at how drumming changed after The Who appeared. Other drummers started to fill more, kits got bigger and playing became more powerful. Keith Moon was to my knowledge one of the first to play double bass drums and to have numerous toms instead of the standard 5 piece. Rock drumming was born!!
Apart form Keith Moon, I would also say that Pete Townsend is one of the most underated musicians in modern times. His playing, writing, arranging and contribution to music should be IMO valued much more. Works such as Tommy had never been heard before. Rock Operas!! The music was unbelievable and stands up in its own right even now. His knowledge of arranging techniques and use of orchestral instruments in a rock context was beautiful. The guy was such a musician.
So..... that's the rant over with! Moon will always be remembered as being at the forefront of modern popular drumming. No one played or heard anything like him previously. His style was unique, uncompromising, musical and revolutionary. Stick on A Who track from the mid 60's and listen carefully to Keiths' drumming. Put it IN CONTEXT, he was one of the drummers that pushed the boundaries of popular drumming and you can still hear his influence on players today.

The End!! [img]wink.gif[/img]

Yes, I'll have to agree with Dazzler. (Dazzler, If a Yank like myself can voice his support for Moon here for a moment [img]wink.gif[/img] )
Kieth's playing was definitely not metronomic by any means, but if you listen to Quadrophenia, Who Are You, and alot of the other albums, I don't think there's been a drummer before or since that uses tom rolls so musically and dynamically as Kieth did. His unorthodox style in his youth developed into a signature style by the early 70's. Listen to Baba O'Riley.... I think if you keep in mind that this was a guy who was pretty unorthodox, and if you can get past the imperfections and listen to how his playing supports and adds to the music as a whole, you'll definitely find some brilliant points in his playing.
I'm still grieving that The Ox left us, and now there's only 2... [img]frown.gif[/img]

Yes, I'll have to agree with Dazzler. (Dazzler, If a Yank like myself can voice his support for Moon here for a moment)

I'm a Brit actually!! [img]wink.gif[/img] London born and bred! [img]cool.gif[/img]

WHO geri? [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]wink.gif[/img]

Good argument Daz!

As for Journey, if you want to see them live T-Bo email me. I still dig the band and Castronovo does an excellent job, always respecting Smith's signature fills. I feel Smith's work on Fronteirs is a rock masterpiece in simplicity, feel, power, and subtle ghost noting--his fills were well thought out (exact oppostite of Moon) but perfect for those tunes.

I found it amazing that Moon wasn't supposed to be able to articulate a double-stroke roll. I'm not a Who fan so can't recall if I ever heard him play a buzz roll or some doubles on the snare ever. I guess the same was true of Nigel Olsen early on as well. Again, if you play in one band or only play the same type of music, you can get away with that...so much has changed since 1973! I did like the simplicity of Bad Co's drummer--fit the band nicely.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ July 19, 2003 06:40 PM: Message edited by: PocketPlayer ]</font>

maybe im just from a new generation but dissing Radiohead who unlike many american alternative bands seem to be the only one's that GET IT and then mentioning Journey in the same sentence, can u say CHEESE ? YICKES(yes they are good musicians, but that's it, listen to Radiohead's "Ok Computer" or "The Bends", those are actual statements in terms of "modern genius"-waiting for someone to mention Floyd-and the answer is NO WAY JOSE)

as for Moon, again im not surprised people sum people don't get it aside from Dazzler, sure the guy is nothing compared to Weckl, Colaiuta, Donati etc, but he had something many drummers of this generation don't have, BALLS, just passion for the music, that's one thing u just can't question him about, yeah sure he was kinda sloppy and always rushed the ballads "Behind Blue Eyes"(actually according to legend the problem with that tune was that Moon always cracked funny faces at Pete and he always got pissed and therefore Mooney wasn't allowed on stage until his part came in)

As for the "rock musician" argument, this has always been present(the whole jazz players looking down on rock players)... I would say I share the same respect towards someone who just picked the drums as I would do for Vinnie. The difference is that most rock musicians don't have any "aspirations" or desire to "progress" beyond what they already dominate, this what I don't get, how can someone who's been playing for say 20 years get up and play the same groove/fills EVERYDAY, it's just boring, it doesn't matter if you're being endorses by Yamaha and looked up to by thousand of novive drummers, it just plain SUCKS!.

That doesn't apply to "all of them", look at a guy like Peart, he's proggresed-not so much from a language standpoint since he's gotten more and more simple as time passes by-but his body motion, grip and all the stuff he's work with Freddie that's discussed in "A Work in Progress"(PUN INTENDED)

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ July 19, 2003 07:42 PM: Message edited by: Bozzio ]</font>

I also wrote Keith Moon off for being sloppy. I recently heard a live recording of him and (In my best English accent) " He sounded like Bloody Jack Dejohnette ! " It was loose but right !
I've been checking out live footage of him since then.
He definately blazed another trail for us drummers to explore. His energy level was insane ! He actually thought he had super human power and it showed.

It didn't take long however, for drugs and alcohol to eat up his super human endurance.

Here's some more info on Keith Moon-
http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/Keith_Moon.html

"The difference is that most rock musicians don't have any "aspirations" or desire to "progress" beyond what they already dominate, this what I don't get, how can someone who's been playing for say 20 years get up and play the same groove/fills EVERYDAY, it's just boring"
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This is what happened to me 15 years ago. Ever been driving around, the radio blaring, and then go and reach to turn the thing on! That's the way I felt playing pop/rock music for so long. I felt like a 2 & 4 robot. It was my deal, but at the time I blamed the music. I did feel boxed in, like music death was upon me. It took a burnout, time away from my kit, a move to discover new music. believe it or not, HOD got me into Vinnie. Before stumbling onto this site, I just knew him from Zappa & Sting. How my life musically has changed since discovering HOD. A whole new world has opened up.

So, if you want to hear new music and your ears are ready for it, there's a big ol' world out there to keep things fresh. It helps to have buddies to hang with that feel the same way.

For all the Joey Kramer's out there, if it keeps you going, then keep on groovin' Maybe that's why Charlie likes jazz outside the Stones...he gets back to his roots. I really like what Smith says in the history DVD he just put out. All drummers starting out played jazz and then moved into other musical styles...there wasn't and country drummers, rock drummers, fusion drummers...there was just drummers. I do think Smith is right on when he says learning the foundation of the instrument by studying jazz allows one to move into other forms and styles more easily. But then, he is a bit of a chameleon musically speaking. Not everyone can or chooses that path and can pull it off convincingly. This is just a whole new age today. The options are so vast for a kid today in junior high thinking about playing drums. Sometimes simple and few choices is a blessing in the beginning.

As far as Moon goes, if you guys say so... But Journey still rules. Excellent musicianship and song writing and singing. Unfortunately, because a few of their hits were ballads, they've written off by many as a ballad band (aka cheesy). I have Journey in my head because I bought an old Tokyo concert off Ebay. Awesome.

The genius of Radio Head is lost on me. But, if you honestly believe they're that good, don't you think they'd be even better if they took some lessons and tried to impove their musicianship?

Hey T-Bo
I just got a 2 disc set of Journey live w/Smitty from '83 I believe. Did I get that from you??? I also just got Fronteirs & Beyond-the video from NFL films shot during their '84 tour. Interested in any of this? Email me privately if so.

what about ginger? [img]cool.gif[/img]

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Originally posted by Bozzio:
The difference is that most rock musicians don't have any "aspirations" or desire to "progress" beyond what they already dominate, this what I don't get, how can someone who's been playing for say 20 years get up and play the same groove/fills EVERYDAY, it's just boring,

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ July 19, 2003 07:42 PM: Message edited by: Bozzio ]</font>

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Good point.

I guess that comes down to, what you want or expect from life.. or yourself. Some people are achievers and the Drive to achieve more is like.... the carrot on a stick. You're always going forward but never getting that carrot.

Some people are fulfilled with the most basics of life. Monks in temples are a prime example of "What do i need or is really neccessary to make me feel happy or content"?

In some ways, people who you might consider as Plonders bozzio could infact have a happier life than those who are continually Unhappy with their playing, and have to keep themselves occupied or busy to feel as if lifes worth something like they're getting there. The Plodders feel they've arrived.

Its a bit like eating. You have a plate full of food, some people will feel content and stop when they feel full while others feel a neccessity to finish the plate even though their stomach has said....I'm full. Its satisfaction either way.

As for Boring.....what is boredom but a thought. Why cant people be content with 2&4 why is that so boring? it isnt...but people THINK it is.

We all seek change.

Cool points... I'll reserve my opins about Mooney for the moment; but I will say that Jrny's "Frontiers" has some GREAT Stv Smth drumming on there [esp the tune Frontiers itself, AWA Troubled Child, Edge of the Blade, etc]

I liked what Stv said about how most if not all drummers who were playing [in much of the 40's, 50's, 60's, & 1/2 of the 70's] were jazz drummers - or more simply, "drummers" period...
I actually came from the opposite side of the fence - classical/symphony to folk to pop to rock to fusion to jazz, & back around... i'm about to play "devil's advocate" here, but - it's funny how guys from the late 70's/80's on up til today become drummers w/out ever having had to play jazz in some form [& a travesty in some cases, i might add] - take it easy - i'm by no means the "jazz poe-leece" here!! [& i'm also not saying that some drummers out there who do not play jazz are not great at what they do, either]...
Just outta curiousity - I know he could play the mess out've studio "pocket" stuff - but could Porcaro drive the he** out've a jazz/swing band? [Never heard him do this]...

...I read somewhere in an interview that the Black Crowes' drummer was quoted as saying that learned to play the kit just 3 to 6 months b4 their 1st release [img]eek.gif[/img] ... now THAT, i will say, is QUITE ludicrous... he's either f'n w/ us - pullin' everyone's chain [private joke], or...
"only in America," "as 'they' say"....

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ July 20, 2003 04:03 AM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

I assume you heard the story of Creed's drummer?

All I can say is Jeffrey P could swing a pop groove like nobody, playing that jazz shuffle ala Sir Duke on Pamela off The Seventh One. The four studio cuts added off TOTO's; From Past-to-Present were hot, especially that ballad (Out of Love) Jeff played. IMO, the best drumming on any ballad EVER! All those four tunes were either shuffles or jazz shuffles played to PERFECTION.

The guy I thought who had the most impact from the jazz background to such originality was Ian Paice off Machine Head. Those fills are awesome...I would never play those tunes that way. Brillant recording!!!

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Originally posted by jonthibault:


The genius of Radio Head is lost on me. But, if you honestly believe they're that good, don't you think they'd be even better if they took some lessons and tried to impove their musicianship?

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">it's Radiohead man [img]wink.gif[/img] , as for for your question, I would say NO, simply because that wouldn't have any effect on their music, most of those british bands wouldn't like to get labeled as "proggresive"(if you've been paying attention to history there was a big "anti proggresive" movement against that music especially from England-the roots-and so many of those bands with the exception of maybe Porcupine Tree dispise it)

try to find any footage of them live, they're an amazing band, the whole atmosphere they create with the lights and the music itself is unbelievable(Coldplay seems to have stolen it sadly enuff)

As for Moon try to get any of the DVD's, Live at the Isle of Wight(*sp*), he's pretty loose on there but still great(he breaks 3 snares in an hour, unbelievable heheh)