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Well it looks like I've given up on my quest for all motor performance. I was taking a look at a couple of turbo kits (rev-hard, f-max, drag). I like the ease of installation on the Rev Hard kit but don't like the wastegate outlet and lack of an air cleaner. I spoke to Alan at RH in person and said I could customize the kit. How dirty does the engine bay get with the wastegate outlet in the engine compartment.
I like the F-max kit but it is a bit pricey. It does have a downpipe for the wastegate, and all kinds of goodies.
Which leads me to Drag. I cannot find much info or pictures for this kit. Is the wastegate open in the engine bay? What is the reliability of this turbo. Dynamic Autosports quoted me 4000 installed, with dyno tune and HKS wastegate.
Sorry if these questions are underpar. I've been doing so much research on all-motor and found the parts I have just aren't worth it. I have a complete Spoon Spec GSR-CTR/ITR conversion sitting right next to me. How would the CTR cams work on a turbo?
Mahalo.
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DRAG vents the wastegate to atmosphere.
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Ryan Earl
'99 Turbo SH
NTPOG - North Texas Prelude Owners Group
My Page
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$4000 dyno tuned with an HKS wastegate isn't a very bad price, it's not great either. Try and talk them down a couple hundred, they will probably do it cheaper.
The wastegate for the drag dumps towards the ground I believe, so it really shouldn't make your engine bay any dirtier. I assume this deal with the HKS wastegate has the exhaust dumping towards the ground also.
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The only closed loop wastegate i've seen out of the three would be the FMAX. Although this may be ideal for some of you, it has been dynoed to "lose" power. The DRAG downpipe for the wastegate works well. The first week with my gen3 kit, i hadn't installed the WG downpipe yet, thus scarring one of my fans. $4000 isn't bad considering they're tuning it and throwing in that very nice wastegate. Damn i should've picked up that HKS in the first place.
You figure with street rates here:
3500 (kit) + 500 (typically what most people charge for install) + 350 (HKS) + 120 (tuning) = $4470 for everyting
Not so bad after all, eh?
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1996 Acura Integra GS-R-T
Dormant for the time being, being prepared to boost 12 psi daily....
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you can get the drag3 for 2700. look around.
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94gsr, Drag3 and yellow paint goin on in april
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Looks like you know what you are talking about MINO. You got RevHard and FMAX covered.
DRAG uses an open wastegate, but it doesn't vent right into the engine bay. They give you a tube that points downwards and gets the exhaust out. I actually extended mine with a 1.5"-diam. piece of flexpipe to get it even further away. Dumping the exhaust in the engine bay gets really nasty and that is what causes turbo Honda engines to look so 'cooked'.
If you have any questions about the DRAG3 I can answer them. Post or e-mail.
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Mark - Darth Boost - Turbo Mafia
98 Pearl Black GS-R, DRAG Gen. 3 Turbo
13.2 at 114MPH (GTech/Pro w/Drag Radials)
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MarkC and cq,
I too am looking into the darkside with my 93 Integra. I'm having trouble deciding which "kit" is the best. Each time I think I've made up my mind, someone, "slaps me 'side the head" and makes me say, "hmmm, you do have a point." I'm totally confused! Please help. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/confused.gif
My 93 has an auto tranny and I am not looking to race it. I just want some more RELIABLE power to the wheels. I'm pretty much torn between DRAG Gen III and FMAX. I hear they both are great kits, but the FMAX costs about $1000 more. It does however have detonation and fuel management products included. What does the DRAG kit come with? Can you help me with the pros and cons of each and offer your best opinion? I also don't plan on boosting more than 8-9 psi on my tranny...ever. Thanks for the help guys.
Forgot to mention that I want to be able to keep my A/C and everything else that came with my car.
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--93teg-- It doesn't cost any extra to be nice http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/smile.gif
[This message has been edited by 93teg (edited February 10, 2000).]
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For your situation, i think the best bet is to go DRAG Gen3. Over the years they have much improved in terms of reliability and performance. Since you do not plan to boost high, it isn't necessary to use those additional injectors that comes with the FMAX kit. In my opinion, i would take a thick fuel rail with some meaty stock location injectors anyday over additional injectors. I remember someone posting about shooting fuel out of his blow off valve from his FMAX kit a year ago. Problems like that 'do' tend to happen when you place fuel like that. One of my friends had a DRAG Gen2 kit on his auto 90' integra. it ran consistent 15.0s and a a few 14.9s. not bad for a 4dr auto with 16" rims. months later he did develop slippage in his tranny. Suprisingly, the Prolong he put in it eliminated the problem http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/wink.gif. I think your best bet is to get the J&S if you're worrying too much in terms of reliability.
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1996 Acura Integra GS-R-T
Dormant for the time being, being prepared to boost 12 psi daily....
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if all youre worried about is a dirty engine bay then all you really have to do is run a pipe from the wastegate and either aim it towards the ground or you can actually have a pipe that goes from the wastegate to the downpipe ...
simplest way would be to run a flexible type pipe from the wastegate and just have it aim towards the ground .. probably next to the downpipe
or if you want to get intricate i've seen dumptubes from the wastegate tapped into the downpipe ...
93teg .. a buddy of mine has a DRAG gen1 kit on his auto 94LS ..boosting 5 lbs he ran a 15.3 .. the auto takes away alot of the fun of the turbo and your launches are gonna SUCK =) ... he used to run a 50 shot and pulled 14.7's all day
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turbob18C'd firstgenGSR
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Hybridturbo,
Have you seen where the Rev Hard placed it's vent for the wastegate? The vent is barely an inch over and facing the exhaust manifold. I guess the Drag kit already has this downpipe for their wastegate.
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hmm .. Revhard and drag manifolds should be the same since RH makes the drag manifolds. Does the RH kit include a little elbow that extends the wastegate out and to side?
Thats all you really need to run the dumptube....
I have a competition RH manifold (different form the one in the kits) and mine came with the elbow ..
Sorry I just assumed that RH and DRAG kits were similar in that way.... even if you dont have it you can call RH for one =)
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Hybrid,
I talked to Alan at RevHard and he wasn't aware that Drag was using their cast manifold. Drag attaches their Wastegate differently to the manifold. Drag has it upright, RH has it turned on it's side. Did you remove youre Ac and power steering for the competition manifold?
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For the Integra, the F-Max puts down a lot of power with closed loop. Like 244. I don't know how much the Gen3 kit does, but the gen2 did 241 with open loop. The F-Max plumbing for the Integra is much better than their plumbing for the Prelude which just sucks.
I don't like the additional injector setup which is why I'm dumping close to $2000 for a completely new fuel system. I have a built engine, so that's probably excessive for you. You don't have to get the addition injectors on the F-Max. Not getting those and the MF2 will save you probably $400+. I'd say get somewhat larger injectors (330-370s), a good fuel pump, a good FPR like the SX, tune it with EGT and a wide band A/F meter (and the J&S if you have one), and there you go. On the other hand, water injection is a really good idea with stock pistons. There are grits on top of the pistons that get heated up and cause detonation you can't hear. Sucks to melt pistons.
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Ryan Earl
'99 Turbo SH
NTPOG - North Texas Prelude Owners Group
My Page
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Last time I talked to Myles at RH he told me that they were making the DRAG manifolds .. but that was a good 2 years ago .. but anyways ...
I had sold my AC way before I turboed my car so I'm not really sure if the AC would fit with the competition manifold. I do have my power steering still though but its a tight fit because I have the turbo shooting upwards with the piping running up and towards the p/s and next to it and then back down.
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In the June 1997 issue Turbo did an article on a DRAG Gen2 kit installed on an integra gs-r. To its delight, it churned out 244hp@7psi with 92 octane. Now that i look at the FMAX site, turns out they put the same HP with slightly more boost and some octane booster.
Not so fair is it?
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Chris Q
96' GS-R-T
"Another victim of the darkside"
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The DRAG3 manifold is new for Gen.3 and very dif. than the RevHard manifold.
A long time ago Super Street installed a DRAG Gen.2 on a Gs-R and put down 268hp at 7psi. And don't forget that Import Tuner got 265(??) out of a 99 Civic Si with DRAG3 (280+ running open downpipe!!!) Anyway... That 265 or thereabouts seems accurate, since closing the loop on the downpipe is said to lose about 20hp. With that said. I am making plans to close the loop on mine. LOL.... I am making plans to reduce horsepower. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
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Mark - Darth Boost - Turbo Mafia
98 Pearl Black GS-R, DRAG Gen. 3 Turbo
13.2 at 114MPH (GTech/Pro w/Drag Radials)
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I think F-max wanted to design a kit that had power throughout the rev-band. I guess that compromised top end power.
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MarkC,
Do you get to keep A/C, P/S and everything else that came with the car with the DRAG G3 kit?
Also, does DRAG's kit come with a filter that attaches to the turbo?
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--93teg-- It doesn't cost any extra to be nice :)
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Well, closed-loop comprimises power. But open-loop is loud as fuck, right MarkC? I know another guy, Dan, in Austin with a greenish weird color Integra running 7psi on a drag2 open loop. He took it to a muffler shop to see about getting closed-loop and they were like, "No way. That ain't happenin'."
I hope the Gen3 is different for you MarkC http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/smile.gif
What would be nice is the optional to switch it between open-closed loop.
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Ryan Earl
'99 Turbo SH
NTPOG - North Texas Prelude Owners Group
My Page
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open loop is loud and F&%K and smelly as F*&K also .. I couldnt take the smell anymore and just plugged it up with a flex pipe .. now its bone stock quiet with a blow off valve =)
the boost has a different feel to it now...less sudden ..more gradual ...
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turbob18C'd firstgenGSR
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I've had a F-Max turboed B18C1 for about 2K miles now and I'm pretty happy with it. Like Heretic said, I opted to not get the additonal injectors and use other means of fuel control. So basically without the MF2 and the additiona Lucas injectors you have a kit that is comparable to DRAG or RH. The F-Max kit wastegate point straight up and has a dump-off that extends about 4" downward to let off exhaust. You can easily modify and dump-off tube so I don't think it's that big a factor.
If your kit does not come with an air filter then at least make sure the lay-out will at least accomodate one. You're gonna want it if you drive in the street. If you really look at all the turbo kits out there they aren't very different. You would be better off putting together a custom kit because then you can choose the components you like best. The one unfortunate thing that F-Max, RH, and DRAG do have in common is that damn Turbonetics Wastegate. If you go with the custom kit you can choose something else. My F-MAX came with the Turbonetics WG and now I gotta drop another $450 on a different WG. Sucks.
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1992 Old School Si Hatch
1995 Civic DX Coupe w/ Turbo B18C
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speaking of that damned turbonetics garbagegate ... have any of you heard of someone bringing it back to turbonetics for a refund of any sort? My friend had his turbonetics WG go out (spiked to 25 psi!!!) and it blew his motor .. he's thinking of calling them .. just wondering if anyone out there has stories or experiences with complaining to turbonetics themselves...
thanks!
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Whoa.... lots of questions.
93Teg, I got to keep all that stuff in my car. The only thing I had to modify was I had to replace the stock radiator fan with a slim-line one.
Heretic: You got it man. Closed loses power, open is loud as hell. Hey, I know that guy too. He has gone up to the track up here. And yup, I found an EASY way to close the loop.
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I know that's what did my motor too but I know I had boost spike.
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94 GSR Turbo (Built block and at Bensons)
