Way OT.. an afternoon with some Klipsch's.....

I went in to one of those old school audio shops today - repairs piled high, loads of junk and some rare jems, thrown into the mix..... tantilising stuff...

In for repair was a pair of Tannoy corner horns with big 15's lurking under perforated steel screens (I wished I could have heard them), and I got to feast my eyes upon a lovely set of matched Quad II monoblocks.

I had been curious to know if the owner had any Altec gear in his collection, but there was nothing I wanted. We got to talking about Altec, Klipsch, JBL, Tannoy etc and he invited me to listen to a pair of new Cornwalls from the Klipsch Heritage series. As a former Khorns owner, it would have been rude not to! (Like I needed an excuse!)

Well, we tried several cds and several amps (valve and ss) on these Cornwalls, and at first I was impressed. Then I noticed that the bass seemed boomy and to lack control, there appeared to be crossover issues in the mids and the was a real 'bloom' to vocals - quite coloured. I started feeling disappointed. I made a few suggestions and we changed out the front end, but the same issues came through irrespective. I would have loved to have had some silver cables to try. Occasionally, on uncomplex, well seperated music, they were quite commanding. But as soon as things got interesting, the Cornwalls fell apart.

I wondered if they hadn't had much playing time in store, but the owner said he had had them for three months or so and the had seen frequent use. If I worked there, I would definitely be running them solidly for a good few days to see if that helped.

Things got really bad for the Cornies though when we switched to a set of Klipsch RF7 II's that had been looming ominously in the background. I can think of no part of their performance on all the same equipment that was not far superior to the Cornwalls - except maybe a more slightly ''hi-fi-ee" upper mid presentation. Anyway the big RF's blew the Cornwalls to bits.

I don't know why I was upset. The price was the same. If I was in the market, i would just buy the RFs. But I wanted they old-world charm of the Cornies to shine through and lay waste to the modern stuff. But they didn't.

It is the first time I have wondered if I am doing the right thing in building my Altec 9 replicas. I know it is not an apples to apples comparison, but maybe the new gear is catching up, even surpassing the old stuff... it never seemed to be the case when I was selling hifi back in the late 90's - most gear was still aspiring to be half as magical as what had gone before - unless you were spending moonbeams.

Right guys, I need you all to remind me how much better 19s are than Cornwalls....... go!

Thanks for listening :-)

IIRC, in recent decades the Cornwall and Khorn woofer is a 'plain vanilla' Eminence design, i.e. a compromise design to work in either, though neither optimally. Regardless, there's an aftermarket variant available for the Cornwall, though it too has been found wanting over the long haul by some, so Caveat Emptor applies.

As 'westend' noted in your other thread, the cab's alignment has a lot to do with perceived SQ and what the [ML]TL alignments I recommend address and FWIW, of the folks that have compared both the M19 and/or one of the Iconic [846] variants against its MLTL variant have [much] preferred the latter.

GM

GM, thanks.

Please dont take this the wrong way, but I sometimes have trouble understanding your posts. I am clearly amateur.

Ok. Lets say I build an MLTL cabinet on your recommendation, which I am totally happy to do. Can you provide dimensions for me, or plans? I mentioned that I like the look of the 19. Perhaps I can work one of your designs to resemble the 19 near enough.

Give me the dimensions, I will trust you :-). I am quite happy to build a speaker that is the size of a refrigerator (no joke). I have the space. But as I said before I know nothing about xo design etc. So I would need a design that would work with common xo (ie zilch/altec/gpa design)..

Thank you sir.

You're welcome!

Yeah, I get that a lot............I need to attach an acronym dictionary to 'newbie' posters among other things. Anyway, I’m pretty busy these days, but will respond in the other thread as time permits.

GM

Thanks GM. Sorry if I seem demanding. :-)

Even Onkens look good to me. Saw a pair today, made by a friend using TAD drivers. Sadly they were not connected for me to listen to, but they have some amazing reviews.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pr...9=w583-h252-nc

My friend also informed me a mutual contact now owns Altec 19s - and unbelievably he is just up the road from where I am staying tomorrow. So I have an audition with 19s tomorrow! !!! Yay!

Coelacanth, I think you may be making a wrong turn. On the klipsch board many prefer the cornwall to the rf 7's. I ve owned 2 sets of cornwalls, one I modded which helped with the bass a lot, the other were factory. My 19's sound far superior. I would look hard at GM's mltl design that he did for Westend, that is a speaker I would love to hear. I am not bashing Klipsch here, amazing what they do with the drivers they choose. In fact I own a very large pair of klipsch copies. Good luck with your search!!!

Juniper, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.

No wrong turns, I dont plan to purchase either Klipsch. I was simply reflecting on my surprise at the disparate sound quality between the two. I have listened to many systems over the years, claim no expertise beyond this, but can say hand on heart that I am doubtful anyone would choose the pair of Cornwalls i heard over the RF's on that day....

Your comments, along with further reading, lend credence to the theory that the Cornwalls were not 'broken in' - or that there was a serious cable conflict. On the balance of probabilities, my vote foes to the former.

Seems a shame, notwithstanding, to have to consider woofer replacement / modding on a new, expensive speaker. If a company such as Klipsch is prepared to make major sacrifices in the interests of convenience, then I would question their commitment to the end user.

Hey, we all know this stuff goes on in manufacturing, but let's hope they take some feedback on the woofer issue and make a change for the better, so consumers don't have to.

The Scotia Bank plex in Montreal is equiped with K. VERY impressive sound!

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Originally Posted by Coelacanth

Juniper, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.

No wrong turns, I dont plan to purchase either Klipsch. I was simply reflecting on my surprise at the disparate sound quality between the two. I have listened to many systems over the years, claim no expertise beyond this, but can say hand on heart that I am doubtful anyone would choose the pair of Cornwalls i heard over the RF's on that day....

Your comments, along with further reading, lend credence to the theory that the Cornwalls were not 'broken in' - or that there was a serious cable conflict. On the balance of probabilities, my vote foes to the former.

Seems a shame, notwithstanding, to have to consider woofer replacement / modding on a new, expensive speaker. If a company such as Klipsch is prepared to make major sacrifices in the interests of convenience, then I would question their commitment to the end user.

Hey, we all know this stuff goes on in manufacturing, but let's hope they take some feedback on the woofer issue and make a change for the better, so consumers don't have to.

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I would bet that it's not Klipcsh"s decision to use a mediocre woofer just from a standpoint of greed. Truth is that most folks just look for concussive bass and a clear peaked top end when listening for quality in a speaker. Very few are critical listeners and very few have heard really good speakers. If KLipsch did any market study and surmised that using the Eminence woofer gets them approvals, the door would be opened for a change.

Example: I was at a meeting of an audiophile society where a pair of custom speakers were auditioned. They were driven with some of the best gear on the Planet. At one break, I asked another listener what he thought about the speakers--"No bass" were his first words. These speakers each had two 15" woofers, one firing straight and the lower tuned woofer down-firing. They were field coil drivers and were custom fabricated by the builder. They were a magnificent pair of speakers and the price reflected that---$40K. There was some bass.

I believe convenience rather than greed was mooted, westend. But point taken.

I will make a point of revisiting the Cornwalls next time I am in the city to see if their sound has developed any.

Most of us here are familiar with the term, "frequency doubling".

Years ago, my friend, the late Dr. John K. Hilliard, was standing around with some others like us and was heard to say with a gleam in his eye and a smile on his lips, when the subject of the Klipsch Corner Horn came up, "If you listen closely, you'll find that it not only doubles - it TRIPLES!"

Coelacanth I recommend you read some of Martin Kings Quarter Wave Length Speaker Design.. He has a Yahoo Group there were I'm a member he was offering his software (MathCad Explorer) free to his members.Not swure if it's still available though..It will help you with the MLTL design.. He's a very nice guy as well !

Quarter Wavelength Loudspeaker Design

Thanks Altec Best, I have visited that site but can never seem to get beyond the security code when applying to join the group. Will try again.

Send Martin an email I had the same problem when trying to join..He will answer you quickly and get you sorted.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Altec Best

Send Martin an email I had the same problem when trying to join..He will answer you quickly and get you sorted.

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Couldn't flick me a pm with his email could you? I cant locate it..... EDIT Scratch that, sorted.. Thanks

Everything you need is right here...

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/quarter-wave/info

Roger that... thanks... have sent an email.

I have owned all of the Klipsch Heritage line except the Belle. I have owned most of the speakers listed in various 'Top 10' speaker polls. The bass from the K-Horns powered by a low watt SET amp was lovely!

I have not yet owned any Model 19's so cannot yet comment from personal experience.

I have a set of Cornwalls subbing in for my Altecs that are down for modification. They are actually CornTecs as I am running the 511-B/808-8A for a mid. Not too shabby.

interesting enclosure for the 511 - where'd that come from?

Home made. Just makes them easier to handle and stack. The crossover is stripped down to L-Pad (attenuator) only.

Regarding the original premise of this thread, new speaker technology vs old, I don't believe there is a definitive answer. There are many other variables to consider i.e., type of amplification and music being two.

An analogy may be made to a guitar. Speakers can be like an instrument. Acoustic guitars range in sound quality and tone based on their construction. Electric guitars vary more based on their electronic components.

I owned Klipschorns in the mid 1980s and thought that they were the ultimate speaker at the time. They do feature the tremendous virtues of horns and compression drivers: dynamic range, efficiency and low distortion. Unfortunately they are severely time misaligned and used rather mediocre drivers for the most part. The good part is that the classic Klipsch products have "set the hook" for thousands of horn enthusiasts worldwide who have pursued the passion to a higher plane. Thank you Paul Klipsch!