My 19 build begins in earnest - H811b arrives....

The 811 I ordered arrived the day before yesterday - all the way from the U S of A to little old New Zealand....

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc.../2015/06/4.jpg

It is in very good condition - but not for very much longer... Tonight I will split the horn into its two original castings and begin adding 'shape' to the outside of one of these castings, making it more 'copy-able' for my router-based wood copying machine.... I will hopefully end up with four 'sides' copied nearly exactly, which will then be stuck together to replicate the inside of an 811b, and look a little different on the outside.

I will also make some moulds out of the halves while the horn is apart.

My darling wife has been a bit against the idea of an audio project, but we sat last night and listened to the tiny speaker from my Samsung S5, pressed up to the throat of the 811 - ok, lets face it, it was pretty low-fi - but that horn magic was very real and present. Imagine what they can do with real drivers? I asked... Now she is eager to find out..... :cool:

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Originally Posted by Coelacanth

The 811 I ordered arrived the day before yesterday - all the way from the U S of A to little old New Zealand....

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc.../2015/06/4.jpg

It is in very good condition - but not for very much longer... Tonight I will split the horn into its two original castings and begin adding 'shape' to the outside of one of these castings, making it more 'copy-able' for my router-based wood copying machine.... I will hopefully end up with four 'sides' copied nearly exactly, which will then be stuck together to replicate the inside of an 811b, and look a little different on the outside.

I will also make some moulds out of the halves while the horn is apart.

My darling wife has been a bit against the idea of an audio project, but we sat last night and listened to the tiny speaker from my Samsung S5, pressed up to the throat of the 811 - ok, lets face it, it was pretty low-fi - but that horn magic was very real and present. Imagine what they can do with real drivers? I asked... Now she is eager to find out..... :cool:

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I give you an A+ for the ingenuity of getting the Mrs. hooked into your project... Hook,Line and Sinker ! :biggrin2:

So, is this the official DIY M19 speaker build and do you still plan to just basically replicate it or a MLTL instead per here?: http://www.hostboard.com/forums/f700...-klipschs.html

GM

Before you get started take a look at this Yahoo Group by Martin King !

Quarter Wavelength Loudspeaker Design

Hi GM, I am still open to the MLTL thing, in fact I would prefer to go that way. Just been waiting for your input.. not sure if you are getting my emails? Perhaps not. I will go the 19 duplicate route if the mltl option is beyond my ability to resolve.

Anyone ever seen an Altec 405.5a horn? Well, here you have it!

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc.../2015/06/5.jpg

Note the grey-green area forward of the throat, no doubt caused by rogue abrasive soundwaves - I believe the previous owner may have owned solid state amplifiers and been a Celine Dion fan. :biggrin2:

But seriously, I wonder what caused that? Its over the paint, rather than paint missing...

The horn came apart very easily - all welds only superficial - barely penetrating the casting, so as soon as I ground back the bead, the two sides virtually sprang apart. The only notable exception to that was on the mounting flange, where the weld had to be hacksawed.

The halves are entirely re-usable and undamaged other than light grinding marks - and I cannot see why I wont be able to weld them back together if needed.

For now I have my 'mothers' to copy in timber. Will keep you posted, if on the off-chance y'all can forgive me for maiming a sacred Altec horn. Its for the greater good. The Greater Good. :biggrin2:

I am going to enjoy this post! Keep the updates coming!

Coelcanth it looks like there are small bumps that are on the casting I'm sure to line up the castings before they weld them...Am I seeing that right and are they in fact small bumps ? I marked them with small red circles can you confirm this ? Also does the other side have these bumps or just small indentations for the bumps to sit in ? Thanks for the info !

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2.jpg~original

You are correct. There is a small aligning nodule on one side of the casting, and a corresponding void on the other edge.

From what I can see, the two halves of the horn were cast in the same mold and are identical - there are matching imperfections on both halves that idicate this is so, and the alignment features tend to suggest this too.

If you can follow the logic in the above text, it shows that the two identical castings marry together perfectly when one is tipped up and sat atop the other.

Today, we would design the horn on a CAD program, and cut it from billet with a CNC mill to create either our master for molding, or just each individual piece we were making. The crucial inside shape of the horn here must have been hand carved originally (unless someone has another idea how this was done) so it will be hugely interesting to measure the shape for side to side consistency etc.

The aluminium is fairly low grade, very powdery. There is a part of me that wants to have the horn recast in bronze, for fun, and for 'art'. I have grown to find it quite excellent - and am starting to develop an appreciation for the technical skill and creativity that went into the design and creation of it.

Let me say that my plan to even COPY the horn will be no mean feat..... imagine the hours spent making it work in the first place. RESPECT.

Fascinating thread! An employee of Altec Lansing in the mid 1950s told me a funny story years ago (which I may have previously told here). A foundry in the L.A. area had been casting 811 horns in great numbers, and also welding the halves together before delivering them to Altec for painting. Some bean counter did not like the expense of the welding operation, and said that Altec could do it cheaper in house. Soon large piles of half-811s were deposited all over the factory, dirt clods still clinging to the parts from the casting process, and the in house efforts at welding proved unsuccessful. Before long the foundry was once again given the task of welding and things returned to normal.

Coelacanth, the initial throat portion of the H811b appears to have been designed to narrow the directivity of the high frequencies to partially equalize the on axis resonse. This is not a great solution for the falling power response of a compression driver, as the on axis response and reverberant field will vary greatly in high frequency content, which our brains interpret as unnatural. I would be tempted to model a horn similar to the 811 where the major flare portion maintains itself back to the driver aperture. The horizontal axis should (as designed) maintain the driver's power response to the limits of the straight horn walls, the driver's falling power response being EQed in the crossover, resulting in a more natural listening result. Just a thought, anyway.

Hi Steve. Thanks very much for your input here.

Firstly, I found this tiny (about 5mm long) maker's mark stamped into the horn - "WD Co". This seems to attest to Altec having at least for a time, outsourced the casting work....

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc.../2015/06/6.jpg

Re your technical observations and advice... I am not even close to having more than a very basic understanding of this stuff.. What I do have is curiosity and some skill with tools and equipment. If there is a better design, more suited to the GPA 902 driver I intend to use in this build, well, I am happy to build it. But someone would have to supply me with plans, because there is no way I could work it out myself at this point.

One of my plans however is to experiment with different horns once I have the 811 copies up and running (along with the rest of the system!), so I am happy to continue as planned with these.

I do appreciate the suggestions - and if you can point me to plans for any horn you deem more suitable, I will gladly take a hard look at them :-)

Check out the A300 radial horns in post #6 of this thread. There are also some comments on the 811 from Steve Schell in post #11.

I've been tossing around the idea of a wood horn for the 802 but, actually, I find very little wrong with the 811 for my listening habits. I have heard better horns that have a more dispersed presentation and a finer sound (large format drivers, to be exact) but the 802 is a damn fine driver and my 811's work all right for me. If there is a next iteration it may be a wood horn with the larger format drivers.

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Originally Posted by Coelacanth

Hi Steve. Thanks very much for your input here.

Firstly, I found this tiny (about 5mm long) maker's mark stamped into the horn - "WD Co". This seems to attest to Altec having at least for a time, outsourced the casting work....

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc.../2015/06/6.jpg

Re your technical observations and advice... I am not even close to having more than a very basic understanding of this stuff.. What I do have is curiosity and some skill with tools and equipment. If there is a better design, more suited to the GPA 902 driver I intend to use in this build, well, I am happy to build it. But someone would have to supply me with plans, because there is no way I could work it out myself at this point.

One of my plans however is to experiment with different horns once I have the 811 copies up and running (along with the rest of the system!), so I am happy to continue as planned with these.

I do appreciate the suggestions - and if you can point me to plans for any horn you deem more suitable, I will gladly take a hard look at them :-)

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Where on the horn is this stamp ?

I'll take a pic in an hour or so, but its on outside of the shell, towards the middle, behind where the central cabinet mounting screw hole is - it is present on both halves of the horn.

http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc.../2015/06/8.jpg

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Originally Posted by Coelacanth

Hi GM, I am still open to the MLTL thing, in fact I would prefer to go that way. Just been waiting for your input.. not sure if you are getting my emails? Perhaps not. I will go the 19 duplicate route if the mltl option is beyond my ability to resolve.

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Greets!

OK.......

?? I?ve only gotten one PM and I responded to it plus responded to your Qs in one of the earlier threads, so AFAIK, this one is all that?s left.

What's wrong with Westend's except done up in a stretched version of the M19?

GM

Hi GM thanks for coming back to me. I did send an email but it must have gone astray... The stretched 19 idea is spot on what I was thinking. I need some help with the interior box dimensions for the GPA drivers however. Could you be called upon to help there? I have the TS parameters from GPA, who assure me they are pretty close.....

Thank you Sir, and feel free to tell me to bugger off if I am asking too much :-)

Greets!

You're welcome!

Well, since you're already comfortable with the 19's width, depth, horn section, spacer/pedestal, nothing except the bass bin height changes along with the vent, bracing.

The driver will still be the same distance down from the top to preserve all of the aspects of the XO 'voicing' save one, so what?s the max height the centerline of the horn can be from the floor and roughly how high is ya?ll?s seated ear height?

GM

Thanks GM..

Very comfortable with the dimensions of Westends mltls, which he has provided on his build page and elabourated on via pm. (Thanks L!)

Happy to proceed with similar height - I guess I really just need to know if the GPA t/s parameters dictate something different to Westend's - given that he used original Altec drivers...

I plan to make the top hat tilt adjustable - even completely removable - allowing for different room / seating positions, and also so I can experiment with different horn designs.

I could also make the bass bin tiltable... so lets set the upper limit at 2.0m tall and work backwards down to reality :-)

Thank you good Sir.

You?re welcome!

OK, if the size of his is fine and doesn?t make the horn height too high, then just build it with the driver down 9? o.d. from the top same as the M19. Note that there will be no opening to acoustically couple the horn cab to the bass bin, so there must be some serious damping in the spacer cavity to keep it from ?drumming?, so consider filling the void with scrap knot, void, free wood, drywall or similar. This also helps to mass load the [ML]TL to the floor.

The cab is large enough to have considerable latitude spec wise and cover pretty much all the different 416 specs with enough room to spare to allow/need some form of EQ to flatten it out in room. With rare exception, all the cabs I?ve used/designed are technically too big based on T/S specs.

I currently don?t have access to the sim or my write-up, but just from what I found on his build thread you can add up to 6 ohms of series resistance before the cab starts getting acoustically small based on GPA specs, so plenty of tuning flexibility.

GM

Marvelous! It is decided then.... I will start in the near future! Once again, thanks GM. I will keep the thread running.

................and then these come up for sale.............. dang!

Klipshorns- Adopt My Babies (*sob*) | Trade Me

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Originally Posted by Coelacanth

................and then these come up for sale.............. dang!

Klipshorns- Adopt My Babies (*sob*) | Trade Me

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Don't worry, you won't be missing out on anything with your big MLTL cabs. (unless you like listening to a horn)

Like west end says you can do better by building your own. !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thank you gentlemen for helping whip the evil Klipsch virus from my traitorous soul!

Been there, done that, had the moments of glory and the hours of frustration......

Hello all.

Wow... its been a long time between drinks... but I have made it back. A great many things all happening at once really blindsided me and absolutely nothing has happened about this build...

Sadly I lost all of the information I had collated on this project when I switched jobs. I also had several seizures, which do strange things to my memory. So I am basically going to start fresh.

Despite some challenges, there have been some real positives too - one being I have moved into a much larger house, with a workshop. Another is the new work environment - filled with useful machinery - enourmous lathes and CNC mills etc. - some of which I operate.

Here is where I am at:

1) I want to build Altec 19's or an MLTL derivative. I will buy GPA drive units and import them..

2) I have the 811 horn which I can copy - or I can make better horns if someone can share a plan with me.

3) I had decided to use an upgraded XO network designed by Zilch. The XO was going to be used if I built replica 19's but I cannot recall if I was going to be able to use the same same design in MLTL cabinets.

I'm going back through posts and pms.. but if anyone can point me back to the road regarding the XO issue and a suitable wooden radial horn design for the GPA hf unit, I would be humbled and truly grateful.

I will get back on track with this and i will share here. Thank you all.

WOW.
after reading your post I would like to say. i'm sincerely glad to see you back.

everyone is still here. so it's a matter of reorienting and mapping new pathways. :)

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Originally Posted by Phil-G

WOW.
after reading your post I would like to say. i'm sincerely glad to see you back.

everyone is still here. so it's a matter of reorienting and mapping new pathways. :)

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That is most kind of you Phil. Thank you.

Yes I am going to have to make some new pathways - no doubt about it. All my PMs here on Hostboard have been deleted - I guess because my account was inactive.

I also searched my emails last night and found an order I placed with GPA for a the drivers for this build. I never received a reply to this email - I asked Bill for payment details and to hold the drivers for me until I could arrange suitable shipping to New Zealand. I can only suppose my email went to his junk box.

About this time I encountered the first of several seizures in fairly quick succession. They are a strange thing - like a reset button almost. When I come round from them it takes me a long time to work out who I am.. and lots of extraneous data seems to just fall by the wayside, along with stresses, cares and worries. So I end up feeling refreshed, but at a price. I've found recently that going back over my emails and messages can help fill in the blanks... but I hadn't thought if that last year. Anyhow.... onwards!

It will be 6 months or so before I have the funds again for the drivers.... (oops, I bought a Londinium espresso machine....). But I can work on horns and cabinets as of now.

Is there any danger of GPA disappearing between now and then?

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Originally Posted by Coelacanth

That is most kind of you Phil. Thank you.

Yes I am going to have to make some new pathways - no doubt about it. All my PMs here on Hostboard have been deleted - I guess because my account was inactive.

I also searched my emails last night and found an order I placed with GPA for a the drivers for this build. I never received a reply to this email - I asked Bill for payment details and to hold the drivers for me until I could arrange suitable shipping to New Zealand. I can only suppose my email went to his junk box.

About this time I encountered the first of several seizures in fairly quick succession. They are a strange thing - like a reset button almost. When I come round from them it takes me a long time to work out who I am.. and lots of extraneous data seems to just fall by the wayside, along with stresses, cares and worries. So I end up feeling refreshed, but at a price. I've found recently that going back over my emails and messages can help fill in the blanks... but I hadn't thought if that last year. Anyhow.... onwards!

It will be 6 months or so before I have the funds again for the drivers.... (oops, I bought a Londinium espresso machine....). But I can work on horns and cabinets as of now.

Is there any danger of GPA disappearing between now and then?

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Welcome back and I'm glad you're OK! I think it's a safe bet that GPA will still be around in 6 months. However, of course they won't be around forever so I bought a pair of spare GPA diaphragms a while back in case I ever need them or want to swap them out some day in the (hopefully) distant future. Personally, I would build your speakers using the original Model 19 crossover design and not the Z-19's. Zilch was an intelligent and knowledgeable guy, but he really was a JBL expert and only "dabbled" in Altecs. He ended up using his Z-19 crossovers with non-Altec h.f. drivers--he couldn't get them to sound right with Altec h.f. drivers so what does that tell you about using Z-19's with Altec h.f. drivers??? The original Model 19 crossover is a masterpiece in my opinion. I own two pair of Model 19's and love them even more now that I've recapped both pair of crossovers and did the crossover ground modification that has already been discussed in this forum several times. Best of luck with your project!

Thanks for the comments VOT.

Interesting to hear that about the Z19's... everything I have read and re-read to date seemed to suggest they were superior to the original network.

I called up Bill at GPA for driver pricing etc this morning. Shipping is the killer. Getting these across the Pacific to New Zealand is going to be a massive expense. So you know what I did? I went for a drive to a couple of hifi shops in my area and listened to some modern tower speakers - priced at around what the GPA setup will cost me all up. This served to remind me that I don't want 'hifi' sound and that the A19 build will get me to where I want to go.

I got back from town and started re-designing my copy-router - to work with the horn build. Will start work on it tomorrow.

Then I have to make a decision - do I bother copying the 811's, or go with a Fostex 400 clone...? The Fostex has a lowere cutoff, but this is not of any real advantage I guess - but what I am really NOT sure about is whether this could be deterimental in some way to the end.result... Hopefully someone can answer that for me...

If the Fostex is suitable, that is the way I will go.

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Originally Posted by Coelacanth

Thanks for the comments VOT.

Interesting to hear that about the Z19's... everything I have read and re-read to date seemed to suggest they were superior to the original network.

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Most Model 19 owners here on this forum prefer the original Model 19 crossover design over the Z-19. I know there are some people who like the Z-19 on other forums (and maybe some here), but I think the most important thing you need to keep in mind is that the guy who designed the Z-19 (Zilch) ended up using his Z-19 crossovers with non-Altec h.f. drivers because he himself couldn't get the Z-19 crossover to sound "right" with Altec h.f. drivers. This is documented in Zilch's own posts regarding the Z-19 crossovers. So, by Zilch's own example (and his posts regarding this crossover), the Z-19 is not ideally suited for use with Altec h.f. drivers. Keep in mind the original Model 19 crossover has high frequency EQ/compensation built in that makes it sound great with the 416/802-8g (or 416/902-8a) combination/specifically designed for this combination of ALTEC drivers. There are schematics on this forum to build the original Model 19 crossovers -- if you are building crossovers I'd suggest building ones that are intended for Altec drivers (and also happen to be recommended by people who actually own Model 19's!). GPA also sells Model 19 crossovers that are true to the original design AFAIK. If you're paying for shipping for drivers from GPA, they could put a pair of crossovers in the box and it would barely change the weight of the box/may not change the shipping price for your GPA driver order which means essentially free shipping for the crossovers with the purchase of GPA drivers/shipping. Of course building your own Model 19 crossovers from the original design/schematic is an option too.

I've been looking at building a set of Model 19 crossovers for my HeathKit AS 101's. It has a driver load very much like the Model 19. So far, pricing everything out the parts are coming to roughly 215.00 from Parts Express.
When I get some cash together I'll start a separate post with my parts list so that you folks can ok it. The inductors are where it gets confusing. I'm looking at Jantzen inductors, I think the 18 AWG ones will work but I'm unsure. Also there is no direct match for the 0.77mH inductor but they list a 0.75 mH inductor. I would think that it would be close enough.

BillWojo

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Originally Posted by BillWojo

I've been looking at building a set of Model 19 crossovers for my HeathKit AS 101's. It has a driver load very much like the Model 19. So far, pricing everything out the parts are coming to roughly 215.00 from Parts Express.
When I get some cash together I'll start a separate post with my parts list so that you folks can ok it. The inductors are where it gets confusing. I'm looking at Jantzen inductors, I think the 18 AWG ones will work but I'm unsure. Also there is no direct match for the 0.77mH inductor but they list a 0.75 mH inductor. I would think that it would be close enough.

BillWojo

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Bill, I would very much appreciate it if you would indeed post your final Parts Express parts list once you have it all nailed down. Like Coelecanth, my build has been in the analysis/paralysis phase for quite some time now, but, like you, I've pretty much come to the conclusion that the original Model 19 crossover design may be the way to go with a Model 19-based build. As you noted, it's a very versatile crossover made specifically for the Altec drivers. I've driven myself half crazy trying to decide which crossover design to use for my 416/802/511B project, and I haven't ruled out using the original model 19 design. Having that parts list in hand would be great time-saver for many of us. Thanks in advance.
GeeDeeEmm

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Originally Posted by voice of the theater

Most Model 19 owners here on this forum prefer the original Model 19 crossover design over the Z-19. I know there are some people who like the Z-19 on other forums (and maybe some here), but I think the most important thing you need to keep in mind is that the guy who designed the Z-19 (Zilch) ended up using his Z-19 crossovers with non-Altec h.f. drivers because he himself couldn't get the Z-19 crossover to sound "right" with Altec h.f. drivers. This is documented in Zilch's own posts regarding the Z-19 crossovers. So, by Zilch's own example (and his posts regarding this crossover), the Z-19 is not ideally suited for use with Altec h.f. drivers. Keep in mind the original Model 19 crossover has high frequency EQ/compensation built in that makes it sound great with the 416/802-8g (or 416/902-8a) combination/specifically designed for this combination of ALTEC drivers. There are schematics on this forum to build the original Model 19 crossovers -- if you are building crossovers I'd suggest building ones that are intended for Altec drivers (and also happen to be recommended by people who actually own Model 19's!). GPA also sells Model 19 crossovers that are true to the original design AFAIK. If you're paying for shipping for drivers from GPA, they could put a pair of crossovers in the box and it would barely change the weight of the box/may not change the shipping price for your GPA driver order which means essentially free shipping for the crossovers with the purchase of GPA drivers/shipping. Of course building your own Model 19 crossovers from the original design/schematic is an option too.

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Thanks for this. I take all of your points - and apologise if my original response seemed like a brush-off. Your words carry much weight, as does the collective experience of A19 owners.

It would certainly be simpler to get the GPA-recreated xo's. I guess with that taken care of I would only really have the cabinetry and horn building to take care of.

More to be said but busy working on copy router..

gdmoore28, I have started a thread, look for "Proposed Parts List for Model 19 Crossover". I'm also looking for input on that from the more technically astute members as I have some questions in that post as well.
I think the parts I have picked out are as good or better than the parts used on the stock crossovers that Altec built over 30 years ago. You can upgrade caps, inductors, probably find other things to push the cost of these crossovers well past the $1000.00 mark. The parts I picked out will keep it in the 215.00 range. Possible upgrades in the inductors, maybe, but even that wouldn't cost but an additional $50.00.
I think that it was a good idea to start a thread about building the Model 19 crossovers as I haven't come across anything that covers it well. Seems to be a popular crossover that does a lot very well.

BillWojo

Watching your Model 19 thread, Bill. Looking forward to it.

GeeDeeEmm