Making 511E horns from 511B horns
Ok, I know all about the factory Altec 511E horns (at least I think I do) where they cut the flange off and shortened it to fit larger flanges for the large format drivers. There is even a drawing some where that shows it needs to be shortened by 2.2" so the the horn interior is 1.4".
I already have a very nice set of 511B horns that I want to keep stock so I started looking and found a single 511B that was local for 75 bucks. Going to grab that this weekend.
Those of you that have played with the large format drivers on the 511E horn, can you tell me what to expect compared to the 511B with the smaller drivers.
I would be experimenting with 291-16K drivers with the symbiotik daiphragms.
I know I will be down in the higher frequency ranges but overall is it worth the time and trouble to build these?
I hate to cut up a good set of horns to do this but the chance of finding a set of 511E horns for cheap is slim to none.
I have the machining skills to pull this off and one of the fellows that hangs out at the race shop is an outstanding welder. I had a chip on the lip of one of my 511B horns, about 3/4" long and a 1/2 deep. He welded it up and blended it in to the stock contour so well that after painting it can't be seen. Needless to say, I was impressed.
So is this going to be a nice improvement or am I chasing a silly idea. I'm not even sure what Altec sold those horns for, seems the 311 horn would be a better match. They seem to go for stupid money though.
BillWojo
Re: Making 511E horns from 511B horns
I had a pair of 511e horns for about a month. I ended up flipping them because I didn't have any large format drivers at the time. They were factory horns with thick aquaplas coating. The welds on the flange were very sloppy. I was not impressed with the construction. It looked like they just cut a 511b and welded on a 3 bolt flange. I am sure anyone with even decent fabricating skills could do a better job.
Sorry I cant help out with the performance of them. I didn't have any large format drivers at the time and ended up selling them for 10x what I paid.
If you end up making some you could build some "Rodspeaker" clones;)
Re: Making 511E horns from 511B horns
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BillWojo
I'm not even sure what Altec sold those horns for, seems the 311 horn would be a better match.
For a big bada$$ studio monitor to ostensibly replace the A7 series. Note its 700 Hz XO point: http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/altec/specs/pro-speakers/9848.htm
GM
Re: Making 511E horns from 511B horns
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GM
So dual 411 woofers with a 288E driver on the 511e. Those look pretty cool! Are the 288E a ferrite or AlNiCo driver? I am not familiar with that model.
I was also wondering why they made the 511e. I bet there were not that many pairs made.
- - - Updated - - -
So in doing some quick research it looks like the 288e is basically a 288c with a different diaphragm.
Re: Making 511E horns from 511B horns
Re: Making 511E horns from 511B horns
Those "Rodspeakers" look like they would be cool but I don't have room for anything like them.
My idea would be to place them on my AS101 cabinets and use them instead of the 811/902 combo. I just have no idea of what to expect and if it would be worth all the hassle of building these.
I'm hoping that the shims come in tomorrow so that I can install the diaphragms in the 291-16K's. I'll take them over to my friend Davids house and hook them up to his EV horns. These are huge 3' fiberglass monsters that apparently were designed by Don Keele just before he left EV and went to JBL. That should give me a good sense of what they sound like. He is more excited than I am over this, they will go on loan to him for awhile as he integrates them with his big JBL bass bins. It will be very interesting to see what he comes up with.
BillWojo
Re: Making 511E horns from 511B horns
Just an update, those big drivers worked well on the HR9040 EV horns. Those things are bigger than I remembered, about 40" across the exit flange! I left the drivers with David to play and tweak to his hearts content.
So far I picked up one 511B horn to modify, I'll wait till I find a deal on another before I start cutting them. I looked on Ebay completed sales, these things are very rare (511E), what is the value of a completed set and is there a market for them? I know they won't be genuine Altec 511E's but I intend to make them every bit as good or better. Can someone tell me about aquaplast?
Thank you
BillWojo
Re: Making 511E horns from 511B horns
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BillWojo
Just an update, those big drivers worked well on the HR9040 EV horns. Those things are bigger than I remembered, about 40" across the exit flange! I left the drivers with David to play and tweak to his hearts content.
So far I picked up one 511B horn to modify, I'll wait till I find a deal on another before I start cutting them. I looked on Ebay completed sales, these things are very rare (511E), what is the value of a completed set and is there a market for them? I know they won't be genuine Altec 511E's but I intend to make them every bit as good or better. Can someone tell me about aquaplast?
Thank you
BillWojo
LOL! yes, they're small, like a 210 or 211 cabinet.
I tell you, those Great White Whales are very under-appreciated, and as you have experienced they're prohibitively large. Painting them black creates an optical illusion that shrinks them by 30-40%. IMO, the pinnacle of exponential, radial horns.
For those folks not familiar, a random google image to give a sense of scale:
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc.../2016/12/2.jpg
Ideally, you build cabinets for them such that they can be heavily braced/mass loaded...................
Like this:
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc.../2016/12/3.jpg
Re: Making 511E horns from 511B horns
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BillWojo
Can someone tell me about aquaplast?
I presume you mean Aquaplas ;):
http://www.vibra-sonic.com/vsc-wp/wp...s/Antivibe.pdf
aquaplast - Google Search
Quote:
I looked on Ebay completed sales, these things are very rare (511E), what is the value of a completed set and is there a market for them?
No clue, not really, they're a waste of large format drivers like shoehorning a vintage Ferrari V12 into a MG IMNSHO.
GM
Re: Making 511E horns from 511B horns
There would be no sonic advantage over the small format drivers if the crossover was kept fairly high? I figured that there was something to gain if Altec went to the trouble of making them. I know Altec did some nutty stuff near the end but I can't imagine that they would build something that was a down grade just to say "look at our big drivers".
My idea would be to build them and place them on top of my AS101's using the Model 19 crossover. Give them a nice paint job so they not only sound good but look good.
Great pic by the way of the EV horn. He has them in his small bedroom, gives a new meaning to near field listening. LOL Just sitting on top of his JBL bass bins, crossed at 500Hz using my JBL networks.
BillWojo
Re: Making 511E horns from 511B horns
Yeah I really think that Altec needed a "smaller" large format horn and had shit ton of 511b laying around. Someone probably had the good idea to cut off the flange and weld a large format flange on there.
If I had kept mine I could tell you how they sound now. Fortunately the proceeds from the sale funded another audio project;)
Re: Making 511E horns from 511B horns
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BillWojo
There would be no sonic advantage over the small format drivers if the crossover was kept fairly high? I figured that there was something to gain if Altec went to the trouble of making them.
At typical HIFI levels? Some will say 'yes' with a 500 Hz XO, but they are in the minority; otherwise they're technically a [big] step down overall.
It was done to get high power handling in a compact package at a 'bargain basement' price to try and keep up with other brands with more budget to make all new SOTA studio monitors, but according to the local distributor it was a flop. As is, it doesn't even make a decent DJ speaker these days [at least around here].
GM
Re: Making 511E horns from 511B horns
Its crazy the money they bring versus the 511b. It must just be the rarity that drives that
Re: Making 511E horns from 511B horns
Sure! If I had a lick o' sense I'd of scooped up the 511s back when you couldn't hardly give them away and had my welder buddy/neighbor up the street convert them all, then both models could be relatively scarce! ;)
GM
Re: Making 511E horns from 511B horns
If one needs to modify their radial horns so that they can reach a compromise to comfortably keep listening to these superb drivers ( ie Altec 288's ), then that's exactly what they ought to do.
I listen to my 288-8K's through Emilar EH-500's.
-Size wise, the EH-500 is very close to that of the 811B. My crossover point is @ 750hz .
I hear ( through this smallish horn ), the same superb natural mid-range ( that 288's are noted for ) .
I will say that tweeter-like "air or sparkle" is not the 288's forte, from my experience .
You know, I've mixed audio for more than 40 years, and the inferences posted here within this thread that I should listen to something else ( due to not having full-sized horns ) amounts to more of the same personal dogma ( floated as fact ) that forces me avoid Pro-Audio forums.
For those that want to modify 511's, here's a rough guide ( created by a previous long-term member who simply moved on, bfish ).
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc.../2013/01/9.jpg
:)
Re: Making 511E horns from 511B horns
Ok im going nuts following these forums! Im trying to figure out what the hell to do to build a phenomenal horn system. What does GM/Earl K anybody looking at this thread do if they were making a system for a room in the area 15x15-35x25? Ive followed alot of GM's threads and believe the MLTL is the right choice for a cab to get bass for days and im not worried about having refrigerator sized cabs as the center piece of the house. I like listening pretty damn loud at times and quiet others; and I listen to current hip hop with low low bass and high highs yet also go back to Django Reinhardt in the 30s and jazz and rock from the 50's 60s.
Im looking for an extremely well balanced speaker system that will do just about everything right. I run a heavily modded Fisher 400 tube system coming in around 24watts per channel with the mods installed this thing can produce near perfect textbook square waves thanks to Dave Gillespie over on audiokarma.
Back to the speakers so I read great things about the altec 416s and i love the altec midrange as I currently listen to seeburg speakers with a 12" utah and altec 806a 811b combo. So whats a good woofer for this size room that wont ever dissapoint? and whats a good pairing? Ive read about people loving the model 19 combo of 416-8b 802-8g and ive heard knocking of the small format drivers and the 811b horns for not having very flat response. I also see that a single 416 is still a bit low pairing with a 802/902?
So again if you were going to build that one speaker system for my room arrangement with my amp and diverse listening habbits what would you create to make a system to "rule them all" for this arrangement.
any and all responses are much appreciated
all the best
Paul
Re: Making 511E horns from 511B horns
This is an interesting topic because I have a 2nd pair of 511b horns doing nothing, lusted after a 288 horn combo for some time now but the cost put a damper on that audio lust. Making the flanges would not be to much of a issue, and finding a shop to handle the welding should pose no problems either. Finding a pair of 288s at a decent price will be a problem.
Re: Making 511E horns from 511B horns
Hi SD 50, I have a set of 291-16K drivers with the Symbiotik diaphragms that I want to use. I have not seen a direct comparison of the 288 and the 291 (Ceramic magnets) but I suspect that they are not that far off. Found a local Buy it Now on Ebay for the drivers for 125.00 (no shipping!) and bought good used diaphragms from a member here for 100 bucks. So with careful shopping you can find something to use.
My plan is to blend the flange to the throat after they are welded on with epoxy and grind it smooth, like porting and polishing a cylinder head port.
I was hoping that the combination of 511E horns and the large format driver would sound even better that my 811B/902 combination. I would be crossing them at either 800Hz or using the Model 19 crossover at 1200Hz.
There hasn't been much written on how they sound and GM seems to think that it is a total waist of time and a set of horns. Now I'm up in the air as what to do. I have already picked up one horn to modify and would still have to purchase another. I don't want to have to much invested if it turns into a failure.
What to do?
BillWojo
Re: Making 511E horns from 511B horns
Quote:
Originally Posted by
streetwise23
Ok im going nuts following these forums! Im trying to figure out what the hell to do to build a phenomenal horn system. What does GM/Earl K anybody looking at this thread do if they were making a system for a room in the area 15x15-35x25? Ive followed alot of GM's threads and believe the MLTL is the right choice for a cab to get bass for days and im not worried about having refrigerator sized cabs as the center piece of the house. I like listening pretty damn loud at times and quiet others; and I listen to current hip hop with low low bass and high highs yet also go back to Django Reinhardt in the 30s and jazz and rock from the 50's 60s.
Im looking for an extremely well balanced speaker system that will do just about everything right. I run a heavily modded Fisher 400 tube system coming in around 24watts per channel with the mods installed this thing can produce near perfect textbook square waves thanks to Dave Gillespie over on audiokarma.
Back to the speakers so I read great things about the altec 416s and i love the altec midrange as I currently listen to seeburg speakers with a 12" utah and altec 806a 811b combo. So whats a good woofer for this size room that wont ever dissapoint? and whats a good pairing? Ive read about people loving the model 19 combo of 416-8b 802-8g and ive heard knocking of the small format drivers and the 811b horns for not having very flat response. I also see that a single 416 is still a bit low pairing with a 802/902?
So again if you were going to build that one speaker system for my room arrangement with my amp and diverse listening habbits what would you create to make a system to "rule them all" for this arrangement.
any and all responses are much appreciated
all the best
Paul
Paul,
I'll see if I can dig up the thread over the next couple of days ( it's here somewhere ) of a large ( Altec ) horn loaded system that was made ( Steve? ) using twin horn-loaded 15's with a 288/511e combo , topped off with a Heil? AMT-1a tweeter ( he also had subs ).
So far my searches have come up empty.
Given the space ( & personal energy ) I would consider building something along his lines .
:)
Re: Making 511E horns from 511B horns
Re: Making 511E horns from 511B horns
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Earl K
Paul,
I'll see if I can dig up the thread over the next couple of days ( it's here somewhere ) of a large ( Altec ) horn loaded system that was made ( Steve? ) using twin horn-loaded 15's with a 288/511e combo , topped off with a Heil? AMT-1a tweeter ( he also had subs ).
So far my searches have come up empty.
Given the space ( & personal energy ) I would consider building something along his lines .
:)
thanks Earl i appreciate it, sorry for jacking the thread just didn't get many answers last time i set up a thread on the subject. And thank you GM always appreciated. Im sure as i research more ill have endless questions thanks in advance!
- - - Updated - - -
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GM
GM looks like quite a impressive system also extremely expensive. What are the benefits of his system to say something like the one you helped Westend with. Im still leaning more towards a system like Westends being less exotic partially because of cost but also aesthetics. What are the main differences between a bass horn system and an MLTL? One thing two bring up that seems to be the weakpoint in westends system is still the 802-8g in the 811b horn
Re: Making 511E horns from 511B horns
Thanks GM, Steve Mac is certainly the fellow I was thinking of ( glad your memory is working ) .
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc.../2016/12/4.jpg
:)
Re: Making 511E horns from 511B horns
You're welcome! Memory, not so much, just remembered I was much involved in this with lots of PMs I managed to find in an old yahoo account. Didn't know these things could remain unused for so long without being deleted. I guess as long as dozens to hundreds of SPAM continues to clog it daily.......
GM
Re: Making 511E horns from 511B horns
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BillWojo
Hi SD 50, I have a set of 291-16K drivers with the Symbiotik diaphragms that I want to use. I have not seen a direct comparison of the 288 and the 291 (Ceramic magnets) but I suspect that they are not that far off. Found a local Buy it Now on Ebay for the drivers for 125.00 (no shipping!) and bought good used diaphragms from a member here for 100 bucks. So with careful shopping you can find something to use.
My plan is to blend the flange to the throat after they are welded on with epoxy and grind it smooth, like porting and polishing a cylinder head port.
I was hoping that the combination of 511E horns and the large format driver would sound even better that my 811B/902 combination. I would be crossing them at either 800Hz or using the Model 19 crossover at 1200Hz.
There hasn't been much written on how they sound and GM seems to think that it is a total waist of time and a set of horns. Now I'm up in the air as what to do. I have already picked up one horn to modify and would still have to purchase another. I don't want to have to much invested if it turns into a failure.
What to do?
BillWojo
Hi Bill
Thinking along the same lines, may be a waste of time and destruction of a perfectly good pair of 511 horns. I'll keep searching for proper horns hopefully for cheap. About 10 years back missed out on a pair of A5s for free out of a run-downed movie theater .
