Markwart 605 XO cap values
Hi everybody,
I am the newest addition to the ALTEC fan club with a purchase of a 605A I'm very excited about turning into an awesome mono speaker! I'm going to build the Markwart 605 XO and I have a question about cap values. It requires 3 caps - 4.7uf, 5uf, and 7uf. The options for 5 and 7 are limited in that there are only a few available that are affordable. I managed to find a 5uf Genteq/GE Film Oil cap, but the closest I could find for the 7uf is 6.8 - Obbligato Film Oil. Would using 6.8 be acceptable, or am I better off finding a 7? For most things, I would think 6.8 is fine, but I'm just not sure how close these tolerances on the MW XO need to be.
Crossover for reference: http://home.earthlink.net/~jmarkwart...605a_brev1.pdf
Thank you!
Re: Markwart 605 XO cap values
Welcome to the hostboard!
For instance on my xover they called out for 6uf, 12uf, and 25uf caps. I couldn't find the 25uf so I bought the 24uf. When I tested them before install they tested at 25.2uf and 25.3uf. Good enough for me!
Some people want to hit the values exactly. I am one that is ok with the values being within the 3-5%.
I also tested each one of my caps and made sure each crossover was "even" from side to side with caps values.
I have also heard of people buying many more caps than they need, testing them, and then using the closest values.
If you search the hostboard there are at least a few recent threads on Markwart's xover. I also emailed Jeff with a few questions and he was very helpful.
Please post some pics when you are done!
Altec 604G Markwart xover (1st attempt)
Jeff Markwart's 604-8G crossover
Re: Markwart 605 XO cap values
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Elitopus1
Welcome to the hostboard!
For instance on my xover they called out for 6uf, 12uf, and 25uf caps. I couldn't find the 25uf so I bought the 24uf. When I tested them before install they tested at 25.2uf and 25.3uf. Good enough for me!
Some people want to hit the values exactly. I am one that is ok with the values being within the 3-5%.
I also tested each one of my caps and made sure each crossover was "even" from side to side with caps values.
I have also heard of people buying many more caps than they need, testing them, and then using the closest values.
If you search the hostboard there are at least a few recent threads on Markwart's xover. I also emailed Jeff with a few questions and he was very helpful.
Please post some pics when you are done!
Altec 604G Markwart xover (1st attempt)
Jeff Markwart's 604-8G crossover
Great info, thank you! I will definitely post some pictures and my results when this is finished!
Re: Markwart 605 XO cap values
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LowOhms
Well, the value of the cap, or its closeness to a schematic's proposed value, is NOT that important. Most people get this wrong all the time, priority - wise.
What is REALLY important is the QUALITY of the cap, if you want the best possible sonic result.
The quality of the materials and construction is always more important, than hitting an absolute value. It is nice, for values to be the same, in stereo applications, ( which you don't have in mono.)
See my recent post #7, on crossover caps, in my current thread.
So far, its hard to get answers on the question of high quality caps up here. The common goal is " as cheap as possible " and not " as good as possible ". Maybe one should talk to some advanced high-end speaker builders.
Low Ohms .......Jeff Medwin
The comment about only liking caps that are as "cheap as possible" is incorrect. We actually like how oil caps sound. The fact that they are also inexpensive is just an added bonus.
People have been using oil caps and Altecs for over half a century. There is just good synergy there.
Re: Markwart 605 XO cap values
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Elitopus1
The comment about only liking caps that are as "cheap as possible" is incorrect. We actually like how oil caps sound. The fact that they are also inexpensive is just an added bonus.
People have been using oil caps and Altecs for over half a century. There is just good synergy there.
Hi there,
Respectfully, Don, I don't think so at all !! Oil Caps are NOT the best possible caps, and I will NOT use them on my ALTECS - ever !!!
They just don't cut it compared to MODERN caps. I mean, IF you are willing to spend the money ( and on occasions I am) there are FAR FAR better sounding caps than mushy - midrangey oil caps. ( People often employ oilers to " smooth out" all the grunge from their poor sounding solid state amps, and poor system wiring ) You just haven't heard it yet - good ALTEC systems with modern caps.
Modern caps are far superior. WE have modern caps, sometimes audiophile, sometimes industrial and designed for pulse applications, that simply, easily, totally destroy ALL oil caps. The problem is, not every one knows what to use. That was the purpose of my other thread. But is seems like everyone up here is asleep, unaware !! Snoozing.
As one example, on a well set up ALTEC ( that ass/u/me s a LOT ) try any 4 uF oil to a 4 uF DynamiCapE ( available from Mike Percy ) with doctored leads. And there are even FAR better comparisons I could suggest, but can't for now, because they are still in the evaluation stage.
Lets get beyond this "mid - fi" and wasting ALTEC speakers' potential, ....and get into high fidelity !!!
Jeff Medwin Low Ohms
Re: Markwart 605 XO cap values
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LowOhms
Hi there,
Respectfully, Don, I don't think so at all !! Oil Caps are NOT the best possible caps, and I will NOT use them on my ALTECS - ever !!!
They just don't cut it compared to MODERN caps. I mean, IF you are willing to spend the money ( and on occasions I am) there are FAR FAR better sounding caps than mushy - midrangey oil caps. ( People often employ oilers to " smooth out" all the grunge from their poor sounding solid state amps, and poor system wiring ) You just haven't heard it yet - good ALTEC systems with modern caps.
Modern caps are far superior. WE have modern caps, sometimes audiophile, sometimes industrial and designed for pulse applications, that simply, easily, totally destroy ALL oil caps. The problem is, not every one knows what to use. That was the purpose of my other thread. But is seems like everyone up here is asleep, unaware !! Snoozing.
As one example, on a well set up ALTEC ( that ass/u/me s a LOT ) try any 4 uF oil to a 4 uF DynamiCapE ( available from Mike Percy ) with doctored leads. And there are even FAR better comparisons I could suggest, but can't for now, because they are still in the evaluation stage.
Lets get beyond this "mid - fi" and wasting ALTEC speakers' potential, ....and get into high fidelity !!!
Jeff Medwin Low Ohms
Thanks for your posts, Jeff! It seems to me that the best sound is really in the ear of the beholder, and I've heard as many people rave about the benefits of modern caps as I have the oil. With the sheer number of their fans, it seems that PIO/film oil caps have some legitimate pluses too. Taste in sound, equipment used, and especially the space/listening environment all have an impact on what works. Given the large propensity for oil caps, I think I'm going to give them a go. If I totally hate them, then well, I'll know then where I stand! I will admit too that major reason I think for my choosing these is that the film oil caps seem to be the best value for the money that I can find now. I'll keep this thread posted as to what I find!
Re: Markwart 605 XO cap values
Like Basplin just mentioned, there are many people using oil caps who love them. Versus one person saying spend 100x more.
Re: Markwart 605 XO cap values
Jeff, you didn't do your homework assignment I gave you on transformer saturation. Why in the world would you need a cap that can store 1500 Amps? There is no logic to your thinking at all.
I knew from your first post that it was only a matter of time before you started touting your caps that you claim to be far superior to every other cap in existence. I was even laughing about it to a member of this board just yesterday on the phone. Your to predictable but you are amusing.
Many a member of this board has done the cap dance, seems a lot have settled on the old PIO caps. I will be trying them myself and in a little bit I will have some Russian teflon bypass caps to play with as well.
First up is the Solens film caps. After that I break out my stash of vintage 600V oil caps. Even have a few WE 8uF oil caps that I picked up at the flea market for 2 bucks each. I see they sell for 400 bucks a pop on Ebay, crazy huh? I'll swap in some Cornell's to see if they make a difference, selling the WE will pay for all the cost of my crossovers and than some.
So get back to your homework assignment Jeff and report back how those caps with 1500 Amp capacity is going to work out.
BillWojo
1 Attachment(s)
Re: Markwart 605 XO cap values
I just went to a local army surplus and found my caps for the Altec - old GE Dielekrol 5 and 7uf. These will go in the HF part of the crossover. I know the more recent Dielekrol's are film oil, but I'm not sure how old these are. Could be PIO? Anybody know? Either way, I think they will sound great!
Re: Markwart 605 XO cap values
Very cool. Those should be similar in composition to the newer GE caps. I would try them out and see how they sound:)
Re: Markwart 605 XO cap values
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Basplin
Could be PIO?
Non PCB, so no, what they call HAZY film foil. You could do a lot worse [scroll down to pg. 11]: https://www.geindustrial.com/catalog...rmonFiltrs.pdf
GM
Re: Markwart 605 XO cap values
Also at the surplus store today I found some Sprague Clorinol PIO (with PCB) caps for my other set of speakers I have - very rare Design Acoustics D-12's. NINE 2.5" Peerless tweeters in these bad boys. I recapped them with 1% Dayton audio MPP when I got them 3.5 years ago, and always noticed that in certain frequencies, a select few tweeters would distort - mostly in high piano notes, vibes, things like that. I had just assumed it was voice coil rub from 40 years of the same position on these tweeter magnets. Fast forward to this week - as I'm reading about how capacitors can give a "glaring" sound, I started to wonder if it was the caps I used...
I installed those PIO caps tonight - one speaker at a time so I could A/B between the Dayton and Sprague - and WOW. I was floored. The difference is night and day. The Dayton's don't hold a candle to the clarity and the strength of sound of the Spragues. I wasn't expecting this much of a difference, but it was huge. The sound was so much less grainular too. Passages of high complexity - from Beethoven Piano Sonatas to Modern Jazz Quartet - were effortlessly conveyed with the PIO. The highs were a muddled mess with the Daytons. It was something that hadn't really bothered me before, but I could hear it now. AND, there was no distortion with the Spragues in places I had gotten it before.
I will say that I've got pretty good ears. I'm a professional orchestral musician and my job is literally all about dissecting the small, minute, differences in sound. This isn't to say I'm not biased like anybody else, because I'm sure I am in some way, but to my ears, there was quite a noticeable different with these caps on these speakers. It's nice to finally know what everyone is talking about with these PIO caps, and with only one point of reference so far, I have to agree!
Re: Markwart 605 XO cap values
Basplin, haven't you heard? PIO are out! Must have $400/cap parts in your crossover or they are no good. Or was it $200/cap? Who cares!
Glad to hear that they worked out so well for you. You are uniquely qualified as a musician. Unfortunately, my hearing is not as acute as yours after working years in industrial shops and racing motorcycles.
It's nice to see that old school vintage caps can perform so well and can be purchased at non audiophile prices.
BillWojo
- - - Updated - - -
Sorry if my writing insults you Jeffrey but it was never my forte. I did excel in math and the sciences though, subjects that you must have slept through. I bet you excelled in your writing class, was your specialty about fantasy's? You do it so well.
BillWojo
Re: Markwart 605 XO cap values
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BillWojo
Basplin, haven't you heard? PIO are out! Must have $400/cap parts in your crossover or they are no good. Or was it $200/cap? Who cares!
Glad to hear that they worked out so well for you. You are uniquely qualified as a musician. Unfortunately, my hearing is not as acute as yours after working years in industrial shops and racing motorcycles.
It's nice to see that old school vintage caps can perform so well and can be purchased at non audiophile prices.
BillWojo
Ugh, I guess I should just throw it all away then! LOL.
I know the day will come when my ears are not able to enjoy these things as I do now...which is why it's important for me to just enjoy the music and not lose sight of what all this is really all about. That being said, it does make me really happy that I don't have to spend an arm and leg and a kidney to get something that helps reproduce all this wonderful music so beautifully!
Re: Markwart 605 XO cap values
Well Bill, I'm a drag racer........40years now.
I was in the electronics industry (Eng Tech spectrum Analyzers) now I run a chassis dyno.
What I find is that I just need to turn the volume up and the levels come into focus.
I have to use those Fletcher Munson curves.
I always joke that I need horns, My ears are a bit worn out.
And 3 watts just won't do it for me.
I scavenged some PIO caps from some AC line amps I had from the 50's.
So I have 2 ea 2uf, 3uf and 10uf. Hardly enough to build a crossover.
On the exactness of the values. I have been playing with Jeff's phase correct crossover schematics.
Jeff was kind enough to give me the data for the Ferrite 604-168X speakers he measured.
I downloaded Xsim from DIY audio.
You can play with the values and watch the effects of the freq response and phase as you make changes.
So for instance, making a 7uf a 6.8uf has quite a small effect.
I poked around on parts express looking at boutique caps. Gads. Pretty easy to spend a grand on caps for two Xovers that you might not like!
I spent $400 on my duplexes, and $1100 on my M19's. Quite some time ago I might add.
I don't know if we have much for surplus stores here in Portland. Even if we did, there are enough audio scroungers here, I doubt much good to find.
Although I probably know the guys who have all the good shit.
Ron
Re: Markwart 605 XO cap values
OT: Jeff, how does disagreeing with a technical point you make become a personal attack? Crikey!
OT: A chassis dyno? Thats awesome
I took my Camaro and my motorcycle to the dyno when I was younger. Man I wish I could live at that place and see all the cool cars that go through there. Talk about needing hearing protection.
Ok back on topic:
I need to find some older oil caps. I bet they have a really good tone
Re: Markwart 605 XO cap values
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Basplin
Also at the surplus store today I found some Sprague Clorinol PIO (with PCB) caps......
Lucky so n' so! :D All these types of old caps regardless of brand are same-same as the Bell/WE/AT-T caps with mil-spec versions ditto except have been tested, documented as such, so if still good, about as close as one can get to the OEM 'tone', if one has the period correct driver, signal chain of course since they were 'voiced' as a system.
Since the vast majority of us don't though, I have a hard time getting 'teary eyed' about whether I have these or more modern non-pcb damped/cooled caps, just that they be this basic type used with vintage or [modern] similar design drivers, horns if one wants a [somewhat] 'vintage' sound or just prefer the more 'laid back'/'smoother' tone that doesn't tend to overly excite my nearly lifelong tinnitus.
GM
Re: Markwart 605 XO cap values
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GM
Lucky so n' so! :D All these types of old caps regardless of brand are same-same as the Bell/WE/AT-T caps with mil-spec versions ditto except have been tested, documented as such, so if still good, about as close as one can get to the OEM 'tone', if one has the period correct driver, signal chain of course since they were 'voiced' as a system.
Since the vast majority of us don't though, I have a hard time getting 'teary eyed' about whether I have these or more modern non-pcb damped/cooled caps, just that they be this basic type used with vintage or [modern] similar design drivers, horns if one wants a [somewhat] 'vintage' sound or just prefer the more 'laid back'/'smoother' tone that doesn't tend to overly excite my nearly lifelong tinnitus.
GM
The D12's use 1970's Peerless cone tweeters, so I'm not sure if these are necessarily OEM tone. However, I believe the original caps were PIO (black caps with red ends). Regardless, they sound phenomenal. They really tame those "hot" tweeters and smooth them out very nicely.
Yeah, I freaked when I saw em. The only Clorinols they had, and just happened to be in the exact values I was looking for....:cool:
That being said, I couldn't find any (or totally missed) PCB ones for the 5 and 7uf, just the GE Dielektrols. I have heard these are still great though. What's the difference in sound between the non-PCB and PCB ones anyways? I'm assuming all non-PCB's are the hazy film in oil, and not PIO?
Re: Markwart 605 XO cap values
If I ever knew what HAZY stood for, I've long since forgotten. As for tonal differences, 'we' [HAM radio, local Altec related folks] were of the opinion that if you didn't know there was a difference, one didn't hear a difference, so all I'll commit to is that in 'our' UL short circuit testing the [nasty smelling] vegetable oil used at the time [still do?] performed near enough the same to just add it to the original's certifications.
Over time though, any aging effects will require one to compare what they have to determine what sounds best to them in their app.
Note that as time wore on, [power factor, etc.] capacitor production was reduced to either a single plant or three over different continents making the cans, another the 'internals' and a third did the assembly regardless of brand IIRC, but can't remember if this happened in the '80s or early '90s or what the status quo became after I retired in '94, but personally just going to buy new and not going to bother trying to keep same brand, etc., as I believe they all probably come from the same plant[s] in China/wherever nowadays.
Maybe I will try others if I switch to SETs for the horns at some later date, but woofers will stay SS to retain their 'snap', so no 'conflicts of interest' sound wise for me.
GM
Re: Markwart 605 XO cap values
Yeah, that sounds right. I imagine whatever differences there are are pretty minute, and that I'm going to be enjoying the sound so much I'll forget all about what caps I used!
That's another thing that makes me hesitate about spending lots of money on new caps - how do I know where it's coming from, and that it doesn't just have a different label on it with the price jacked up? There can't be that many places making this stuff, unless of course someone does it all themselves in small batches. All more reason to just buy something that sounds nice and move on...
Should be putting together this speaker here in the next week or so, so I'll report back about how these Dielektrols work out!
Re: Markwart 605 XO cap values
He, he, back when boutique cables became the rage I use to do a dog n' pony act 'swapping out' pairs of interconnect cables with them blindfolded, but all I was doing was taking out the cheap pair, coating them with a proprietary 'space age' paste that cleaned, lubricated and sealed them and rotating them back n' forth during reinstallation, which definitely did sound better, especially with higher efficiency speakers, so of course they believed it was the boutique pair.
The truly weird part was that even after exposing the ruse, quite a few still bought the boutique ones after a blindfold test with the doped el cheapo ones that I later showed they only sounded different due to having little R-C [baffle step compensation] filters wired in-line!
Go figure! Any sane person would use the el cheapo and add an adjustable BSC filter to truly dial it into the room, etc., instead of having to swap out expensive cables.
BTW, the goop was a vaseline and hydraulic fluid blend specially formulated for NASA. No clue WRT the rest of its details or what it was developed for, but I've long since used up what little was left in the can I found in the chemicals recycle bin trying to 'clone' it and sure could have used it the other day to restore all my ancient cables.
In short, just as real estate is mostly all about location, location, location, so too electrical distribution is mostly about connection, connection, connection.
GM
Re: Markwart 605 XO cap values
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LowOhms
The mushy oils smooth-out all their implementation's imperfections.
Some people love driving Ferraris and perhaps - even driving the new Ford GT. Others, ( good people BTW !! ), are destined to drive Chryslers, more drive Chryslers.
Low Ohms ..... Jeff Medwin
Jeff I use oil caps for the simple reason that they sound very good for the price. Would love to try the high end stuff but way beyond my audio budget, replacing all the oil caps in my A7 XOs with DynamiCaps would cost me $1508 American dollars! More for my Markwart 604 XOs.
That type of money is reserved for my bikes and acoustic guitars:)
Re: Markwart 605 XO cap values
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Basplin
I will say that I've got pretty good ears. I'm a professional orchestral musician and my job is literally all about dissecting the small, minute, differences in sound. This isn't to say I'm not biased like anybody else, because I'm sure I am in some way, but to my ears, there was quite a noticeable different with these caps on these speakers. It's nice to finally know what everyone is talking about with these PIO caps, and with only one point of reference so far, I have to agree!
Good to see another musician recognizing the virtues of PIO caps👍🏻
JE🎻😊
