-
I?ve got some news about Kodak film stocks.
Unfortunatly there were several production problems with K25 and K40 in the past, in Manchester/USA as well as in France.
The raw Kodachrome emulsions are produced in Manchester and shipped to France, where they are cutted down to the various gauges and where the S8 cart is made.
The first problem occured in Manchester, where one of the two production lines sucked completly. It was not fixed again, instead fixing, they discontinued the film stock with the least profit, K25.
Then they reorganized the production process of the other line, which is for the resting Kodachrome stock. This involved a change of the lubrification process (silicon protective layer on the film). For still cameras or sprocket driven 16 mm cameras there was no problem with this. But for S8 cameras, the film friction is involved and this may result in a less stable frame. S8 simply had been ignored in this reorganisation. But there is a hope, that the next production charge of film is different again and better.
In parallel there was another quality problem at Kodak France, concerning the S8 cardriges. A small tiny disc inside the cardrige had too much rests of plastic and could totally block the film movement in the camera. This problem now is RESOLVED.
So we have/had two quality problems with cardriges: Sometimes a fast trembling of the picture, caused by the not perfect silicon layer which hopefuly may be resolved within the next months, and on the other hand cardriges which could block totally, caused by the insufficient disc.
It?s recommended to return every bad cardrige to Kodak and to listen carfully to the "sound" of the camera.
Pedro
------------------
-
the info is from Bavaria Film Munich, who are in direct contact with Kodak as they are selling huge amounts of film, also to prof users.
Pedro
------------------
-
hi,
yes, I've the same info from wittner kinotechnik ( http://www.wittner-kinotechnik.de ). They are according to the information from KODAK the biggest German S8-film supplier.
mathew
-
I've had problems with my film jamming....and worse yet I belive it has taken its' toll on my beautiful Bealieu. My camera no longer moves film. I had 3 to 4 jammed cartriges on my last shoot....the footage was meant as b-roll cover so I didn't jeopardize my project. I was also in a desert situation, and there was some dust kicking up on one day of shooting a rodeo. I did not open the film door in dusty conditions....and I thought at the time that the dust didn't get into the camera. So now I'm waiting to come in contact with a reliable referral of someone that can fix my camera in the NYC area. Should anyone know of a person that is experienced, and fair please email me contact information.
Bottom line is I've run into bad cartriges....in fact a lot of them on one shoot. I'm grateful to hear the problem is fixed. I've heard that sound in my camera of a bad roll and know the feeling that something just wasn't right....so now I will be super aware for the future.
The footage I did get back was stunning and left me wanting more....so I want to get my camera back up and running.
Peace,
Scott
------------------
-
the film I have right now in my camera makes really bad noise when running. I can almost feel the film moving when I shoot.
Pedro, where did you hear about this?
M
------------------
-
www.duallcamera.com
these folks repair and sell super 8 cameras in new york. although, they my be expensive, they will do the job right.
------------------
-
Man, this sounds like a mess! So if we all decide not to order any more K40 for a while (I have plenty in the 'fridge), it seems like we will have two problems. One, the suspected "bad" product will still be on the shelves waiting for us. Two, Kodak will measure a drop in K40 sales. We certainly don't need that to happen.
Is this problem limited to K40? I was gonna order some B&W soon.
Do we have enough confirmation of the situation? Despite the fact that I've done plenty to promote Kodak products through my Web site over the years, no one from the company has ever (not once!) answered my e-mails. Sure would love to hear about this from the horse's mouth, though.
------------------
--Mike Brantley
-
If people say to themselves "With all these problems, I'm going to stop using Kodachrome for a while, till they fix it." won't the drop in sales be used as an excuse by the Kodak marketing guys to try and discontinue the stock? I get the feeling, no matter what happens, this is the end of Kodachome. A damn shame if you ask me.
------------------
Konton the Grey
-
the best thing to do here is to keep buying as you do. and, if you get some bad carts, send them back to kodak for new.
------------------
-
How often have you experienced a bad cartridge, should I calculate on that or does it happen 1-100 times?
Thor
------------------
-
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MovieStuff:
I think the biggest question is: Is there any kind of seriel number or marking that will tell a potential buyer if the cartidge is one of the "bad" units?......Unless Kodak does a voluntary recall on the K40 units that are defective, that stuff will still be sitting on the shelf.....We need something that we can show the manager to alert him there's a problem.....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I've been out of touch with Super 8 for awhile and now hoping to take it up again. Is this fact or rumour?Pedro implies the info source is reliable?
The way front office corporate dudes might think...."Well, we have got this economic downturn and also this most unfortunate Super8 defective cartridge situation....
....our profits in Super8 are negative and it would certainly not be to Kodak's stockholders interest to continue the Super8 division....we'll even lose more$$$, if we have to recall.... Super8 is only a very minor & diminishing portion of our product line and anyway,'digital' is the future".
The above is like a worst case/nightmare, scenario? Using this as pretext to shut down Super 8. The "final nail on the coffin"? I do not know how humanitarian Kodak is,i.e., they are supporting Super8 format, out the kindness of their hearts, in the interest of the worldwide Super8 film arteests??? I hope that my cynical/negative speculations are completely WRONG.
Again, I'm kind of a new kid on the Super8 block....re-discovering this film format.....lots of you out here possibly have more invested in this as an avocation, livelihood, artform, etc.
I ask the question again...."Is this fact or rumour?" Kodak does have their website....
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/super8/
To contact them.....
http://www.kodak.com/cgi-bin/global/...t/contact.conf
In top drop-down menu box, select..."motion picture imaging" and in the lower/2nd drop- down menu box, select...."Super 8 Film"
I would not be angry or pissed-off at Kodak....just maybe an inquiry that is very diplomatic & friendly.....they kind of have us by our metaphorical "huevos" http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/wink.gif
Any out here have contacts with other Super 8 sites or forums or especially webmasters who run other Super8 sites? Maybe kind of network together and find out what is really going on? An organized group effort sort of thing.
Lionel
-
When I shot Jet Benny all those years ago, Foxy Foto and other labs seemed to have a bad track record of losing film. To combat that, I came up with the idea of spreading takes across two different cartridges. I typically did two takes of each set up after rehearsals and would shoot one take on one cartridge and then change over to a second cartridge for the second take. I would then process all of one set and wait to get it back before sending in the second set. It used a bit more film (due to the flash frames) but I felt it was a safer way to handle things since I always had a back up.
In this case, dual cartridges could be used to hedge your bets on only ONE of the cartridges being the bad one. Also, you could go as far as buying one set of cartridges at one source and another set at another source. Keeping records of where they came from might prove handy in case of any problems later on.
My two cents...
Roger
------------------
Roger Evans
MovieStuff
http://www.afterimagephoto.tv/moviestuff.html
-
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rollemfilm:
the best thing to do here is to keep buying as you do. and, if you get some bad carts, send them back to kodak for new.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hummmmm.....after I posted, I read rollenfilms message. Maybe sounds like a good idea, to keep a low profile (don't piss-off Kodak) and just return the defective Super8 cartridges (as they occur) for exchange, BUT.....How will you know the cartridges are bad. After you shot all the film? As Pedro suggested, just listening to the "sound of cartridge" if it's bad? Hummm....doesn't seem very accurate. I would be using much of Super8 for animation purposes.... mostly one film frame exposure at a time, and that does not make that much noise...click, click, click.....
Lionel
------------------
[This message has been edited by StopMoWorks (edited November 23, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by StopMoWorks (edited November 23, 2001).]
-
You know I got a roll of K40 a while back that rattled terribly when I began using it. I initially thought the problem was with my camera and switched the cartridge to a different camera, the noise persisted. Not wanting to chance filming anything important with this roll it sat in my bag stored in the foil packet for about a month. I finally tired of seeing it there and shot a home movie with it while on vacation. I had it processed through Walmart and it projected flawlessly. I realise that anyone shooting a feature wouldn't want to risk it though. I think the best thing would be to return any particular cartridge that seems suspicious. I purchased four other rolls at the same time I got the noisy one and they gave me no touble whatsoever. All of them came directly from shop@kodak online.
------------------
-
So does anybody know what the deal is with people who stock lage quantities of K-40 here in the states?
I mean, I suppose if Kahl or Wittner Kinotechnik had bad batches of K-40, they would probably send them back to the big K to be replaced... but I'm not so sure about places like <netphotostore> and some other people.
Did Kodak do a recall, or are we taking a chance ordering from other suppliers that we might be getting bad cartridges untill that run has been depleted?
While we're on the subject of other suppliers, I find it very annoying that Kodak is allowing itself to be undersold for online ordering. Kodak sells K-40 for $10.57 through shop@kodak, but netphotostore sells it for $9.18. And I've seen nothing to make me believe that Kodak offers a quantity discount for online orders.
Does anybody know if you can still order K-40 over the PHONE direct from Kodak, and if the quantity discount is still valid? Somehow, I get the impression that they are only selling S8 products online now...
------------------
-
I think the biggest question is: Is there any kind of seriel number or marking that will tell a potential buyer if the cartidge is one of the "bad" units? Unfortuately, it isn't simply a matter of everyone standing back and waiting for this problem to pass. Unless Kodak does a voluntary recall on the K40 units that are defective, that stuff will still be sitting on the shelf when we go back to buy some later, thinking that the coast is clear and safe.
More importantly, the average minimum wage employee at WalMart doesn't really care enough about quality control to see something like that through. So even if Kodak DOES a recall, it doesn't mean that the stores will respond if they have the attitude that it's just for amature use, so it doesn't matter. There's always a clean up on aisle 12 that needs more attention than pulling stock and sending it back to the manufacturer.
We need something that we can show the manager to alert him there's a problem and to protect those that might otherwise buy defective stock thinking that enough time has passed to take care of the problem.
Roger Evans
------------------
Roger Evans
MovieStuff http://www.afterimagephoto.tv/moviestuff.html
[This message has been edited by MovieStuff (edited November 23, 2001).]
-
first, my source is in fact reliable.
To calculate more or less the percentage, I can tell you, that I had one case of slightly trembling picture in August 2000, out of 15 carts in total. In May 2001 I had a blocking cart, I could make run again after hard beating on the floor. But the result was very trembling, trash. I?d shot about 15 carts from Jan?01 to June?01. Then I had another case of slightly trembling pics in August, 1 cart out of 16. Then some dammed fool broke the viewfinder of my camera and I had to wait until now for a very complicated fixing by a Beaulieu specialist. But I heard, that in the last 2 months there the problem got even more serious. I will see...
You should return any cart to Kodak, when there is a stange noise during shooting. Kodak is exchanging them without any problems.
Pedro
------------------
-
Hi,
I don't suppose somebody happens to have a sound sample of how a normal and a bad cartridge sound like in the camera?
I recently got my first batch of films, 10 of them K40. As I've only just started to film on Super8 I wouldn't be able to tell if I've I'm filming an entire batch of damaged carts.
Daniel
------------------
-
a normal cartridge sounds about the same as no cartridge. a bad cartridge gives a grinding sound that varies in intensity. kind of like somebody chewing hard candy...
/matt
-
Here?s a link to a site where you can hear a running Eumig camera! http://members.nusurf.at/pandreas/eumig-museum/
With a good cart, the camera shouldn?t make much more noise than without film. When the cart is blocking, the claw won?t succeed in pulling the film down and cause a kinda clicking, rappling noise.
Pedro
Pedro
------------------
-
The camera does sound a little different than without a cartridge, but not more different than I'd expect. Can I send you a short sound sample from my 4008?
------------------
-
Pedro,
I ordered 20 rolls of film early in the summer (May 2001, I think), and have used 2 of the rolls and both have had this problem. I was afraid that maybe it had been because I had stored them in refrigeration, although they were stored unopen and I allowed plenty of time for them to reach room temperature before opening.
So does anyone know if I can send them all back, unused? It would be horribley incovenient to have to go through a few cartridges each time reloading before being able to shoot.
Also, does anyone know how much this affects the film transport and final image? Does the end product look unstable or is it not very noticeable. Although the flucuating noise the cartridge makes is very loud and annoying.
I finally sent the 2 cartridges in to Walmart for developing yesterday. If you look at the additional services thingy they have at the store it list motion picture film and says return time is 2 weeks. And the price is less than $5 per roll. Not bad.
Scott
------------------
-
Vurfer:
feel free to send it to me... But I have no 4008 to compare, so you should sample both, empty camera and with film, under identical recording conditions. If you want, we can exchange phone/address (Munich!!!).
Yesterday I shot a roll in the 9008, and it run very smooth, nearly no diferent noise with or without film. Dangerous is the "clicking" noise. Even if making the film of such a cart run again, beating it on the ground or advancing it by hand, the pic steadyness will be terrible. Sent it back.
Critical is the other problem of the cart, which doen?t result in another kind of noise, but in a high frequent trembling of the pic. I beat EVERY cart a few times hard on the ground, to release the loops and clean the gate before loading, hopefully avoiding that kind of problem.
UlrichSD:
I would not return films which are unopened only for suspect. Even when Kodak will replace them, this behaviour would be a financial disaster for K40 and dangerous for the continuity of this great stock.
Pedro
------------------
[This message has been edited by #Pedro (edited November 28, 2001).]
-
Just got mail from the chief of Kodaks movieproducts in Finland.
I sended that Pedros letter to him and asked if he knows something about it.
He wrote that he heard about that few days ago and the fault was only in VISION 200T S8 films. K40 film should not have this problem, but since all S8 films sold in Europe are packed in to cartridges in France, it's possible.
He also wrote that he knows for sure that Kodak is investigateing this very hard right now.
Mikko
One thing he wrote, has nothing to do with this but got me thinking...
Is that S8 film is used quite a lot in surveilance cameras around the world. Even today!
Does anybody know more about this? Yes, there was a stock called Surveilance film berore Vision 200T came out, but still...seems quite funny.
------------------
-
the film was/is used for that kind of cameras, as the capacity is very high (about 3240 frames per cart) and the detail reproduction/chance to identify persons is much better than that of digital systems, considering the number of possible frames vs. resolution. Maybe, that with the very latesd dig cameras this will be relativated in future.
Pedro
------------------
