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After working with Super8 for a while, I wanna start experimenting with 16mm, and I'm looking for camera reccomendations. An Arri would be nice, but way out of my budget, I'm looking for something cheap, yet functional with some shred of quality, here are a few I'm curious about:
Russian K3- Heard plenty of bad and some good stuff, but they are dirt cheap, are they worth dealing with??
Bolex H16- Possible the best camera out of the bunch(and also the most expensive), but it would be a basic model, with a basic lens...
Bell and Howell 70DR or DL- I heard these mentioned, are they any good?
If you have any information and any of these cameras, or if you have more suggestions, please reply.
[This message has been edited by ComingApart (edited July 07, 2001).]
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I'm selling an Arri 'S' for $800 U.S
If you're interested, e-mail me at [email protected]
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Thanks for the responses, but buying an Arri isn't an option, I addressed that in my post. I'm not wanting to film a major motion picture, I'm just wanting to experiment with 16mm cinematography, and the like, possible shoot a few shorts. Even if I could afford an Arriflex, it would be less than intelligent to spring for one just so I can play around with it. Out of the 3 listed, which would you reccomend? I've about decided to go with the K-3, becasue of price, availability and potential to be upgraded (Super16,sync sound, etc.)
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I'm currently shooting a feature film on DVcam (digital-only due to budget restrictions). Our last film 'Psycho Babble' was shot on super 16 and I have to say I would prefer to shoot on film... film is much superior!
Anyway...why not hire a 16mm camera
for those people in the uk - try vivid.org.uk - birmingham centre for media arts.
james www.undergroundfilmworks.com
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Comingapart, if you're going to buy one of those shitty russian cameras, you'd might as well just stick with Super 8.
NEVER BUY ANYTHING THAT'S RUSSIAN!
I'm not trying to be racist or anything, but these russian cameras are supposed to be pure garbage.
If you really want to buy one of the cheap cameras that you have listed above, go with the Bolex H-16. It's a cheap camera, so don't expect great results. Bolex is a name you can trust, but for just $200 more you could buy an amazing Arri camera.
A top of the line MOS camera. And after experimenting with 16MM, and finding out how much you love it, you're going to wish you bought an Arri S. These things run for about 2.5K (U.S.) on ebay.
Whatever. It's your decision.
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If you are ABSOLUTELY set on the K-3 (and I wouldn't recommend it; go with the Bolex) you must buy it only from Kiev USA; www.kievusa.com
Other sites sell them direct from the Ukranian factory and those are entirely worthless. Kiev USA is a Connecticut-based company that rebuilds and upgrades Russian cameras. They are more expensive, but they produce a working camera. Buy the Bolex
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Finally, I found someone else on this board who is Pro-film.
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As far as the K-3 goes, I'm not too afraid of the fact it's Russian, I've been collecting russian optics and still cameras for a while, so I know what to expect. Other than a few rare fit and finish problems, i've had no problems with russian cameras, other than what other people say...
My point about the Bolex is, I can buy a used, aged H-16 with a decent set of lenses or for the same amount of money I can get a brand new, Pro modified, Super16 converted, crystal synced, warrantied K-3 with plenty of accessories.
I figured my best bet would be to get a basic K-3, that I could upgrade at my whim, instead of getting stuck with an overpriced, practically non-serviceable antique, just my thoughts on the subject, but thanks for the replies.
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Are you saying my Arri 'S' is an antique??
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I was reffering to the Bolex as antique. From what I've heard, read, and from my own experiences with russian film equipment, I'm pretty sure I'll be going with the K-3, most of the common problems associated with the K-3 are also shared by the Arri S. While I'm sure the Arri is a better quality camera, that just can't justify the cost difference, IMO
BTW I've heard that the Arri S can't be converted to Super16, but I know the Super 16 K-3 conversion is pretty popular, can you shed some light on this?
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You're right you can easily convert the K-3 to Super 16, which is basically the only point I like about it.
Converting an Arri S to Super 16 is practically impossible.
Has anyone on this board worked with an Arri SR2 or SR?
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All Krasnogorsk movie and Kiev still cameras need to be reflocked and sealed right out of the factory to prevent light leaks. A good polishing on any parts of the K3 that come in contact with the film is highly recommended. The K3's are also notorious for frame rates "dropping off" after time. The crystal synch motor does help this, but eventually the rotating mirror can loosen and sort of swing on it's own. The camera needs many new and properly installed springs, pull cables, other little parts to prevent this. But, if you're buying crystal synch that should (but might not) solve the problem. A pro-level upgraded kit should cost $1000 - $1400 with a TCS motor. If you're paying less, I would fear that you're getting a factory direct model. Also, I've seen good Beaulieu R16's sell for under a grand. But, really, buy the bolex.
[This message has been edited by robertshults (edited July 08, 2001).]
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People are going to say and feel what they want to, but I bought a brand new straight from the factory non kiev/reeltrading/ncs
K-3 and I absolutely love it. It does jam if I don't load it properly, but I understand so do some Bolexs if one does the same thing. My camera is an unmodified model and it takes pretty phenomenal images. It always absolutely amazes me. I got one for under $200 on ebay from a seller named "Limieu" (not sure if the sellers name is spelled correctly) and I am very happy I did. If you buy one of the "modified" cameras I'm sure you'll be very happy. Or if you buy one the way I did and have it modified at your convienence I'm sure you'll be just as happy. The key for me seems to be that I have to thread the K-3 manually instead of trying to use the auto-thread feature. I own a few 16mm cameras including two(2) Bell and Howells(70-DL & DR) and they're fine, but I love the K-3. American Cinematographer Magazine did a write up on it and some pros liked it and some didn't. I guess thats just the way it is with almost anything. Spike Lee uses his own personal(unmodified) K-3 often. Oh, by the way, if you get a sync motor put in they remove the spring forever, so a broken spring will not be an issue. Just to give you a first hand different opinion.
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Thanks for the responses guys, they've been helpful.
robertshults- I appreciate the info, but I've collected Russian 35mm cameras for a while, Kiev's, Zenit's, etc and while they do have problems, IME, about 1 in 12 might need to be resealed. I'm used to being told all manner of things about my cameras, for some reason people despise Russian equipment, sure it may not be the same as a top of the line pro setup, but I'm not paying top of the line prices either. But once again, I appreciate the info.
Pineapple- Thanks for the reply, I figure I'll buy a standard one, and if it does give me problems, I'll either send it off to get modified or do it myself, and I'll still be better off and have spent less money...
BTW what kind of images do you get from your B&H's? I don't really like the fact that they're non-reflex, but they seem like they would make a good backup cameras.
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They make a great second/crash camera. The images are nice and the non-reflex lens isn't much of a problem. You can also invest in dog leg/type a lenses that have a built in viewer, but they're not cheap. The Bell and Howell 70 series camera was used to film POV footage in PI amongst other films. American Cinematographer Magazine will ocassionally do an article on a feature film that utilizes the Filmo(16 MM) or Eyemo(35 MM) cameras to capture 2nd unit work on a film. Best of luck. I'm sure you'll be happy with the K-3.
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I've shot with an SR2, and I've seen one converted to run S16.
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The Arri SR2 is a modern state of the art piece of equipment that can be modified to S16. The old arri-S is a rugged old piece of machinary that can't be converted. Don't get confused between the two.
A GREAT book is the 16mm Camera Handbook. You can get it from Amazon and it will lay out all the strengths and weaknesses of 16mm cameras, including Eclair, Arri, Bolex, K-3, Cinema Products, Beuelieu etc.
Later
Stephen Chown
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An old Marine who filmed the Pacific battles during WW2 used the B&H and the Kodak K100 cameras--he strongly recommended the K100--lighter, more compact and longer run times per wind up. Great with the wider lenses.
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