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Well here it is...my pigrimage to Meca....I mean Westminster.
I found out Tuesday I have a bladder/kidney infection (pay attention this will become important later).
Wednesday morning I got up around 10 AMand washed my car. I had to be at work by 4 PM and was supposed to work til 1AM. Trying to work was hell with a headache and massive back pain of the kidney stuff. My boss saw this and let me go home early at 10 PM. This allowed Me and my friend Rob to leave about 3-4 hours earlier than we had planned.
I let Rob start out driving so I could try to sleep and relax. We decided to take the slightly longer route to Westminster by going through San Diego instead of through Phoenix. Shortly after crossing into California we realized that we were going to need gas soon and El Centro was the closest place, but it was about 60 miles away. At this point my fuel light is onand i'm hoping we find a gas station quick. Well we finally found one but all the pumps had bags over them but one...and you had to pay first. As I waslked into pay there were signs that said that they were out of regular and the mid 87 and 89 octane. Thank God there was still 92 left. The rest of the trip to Westminster was uneventful, but we were expected to arrive at about 10-10:30 AM. We arrived at about 5:30-6 AM. In the lot was Bretts black R, so we kinda looked it over and noticed my car sits extremely low. At this time Someone comes to the door and peeks out and opens the door and introduces himself as Oscar Jackson. Oscar suggests getting some breakfast before we get started, so we go to McDonalds. This McDonalds seems to be a gathering place for those with Turettes Syndrome. By this time My headache is gone, but my back and kidneys feel like i've been beaten severly.
Next we head back to JR and We go inside and begin talking to Oscar about superchargers and FI theory. About this time a guy with a WRX comes in and asks if there is a kit for his car. Oscar takes his time and explains that he down't do subaru's but suggestedsome places to try and also explained the differences between Roots Blowers, Centrifugal blowers, Screw type blowers, and Turbos. After this Oscar said he wanted to show us around and meet everyone and said to get comfortable and make yourself at home. Then we strapped Reggie (that was the car's name when i bought it from the previous owner) on the dyno and did a baseline run with Safeguard, AEM (GSR version), and everything else i had on it. I had improved my HP a little since my 165 HP run by messing with the fuel pressure, but had no guage to measure it. Our baseline run was 180 HP and 128.5 TQ. We then disconnected the Safeguard and did another run, this time making about 190 HPand 130 TQ. We then removed my AEM and put on a JR intake and filter on the car and ran again, this time with 202 HP and 137.2 TQ. This is where the fun began. We began advancing my timing from 8 where it was originally set (half of the stock setting of 16) and had problems with detonation at anything above 12. We then installed the BTC and began advancing my timing little by little and eventually we ran out of adjustment on the distributor. My Timing is now set at 18 degrees and i'm going to dremmel my distributor mount so I can advance it even further.
In between dyno runs we watched and even gave suggestions and helped as Oscar and Frank worked on fabricating a new supercharger kit. Oscar showed me other things, but i can't tell you about it yet. We also got to listen to Oscar and his mechanics tell stories from old races and projects. Oscar then took my friend and I out to lunch at In-N-Out Burger for animal style burgers and those famous fresh cut fries. While eating we talked more about superchargers, turbos and common mistakes and misconceptions ond of some future plans.
Once we got back from lunch we began some of the more experimental stuff. We started with the new MAP sensor modification and did a few runs, but it was causing a significant drop in power, so Oscar dissappeard for a while and did some research and returned relieved that it was just a minor problem and that he had programmed the black box withthe wrong setting. So far there are only 3 cars with this mod. Unit 000 is on Oscar's R, 001 is on Travis's, and 002 is on Bretts, 003 was a dud and destroyed, but 004 should be on mine soon. It should totally eliminate what little tip in detonation there is left.
Then came the the really exciting new thing which you have all heard rumors of and vague descriptions of what it will do. WE INSTALLED THE V-PACK from Oscar's car into my car did some more runs and saw a tremedous increase in low end torque and hp. We kicked the vtec in as low as 2500 RPMs. Then Oscar unstrapped the car and had me take him for a spin in my car with the V-Pack installed......OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That thing is incredible, and I can't wait for them to be released. Unfortunately I had to take the V-Pack off and give it back, but these two things are but the tip of the iceberg in terms of things to come.
When I left we had run out of time and didn't get a chance to swap out my lower idler pully for the new style "plastic" one. I will be installing that this upcoming Tues or Wed myself as it's not too difficult. The other modification i'm going to be doing to gain a little more HP is to put in a 160 degree thermostat, to help the engine run slightly cooler. By the time I left I felt like one of Oscar's buddies and told him about the ITR expo, and hopefully he'll come out for it. I have a new found respect for the work Oscar and his team does and know that if I ever have a question or a problem he'll be there with a answer or solution. I also know that I'm welcome back there anytime!
As Paul Harvey says: "And now the rest of the story"
We left Jackson Racing and it was time to deal with Southern California Rush hour....Thank God for car pool lanes. We decided to head to San Diego to find a motel so we could crash and burn. At first I felt like I could drive all the way back to Tucson, but halfway to San Diego my body decided otherwise. The only thing that woke me up was this Truck hauling about 10 times more than is legally allowed...i swear this thing was pilled at least 30 feet high with junk and looked insane. We tried to get a picture, but weren't able to. Then I toyed with a GSR and some other guy along the freeway in 5th gear, didn't even really do much, but it was still fun. I was cruising at 80-85 mph and was still getting passed like I was standing still (not that i couldn't go faster, I just didn't want to risk a ticket or worse). After getting into San Diego we attempted to find an easily accesible motel. Something for you people who dont' live in California to know: Just because you can see something from the highway in San Diego, does not mean you can get to it. We finally found a place called the E-Z 8 motel or something like that...after getting through hell to find what was visible from the highway. We then checked in and went for food. Once we got back we ate, and crashed. We awoke to the sound of the FIRE ALARM going off in our room a about 3AM, but it went off after only 3-5 seconds, but i could hear another one in another location still going off. I chalked this up to the notice i'd seen when we checked in that said that we could use the elevators at our own risk do to the posibility that the power grid may go down for an hour or 2 due to the power situation in California. This turned out to be the real deal....THERE WAS A FIRE. We were on the third floor and the fire was too, only a few doors away. We called the front desk and asked whats going on and all they said was they didn't know, they didn't even say to get out of the building or anything. Turns out a matress caught on fire in a recently vacated room and triggered the alarm and sprinklers. Well we had a few hours of sleep and with all this excitement decide we might as well get on the road and avoid all the traffic. So we go to the front desk and complain about our alarm not really going off and the lack of concern for our safety and they refunded our money and we checked out. The rest of the drive was uneventful all the way to Tucson, but the new found power was great climing throught the mountains outside of San Diego.
I do think that running rich so long has killed my secondary O2 sensor, because even after all the work and clearing the previous codes while driving around in Tucson, I threw another CE code...I"m sure it will be the same as before (auxillary emissions control). I'll be talking to Oscar about that on Monday.
In conclusion I learned so much about superchargers and the Typer R and Hondas in general that I can't wait to visit Jackson Racing again.
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Any questions on settings and all that will be answered in this topic thread...I have too much info to post it all right now.
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Ah yes the Sleazy 8 motel. I've been to one of those.
Did you get a chance to take a look at Oscars CRX?
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Marc
1997 Civic EX
The supercharger is gone. Get ready for the turbo.
Want to know why I got rid of the JRSC? http://crx.honda-perf.org/horror/jrsc.html
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Great story and good to hear the car is running better. I am glad to hear something good after all the crap that is said about those guys.
Keep us up to date and get to feeling better soon.
Zach
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94 Civic Coupe/LS Hybrid
JRSC@6psi
Turbo Convert
Import Specialty Automotive (253) 473-2606
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Thanks fastfour...
Something i forgot to add
http://www.eclipsegsx.com/trip.htm
This is my friends account of our trip, and it also has pictures and video of some dyno runs.
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Great story. I'm glad to see that JR went to such lengths to get your car running right. JR has weathered some pretty hefty criticism by us typeR owners. I firmly believe that it was a mistake to package and offer the typeR kit, with all of its problems, for sale to the public, and it failed miserably to live up to the advertised expectations. You know, every company makes mistakes. But, devoting the time and resources to remedy the mistake and win back the trust of its customers, now that's the mark of a truly excellent company.
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WOW! what a trip, I plan to do the same route without my car http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/frown.gif (too far) and visit the facility. Great story, keep the info comming.
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Way to go Spunkster...
I am glad that you are enjoying the HP levels that you deserve.
Keep us posted on the particulars (Tuning settings) when you have time.
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'93 Civic Si H/B with B18C1, JRSC @ 8psi
Best 1320: 12.68 at 110 mph
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To answer Holdens Questions:
1) Yes the J&S was causeing majot power loss. At about 7700 RPM it was hearing eaither detonation caused by the restrictiveness of the AEM, or engine noise. At this point i was making 175hp, but it sudenly dropped to 150, and then started climbing agin until it peaked at readline at 180hp.
I will be scanning my dyno runs in soon
2) The switch of intake gained another 10 hp amd slmost 5-10 tq.
3) The JR intake is a large diameter intake and it is erelatively short. I believe it is at least 3 inches possible 3.5 inches in diameter. ANd the filter is similar to an RS Akimoto, but much higher quality. In the nose of the filster it has a open end with additional filtering material. It also has a great velocity stack to help smooth the air flow. Also the screen on the filter is higher quality than most other filters, as it is stainless, as opposed to mild steel. I actually saw an RS Akimoto filter that had been in the shop that looked identical, but the thickness of the velocity stack was so thin that it has cracked. EVEN THOUGH SOMETHING LOOKS THE SAME IT MOST LIKELY IS NOT!!!
4) There was verly little J&S activity if any. I had it set to max of 20 degrees of retard, and set to retard cylinders individually. My guess was it was only lighting up 2 lights. Due to the angle of the sun I could not really see if they were lit or not.
5) I'm going to see if I can get printouts of ALL my dyno runs just so I have something to show you guys and to explain better what i'm talking about.
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So the J&S was costing you 10HP?
And the AEM to JR intake gained another 10HP?
What are the details on the JR intake again?
How much activity (retard) did you see on the J&S?
Oh yeah, do you have any HP numbers for the different timing settings?
Thanks,
Greg
[This message has been edited by Holden (edited January 27, 2001).]
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Did Oscar offer an explanation as to why your car was losing power with the J&S and was it taking timing out during that 180HP run?
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Rafe...
It appears that, if Spunksters observations are in fact correct and NO lights glowed on the display, my hypothesis about the J&S's conservativism and over-protectiveness may hold some merit.
What do you think ???
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'93 Civic Si H/B with B18C1, JRSC @ 8psi
Best 1320: 12.68 at 110 mph
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I'm not hearing any detonation at tip in, but it is lean for a second at tip in, but once i get the MAP black box in there it should solve that.
The J&S does seem to over retard, and then when it releases the timing it does it so rapidly that it causes more detonation. That or it's hearing noise from the vtec and then retards when it doesn't need to, and that start it in an oscilation.
I really think that the BTC should be the fist thing added, and then a Safeguard if you are worried, but my safeguard is disconnected at the momment, and my timing is at 18. it totally makes the car feel like it was meant to have the blower...you almost dont' need vtec, but when you do hit vtec, it just gets better.
I"m gonna try connecting the safeguard again i think, but put it at the minimum setting ans see what happens with the BTC
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Spunkster:
I checked out the movies of your car on the dyno. Maybe the mic is a bit muffled, but it doesn't sound like your car is too loud with the intake on there (a good thing, IMO!). As you know, an AEM on an NA B16/B18 gets really loud in VTEC.
Was the JR intake noticeably louder than the AEM?
Thanks,
Sonny
[This message has been edited by Sonnyballs (edited January 28, 2001).]
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I love the sound of the AEM on my GSR. It is really not that loud at all, at least in the car.
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Jim,
The J&S doesn't take out timing without indicating it on the display. If there are no lights on the display, it's not affecting timing. OK, I haven't tested this, but unless there's a significant bug in its software that's been there for the last 10 years, I'm inclined to believe John on this issue. That's not to say it isn't possible, it's just not where I'd first focus my attention in trying to figure out what happened. I know there are issues with the J&S over-reacting depending on where the knock sensor is mounted and the sensitivity setting. I've found it to work best on my car with the sensitivity set in the range of 10 to 10:30. At this level, it retards timing when I turn the BTC down. At levels of 11:00 and higher, random engine noise sets it off.
We don't know exactly what happened. Spunkster isn't even sure, so how can we pass judgement based on his observations. Spunkster says some lights *may* have lit up, so you can't conclude that the J&S was pulling timing without reporting the fact. We do know that the J&S was set for 20 degrees maximum retard. That means timing is retarded in two degree increments, so if there were just two LEDs illuminated, the J&S was pulling out 4 degrees of timing from one or more cylinders. This can amount to a significant power loss on the order of what Spunkster reported. For all we know, it was working correctly, hearing a tiny bit of inaudible knock during Spunkster's dyno runs and retarding the timing accordingly.
Spunkster,
Were you using the OE knock sensor or the one supplied with the J&S? If you were using the one supplied by J&S, where was it installed? What was the sensitivity setting? Did Oscar offer an explanation as to why the J&S was reacting the way it was and/or affecting your dyno numbers?
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Rafe,
I am not passing judgement on the J&S... it is not necessary for you to come to it's rescue from me.
What I am saying is simply what I have been ALL along: The J&S Safeguard is not a power-creating device, but rather a protective component for the engine. Giving up a few ponies to err on the side of conservativism is not necessarily bad... however, accepting this and not bitching when one's dyno numbers seem sub-standard doesn't seem to be happening often enough.
In my broad observation of the members on this board, the fastest cars here DO NOT have a J&S Safeguard. This leads me to believe one of two possibilities: A) The J&S is so sensitive that tuning it properly so that it DOES NOT adversly affect your HP curve may only be done on a dyno... or B) It is in fact conservative and one must be willing to sacrifice a few ponies to shield the motor from potentially harmful detonation.
Rafe: maybe you could help us with a little experiment. Take your car to a dyno facility and make TWO pulls. One as the car sits... and then a second with the J&S turned off.
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'93 Civic Si H/B with B18C1, JRSC @ 8psi
Best 1320: 12.68 at 110 mph
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How many runs were done with the J&S on and showed this lower hp rating? One I bet. No lights but problems at high rpms? Maybe? I think this is way too sketchy to draw any conclusions. This is the type of shit that misleads people.
As far as making power, I still think this unit can be used to set your car a little more aggressive but at times it might lower power if the car is detonating for whatever factors be it a hotter day, bad tank of gas or something similar. I put down 231 WHP with a J&S installed and aside from me turning it off for my melted piston run, the thing was an awesome piece on my car.
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Sonny:
Any car with a super charger is going to be quieter than in NA form...the blower mutes the sound of vtec. There was more blower whine with the JR intake.
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rjaffey:
As for not seeing any visible lights on the J&S monitor, it was in tha sun such that you could not see if they were lit or not....they probably were jusging from past dyno runs.
I was using the stock knock sensor, i do have the JA& knock sensor installed, but never hooked it up. I mounted it in the spot where the header mounts to the back of the engine. But i never used it. I figured Honda knew the best place to put a knock sensor. I spoke to John at the time I installed my J&S and he said there was a place on the front of the engine, but he admitted that the instructions were based on an 89 integra.
Oscar explained that the J&S was probably hearing normal engine noise that is present when in vtec near redline.
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BurntGSR:
I have made numerous runs with the J&S at different settings, on one i even used 100 octane race gase and set the J&S to the minimum setting , with the same results.
Don't get me wrong here, with a properly tuned car the J&S is almost not a necesity, but for most cars out there is is a life saver. I plan to recconect it and keep it at the lowest seting possible and let you guys know what happens. Seeing as how i'm now running beyond the stock timing, i'm intersted to see what happens. Also keep in mind this is a ITR with a b18c5, so the head is a little different noise wise.
[This message has been edited by Spunkster (edited January 28, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Spunkster (edited January 28, 2001).]
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Thanx for sharing your experience in SoCal. In-N-Out burgers is one of SoCal's best landmarks!
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Romans 5:1,John 3:16
96 red GSR w/mods..like a JRSC.
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In-n-out is crap, it's all about FATBURGER!
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spunkster:
Don't get me wrong here, with a properly tuned car the J&S is almost not a necesity, but for most cars out there is is a life saver.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you go over at club si, I swear, they ought to have "Blown Engine of the Week" as there seems to be one dying every 7 days.
I haven't done a search on it, but I don't think any of them were running a safeguard.
(okay, I think most were Turbos, but that doesn't mean a J&S might of saved them a lot a trouble)
I wonder if maybe there's someway you could dampen the sensitivity of a knock sensor, if you guys think it's reacting inappropriately in some cases -- I'm not surprized at people coming up with new solutions here, as you guys seem a fairly smart bunch overall.
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by reddelsol:
If you go over at club si, I swear, they ought to have "Blown Engine of the Week" as there seems to be one dying every 7 days.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yup...and the sad part is that most do not learn from their mistakes. They toss the thing back together with no Safeguard and expect to have no troubles. Crazy! There are some smart people over there, but some of these people with grenaded motors don't seem to be giving much thought to how to prevent it from happening again.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
I haven't done a search on it, but I don't think any of them were running a safeguard.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't think a single person there was running a Safeguard.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
I wonder if maybe there's someway you could dampen the sensitivity of a knock sensor, if you guys think it's reacting inappropriately in some cases -- I'm not surprized at people coming up with new solutions here, as you guys seem a fairly smart bunch overall.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well...the way I see it, I would much rather risk losing some power because of the J&S being too sensitive than risk replacing my block because I had no protection at all. The knock sensor can be moved around and the sensitivity can be adjusted. IMO, it'd be much more desirable to deal with making the Safeguard less sensitive than to replace my pistons and rods!
Anyway...Spunkster, I hope you can get this issue with your Safeguard ironed out. Please keep us all posted. http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/smile.gif
Cheers,
Sonny
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Good job! I know the trip from OJ's to San Diego well....from San Clemente to Oceanside if your not going 100 mph your in the way! I'm glad it worked out, sorry to hear about your ailment and hope your better soon. I'll do my best to get to that track day at Buttonwillow. It's a fun track, if anyone hasn't been before.
